Amnesiac Mafia: The Movie! That's a Wrap!

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: pink ball

I'll just add a little motivation then.

[Thestatusquo]

Std wya?

[DragonEater70]

Well as I said I missed your post.
Anyway I am not feeling like defending myself today since I am apparently THAT townie (I think I've had 4 people calling me town so far) so I will have to decline the offer to go into defense mode.

Seriously though, if you read my completed games, I basically almost always get a wagon formed on me during RVS (I'm what they call limbait), but this game I got people townreading me instead. So I was quite shocked.

the next step is to think critically about WHY that is.

If you don't feel like you're doing anything that townie and people are calling you townie, one would think you'd be interested into delving into those town reads to try to read the players professing a town read on you, but I don't really see that step in the thought process happening here.

If you're town scum know you're town, after all, right? So wouldn't a too easy town read be a place you would want to start looking?

You know, I actually didn't think about this at all.
Let me have a look at the people who were townreading me this game and see if there's anyone scummy there (though tbh I'm already voting Titus who said I've pocketed her when I randomly townread GiF).

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

You're probably town!

Klick, why?

[DragonEater70]

Oh wait Klick has already answered.

[DragonEater70]

Okay I just read through Klick's ISO, and initially it felt a bit weird:
It is kinda weird that Klick gave like 4 townreads with minimal explanation and no scumreads. It feels very easy to fake, I guess. And none of their posts really stood out for me at the start.

But then I continued reading and I saw those posts, which have a genuine town mindset IMO:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

You're probably town!

super why?

This doesn't feel at all like the desired opening play for scum

I've played like 3ish games in a row with Titus where she has been scum and in this game I'm getting a zeal from her that I haven't felt in other games. I think she's engaged her town solving brain in a way that she wasn't quite there for in the last few games I've been in with her.

It could be Team Mafia making her tryhard even if she's scum but I'm enjoying her content so far regardless and am fine to boost what she's currently doing for the thread.

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine
It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

[DragonEater70]

@GiF could you elaborate on the townread you jad on me as well?

[DragonEater70]

Also Klick, your readlist is so interesting to me. Why am I in first place? And why is GiF so low?

[DragonEater70]

Ugh god I really don't like dragon's response there

vote: Dragon

Not to reiterate the things that Shea just said, but I do agree with him on this. You never once questioned four people calling you town seemingly with no good reason. And then calling yourself limbait, ehhhhhhh

Just feels like a way to preliminary poo-poo a wagon on you

Read my completed games - I've been called limbait several times on D1, different games.

[DragonEater70]

Which wasn’t true since I correctly townread you our last game together

Indeed you did and I applaud you.

[Frozen Angel]

But I'm not all that fond of just brazenly declaring you're unhappy for not being scum.

Do you think the colored one was an act/could be an act?

Not sure what you mean by act. Firebringer does not need to act brazen as scum, he is. I would not put it past him to rub it in our faces like this.

Dragon entered sounding kind of aggressive?

Elaborate red one.

I've seen Dragon's town games, and got the impression that he was more relaxed in them. I would have expected him to join in on the joke for a laugh, not to tell Firebringer to knock it off. There is a sort of nervousness I get from his play, and I wonder why that is.

In this setup, there are no true power roles. Everyone is equal. Even if you die with a power role, someone else may randomly get it the next day. How does everyone feel about a day one massclaim?

I don't think its actually scummy by nature that you suggested this but I really wanna know your thought process to reach this conclusion.

I see you already found my later post where I explained. Yes, in retrospect it was too good to be true, but for a moment I thought the benefits might outweigh the downsides.

So why you did not like him stating he hated not ranging mafia if you think it's truthful?

nervousness is different from anger I suppose. I think that makes sense with what you posted earlier about your view on him though.

Do you usually mech spec and try to break setups right at start of games?

[Frozen Angel]

oo emotional defense from dunn really. no try to sort back FB even though the first poke was him going on FB tail.

That isn't emotional defense.

It really was a little bit emotional tbh. Like you had counter points but it felt like you're angry at FB for how he went that avenue on you. I actually think it's a sign that the argument between you and him was natural but a very weak sign for that

[Frozen Angel]

I think titus is town.

why?

[Frozen Angel]

yeah this is actually try harding mode on FB

This was def not a try hard post ur commenting on. This was me playing around

yeah well, I'm just saying you were playing around really seriously then. It felt a little bit out of character for you to make that jump on page 2. just a thing I noted to keep in mind.

breaking the rvs wall or trying to provoke reactions, regardless gotta note it down.

[Frozen Angel]

No. Scum usually doesn't propose a massclaim the way Feysal did.

How do they usually propose it?

They don't.

they were like yeah lets mass claim

and then I asked mode and scum has fake claim so it wont work

Like I can't be the only one who thinks that doesn't look like a genuine thought process. why would they start mech specing assuming scum doesn't have fake claim and setup is breakable as town?

but then are they the kinda scum player who would fake such thing just for you and others to call it a town tell? Thats why I asked meta about this. seems like no one has any of it.

[Frozen Angel]

@Frozen Angel
Alisae is demanding your world view. All of your reads. ALL OF THEM

I don't vomit reads, they gotta be produced.

I'm actually also really busy on sundays, Mondays and tuesdays and gonna try to work on putting 2 and 2 together in Wednesday when I'm not just skimming the game

[Frozen Angel]

Firebringer town

did you came out of vla just to drop this read? does this mean you're caught up?

No

Hello Feysal! You seem like an interesting player and I'm looking forward to playing with you

I've not read particularly carefully up to this point as I'm still on V/LA, but is there anyone so far that has made you feel that they are particularly likely to be town?

yeah this doesn't feel right you're either here or you're not. whats the point of reminding the v/la if you're dropping reads and responding? just to not take heat and steer stuff?

If you'd genuinely like an explanation, I've been at Eastermeet this weekend - literally on vacation with low access. I'm excited for this game and am eager to play, but I have been spending most of my time focusing on the meet I was at. There were a couple of points during the meet when I had some down time, in which I decided to check in on this on my phone with poor data reception. To be clear, V/LA does not mean 'you're either here or you're not'.

PEdit: I've given a few and I'm catching up on the rest now
Because I'm no longer V/LA :O

vla actually means I cant check and post in game so don't prod me but fair enough.

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like

FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine

It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

I don't like to self meta but since you brought it up here it goes

I ask a lot of questions to find a thought process error in what people say at different times. Someone is portraying they feel like this about something at some point, when asked in 3 different manners about it they say something that has a conflict with what they portrayed first = they were faking that initial though and they don't own it.

if you find a conflicting pattern of thought process you caught scum.

Whose reads are you accusing me of copying here exactly? I don't think anyone else was pushing you for vla (actually drixx wrote a line for that too that I remember) and not vla, or sorted the 3 way of dun FB freysel like me upon that skim?

so why dropping that I'm copying people read without actually saying who and what you think I'm copying to "look genuine"?

also it was a catch up so its pretty much copying what everyone else was saying/asking them questions about them and some raw ideas I had on top of my head while skimming it

[DragonEater70]

I have also had a look at your past games trying to get a feel for your play, because I have some mixed feelings about it. This would not happen to be a game where you don't feel safe expressing your sincere thoughts, would it?

It's unclear if this is aimed at me or Dunn. I assume me? In that case I am definitely expressing my sincere thoughts much more freely than usual.

Yes, it was aimed at you, and now that I have your answer, it only worries me more. I have seen your past town games, and in them you have mostly seemed more relaxed than here. There was one exception though where you appeared more reserved, and according to your own notes PT, it was because you suspected the towncore in that game had scum in it, making you feel unsafe. But if that is not the case here, then yes, you are worrying me.

Wow, you've been doing some serious research I see. Well done!
I really don't know why you perceive me as being nervous/unrelaxed here, because in fact I am much more relaxed about my position than in any of my completed games (except the one where I suspected a scum in the towncore, where I was widely townread).
I do however agree that my playstyle is very different here, and if I'm allowed to say my opinion, it's probably just less tryharding on my side, mainly because I am very busy IRL with some exciting things so I don't really have the time or motivation to commit myself to the game fully.
It might change though around Thursday.

On the other hand, FB's scumcase is based on something that IS scummy on Dunn's part, but could easily be pushed by scum and therefore doesn't warrant a TR on FB.

I have posted my take on that case here, and frankly, it sounds not only bad but actively malicious. So what do you like about that case?

I'll check that post out in a bit.

[Frozen Angel]

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

Dunn, I literally just said that. You think town!LLD uses her precious words to restate what I already said?

VOTE: Dunn

@Klick, Thanks for the response. Will try to review in an hour

yeah i actually like klick trying to meta me with that. seems like he really tried for finding references for what he was saying actually tbh even though that is not me copying anyone or dropping tones of questions. It actually is me trying to not jump to a conclusion and see how stuff are in a scum game. as town though I also analyze and drop questions and I don't make conclusions till I have em. have you ever seen me play in a game as town?

btw for the record in that other game I was not trying to discredit you. I was trying to show that I'm analyzing what you said (which I would have same analysis as town still reading that post) and to drop questions that would fake how I actually try and find things that have a conflict with a town perspective but also for real analyzing/questioning you. Your VCA conclusion there felt like it could be coming from an informed perspective there. that game was multiball and I genuinely was scum hunting.

@titus where did you go after an hour. why saying nothing about klick homework?

[Frozen Angel]

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

Why was klick scum leaning me? explain their "case" in your own words please

[Frozen Angel]

oo emotional defense from dunn really. no try to sort back FB even though the first poke was him going on FB tail.

That isn't emotional defense.

It really was a little bit emotional tbh. Like you had counter points but it felt like you're angry at FB for how he went that avenue on you. I actually think it's a sign that the argument between you and him was natural but a very weak sign for that

about this

I really think you were not trying to sort FB back there that feels out of place. I care more about that then about the emotion in it.

[Klick]

Firebringer town

did you came out of vla just to drop this read? does this mean you're caught up?

No

Hello Feysal! You seem like an interesting player and I'm looking forward to playing with you

I've not read particularly carefully up to this point as I'm still on V/LA, but is there anyone so far that has made you feel that they are particularly likely to be town?

yeah this doesn't feel right you're either here or you're not. whats the point of reminding the v/la if you're dropping reads and responding? just to not take heat and steer stuff?

If you'd genuinely like an explanation, I've been at Eastermeet this weekend - literally on vacation with low access. I'm excited for this game and am eager to play, but I have been spending most of my time focusing on the meet I was at. There were a couple of points during the meet when I had some down time, in which I decided to check in on this on my phone with poor data reception. To be clear, V/LA does not mean 'you're either here or you're not'.

PEdit: I've given a few and I'm catching up on the rest now
Because I'm no longer V/LA :O

vla actually means I cant check and post in game so don't prod me but fair enough.

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like

FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine

It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

I don't like to self meta but since you brought it up here it goes

I ask a lot of questions to find a thought process error in what people say at different times. Someone is portraying they feel like this about something at some point, when asked in 3 different manners about it they say something that has a conflict with what they portrayed first = they were faking that initial though and they don't own it.

if you find a conflicting pattern of thought process you caught scum.

Whose reads are you accusing me of copying here exactly? I don't think anyone else was pushing you for vla (actually drixx wrote a line for that too that I remember) and not vla, or sorted the 3 way of dun FB freysel like me upon that skim?

so why dropping that I'm copying people read without actually saying who and what you think I'm copying to "look genuine"?

also it was a catch up so its pretty much copying what everyone else was saying/asking them questions about them and some raw ideas I had on top of my head while skimming it

I have to go to work in a minute, but two quick questions:

Can you give me an link or two of times you successfully found scum with this technique?
Can you give me an example or two of times you thought you caught scum with this technique, but were wrong?

[DragonEater70]

@Feysal, I read your case on FB and I agree that their push on Dunn is scummy.
VOTE: Firebringer

[DragonEater70]

@Everyone - I know I have some more content to catch up on, but that will have to wait for later.

[Klick]

You think this is distinct from their town game? I've never played with FA at all I don't think and I understand the general point you're making but I think I'm missing why this isn't also what their town game would look like?

I don't actually know FA's town meta so it's an incomplete meta read, I might go and get a more full picture of how she plays when I have more time

Just conceptually it's the same idea that made me scumread her in Cosmos, and I'm getting the same feeling about her posting here as I was with her posting there

But then also I'm much more confident definitively finding town than finding scum