Newbie 2119: Pictures of People Wearing Cool Hats | GAME OVER

[Black]

Well exactly. Why didn’t you think she was lying?
Or why didn’t you entertain the

possibility

at the time that she

could

have been lying?

That’s what I’m saying.

There’s a difference between believing Bella and clearing her, and you were suggesting the latter.

She was cleared to me until there was a cc. That's pretty much how I handle PR claims

[Black]

Just look at the post AV. I even preface by saying "if Bella is telling the truth"

So if Bella is telling the truth, we're either in A1 or B3 of the setup

So we either have a Doc/Cop or a Doc/Tracker

If there is anyone in the game that is a Jailkeeper, Neighbor, or Mason... I think you should speak up but

don't claim

. Just say you know someone is lying

If you are the Cop/Tracker and you're name isn't Delta, you should also speak up I think. In the same format

[Venmar]

@venmar nooo that’s not what I’m saying ahhh

I mean yes that could be the play but I really don’t think it’s the case

What I’m saying is

At the point of blacks post, before delta flipped, and before there were any cc’s

Town do not know if the lack of cc’s means Bella is clear because an un-cc’d cop (which delta was at the time) means we’re in column a (cop+doc) or column c (just cop)

Black seemed to know(?) the lack of cc clears Bella

My question is whether this is because black is informed about the setup (because she knows bella is town and that we’re in column a)

And look. Some of the patch stuff seems super weird in retrospect, and I find myself nodding along with blacks case, I’m just having a hard time seeing past the setup stuff so please if like I think maybe dragon is best placed to give me a read on that so I know if I’m being crazy???

Ninjad: ahh guys you’re not getting this

I’m not saying Bella pulled off some crazy scum move

I’m asking if blacks play shows she knew before she should have known (as town) that Bella was being truthful.

Maybe I am just being paranoid / caught on some morsel of logic that isn’t going anywhere. I think we’re in a good enough position that it doesn’t really matter tbh but that’s where my head is stuck currently.

Ahhhh. Okay I get it now. I'm sorry. I am pretty smoothbrained usually.

I will say that I wasn't around at the end of D1; I made my last post on #1344 and then went to work, and when I came home from work the day had ended. My last post predated Bella's doc claim. This means that at the very, very least, if I was a PR, I wasn't around between Bella's claim and day end to counterclaim if I was. So at the very least, Black did make the assumption that there were no CC's despite me not having posted yet.

That said, I feel like this is circumstantial evidence, I feel like town could make this kind of an early conclusion as well, and trusting claims without CC's even before everyone has posted isn't necessarily scummy unless I'm not reading enough into it?

[AurorusVox]

I might just be getting hung up on something meaningless tbh. This is kinda what happened when I led town against omi and lost us our perfect victory. In fact it was almost exactly the same to do with setup spec.

Arghhhh

Ninjad; @bella yes I think you’re understanding but maybe got one too many nots in there?

Town!black should not clear Bella by lack of cc because it could be 1pr 1vt
Scum!black knows Bella is truthful and slips up by clearing her due to lack of cc


Ninjad; @black, let me look at that in the timeline. Appreciate you engaging with me on this rather than just dismissing it ha

[Black]

If we can somehow rule out AV here then we can turn this into a 1v1 between me and patch. I'll even volunteer to go first if the thread wants that but when I flip town then you have to flip patch

That's assuming we can rule out AV here, which I haven't been able to do yet (granted I haven't tried hard. I just got to work and haven't looked very deep in his Delta associations)

Bringing this to the new page for posterity

[Black]

Ninjad; @black, let me look at that in the timeline. Appreciate you engaging with me on this rather than just dismissing it ha

I would engage you here as wolf or town, fwiw. I don't think it's a good point against me

[Venmar]

AV, I think if Black is scum it's not because of jumping to the conclusion we were in a Cop+Doc setup prior to me being able to post. It's a thought process I'd make (and did make, lol, just after N1 but I could've seen myself doing it D1 too) and I'm town. It's supporting evidence at best and I think Black is likely to be scum mostly because of the associates with Delta and other stuff independently.

[Black]

The associatives between Delta and I look awful. And looking over his ISO it feels like he was pocketing me D1 and I'm kinda upset I didn't see it

I basically lost the game for me/Delta if I'm scum by defending him so much. I just don't make this play as wolf. I'm more careful than that. /wifom

[Black]

I'm in a meeting (that could've been an email smh) but once I get out I'm going to look through AV/Delta interactions to see if there's any way we can narrow this down to me and patch

[Black]

Wait, can we win this without ruling AV out here?

7 alive.
Lim me, Mafia makes a kill
5 alive D3. Lim patch, if town then Mafia makes a kill
3 alive D4. Lim AV

Yeah I think town just wins here unless Dragon/Venmar are deepwolfing

[Black]

Ok, the meeting is over. Imma grab some lunch then try to sift through AV's iso

[Bellaphant]

TBf I tr Delta.. annoyingly my brain told me one of delta/venmar was town and I picked wrong

[Black]

Sry guys, got caught up in other stuff. I'll do this today before I leave work in ~5 hours

Patches where you at?

[Venmar]

TBf I tr Delta.. annoyingly my brain told me one of delta/venmar was town and I picked wrong

It's okay we all make mistakes

[patchwork]

Six notifications yall are fuckign wild
anyways VOTE: black, the associatives look REALLY BAD and if it's not black it's happy

[patchwork]

Time to read back, hope that wasn't a hammer

[patchwork]

Okay Bella can live then. Nobody counterclaimed her right? Y'all really went big mode just as I left for work and had all the fun of flipping Delta without me

Yeah lmao I told yall not to hammer while I was gone

[patchwork]

Just reads like scum trying to setup a townie elim for D2 because they know Delta is gonna flip scum, especially considering Patch doesn't actually scumread me and I think is throwing me out as the partner mainly due to PoE.

fucking how
i'm "throwing you out" as a partner because of the associatives between you two.... also, keep in mind that was way earlier lmao.

[patchwork]

Alright. So the sequence starts with Delta's 1010. You don't have to read this whole reads list. The important takeaway here is that Delta rides the fence on patch here and ends up giving her a townlean.

(Patch uses this to TR Delta in 1013 but this isn't really part of why this is weird, I just found this interesting. Delta/patch have almost the exact same reads here)

In 1015 I ask patch "Do you think you would feel any different about Delta's post if he didn't TR you?"

Patch responds in 1022 that "he's not TRing me"
Then they quickly respond in 1025 "i lied delta is townreading me. id probably still like it

but ur right that the flip on me is weird

"

The blue part is for emphasis, because this sequence is all about this "flip" on patch

Patch is referring to my post 1019 where I say that Delta's "flip flop on patch is kinda weird"

I was mistaken in 1019 and there was no flip flop on patch. For some reason patch just goes along with this imaginary flip-flop by Delta. I don't realize that I'm wrong about the flip-flop until Delta points it out several pages later in 1197 - "What is the flipflop you're referring to in #1019? I'm leaning slight town on them but I'm pretty cautious of the vibes I'm getting because I know I'm getting the vibes from meta play. When I look at it objectively it feels weird to me, which I think is partially because it's not layered prose for me to dig through, rather short bursts of text. On Patch, I'm leaning town over null by a nose."

A key takeaway from this post is that Delta doesn't call out patch for saying "the flip on me is weird". He only invokes me about it. He purposefully avoided asking patch to elaborate on the flip and why it's weird

I think this snap defense from patch... "he's not TRing me" gives off nervous energy. Then they fold and say they agree with me on a Delta flip-flop that doesn't exist

He was scumreading me earlier though??? Like I'm pretty sure he commented I was null-scum or something

[patchwork]

Like idk maybe I was wrong but I definitely do remember him commenting on me

[patchwork]

The problem with Delta's reads in #1010 is that in the paragraph about his read on Patch, he gives a mostly non-committal townlean, yes, but he also contradicts himself at least twice in the same post by saying Patch calling happy newbtown doesn't reflect well on Patch and he disliked Patch's townreading of Vox. Delta's own reads on Patch weren't the most consistent, and it's possible that Black read the whole post and saw the townlean paragraph on Patch but also remembered the scumlean comments elsewhere in the post and interpreted it as a flip-flop mostly accurately.

As for Patch, no offense to them but they do seem like a pretty oblivious player and I feel like if you told them that Delta was doing X, they will believe you unless they take the time to fact check it for themselves. It's possible Patch skimmed Delta's 1010 and saw the negative comments about them and thought Delta wasn't TReading them, and then you pointed out Delta was, and Patch felt gaslight and just agreed in 1025. The whole "nervous energy" is also mostly null to me since that's just the vibe I get from a lot of their posts, they're very erratic and scatterbrained in general.

....did you have to call me out in the second paragraph

[patchwork]

i think i'm willing to compromise on venmar and delta (though delta to a muchh smaller degree)

i think i'm willing to compromise on venmar and delta (though delta to a muchh smaller degree)

This is so weird. Patch had delta as a top tier scumread and Venmar as "null leaning town" but they aren't as willing to compromise on Delta?

Why would I not want to compromise on my second largest scumread (at the time)
Are you twisting my words here or what

[patchwork]

To add to that, Patch lists Venmar as an "ultranull" here. Why would she be less willing to compromise on a scumread than an "ultranull" read?

BECAUSE IF IT'S A SCUMREAD I'M MORE SURE ABOUT IT????? WHAT DO YOU NOT GET

[patchwork]

Patch's reasons for scumreading me I think are purely PoE and non-existent ftr. I guess I'm just a boring player.

yeah it's basically just PoE i am very sorry

[patchwork]

honestly i'm not really sure on who i tr/sr. i want to townread dragon really badly, but dear god are his posts just... not hitting the bar that they usually do. like, in terms of pure vibes, yeah, it feels towny, but then when you factor in what he's actually saying you (i) realize that someone needs to slap the rose-tinted glasses off my face, because i feel like i'm just far too attached to dragon from our previous games.

yeah, that works. thank you for the offer.

yes, vox is my strongest tr. iamveryhappy is also up there.

This is shortly after leaving Delta out of their early townblock. Up to this point patch has only dropped TRs on Delta. Why are they refusing to include him in town pools?

I didn't want to because I'm pretty sure at that point (pg 23?) I was already more suspicious of delta
keep in mind I made comments about his play somewhere around pg 12 13 about how it wasn't The Same