Amnesiac Mafia: The Movie! That's a Wrap!

[Drixx]

The emotion seems real tbh.

I agree but do you think it's frustrated townie real or caught scum real?

This is a better version of my last post

This feels like legitimate frustrated FA here. I can say this from bitter experience and the fact that I'm fairly sure FA no longer considers me a friend.

In your experience with her can you recall a time where she's gotten frustrated as caught scum?

In my experience, FA doesn't fake this kind of posting as scum. My experience is dated to be sure, but this feels like town FA.

[Frozen Angel]

I don't know

I never tried sorting a frozen angel in my life.

But you know better than anyone else the choices you make when you're town vs when you're scum. What do you do about making arguments that you KNOW aren't true when you're scum because you have to push falsehoods? What is authentic in your town game that you notice you're unable to replicate when you're scum? Etc. Etc.

Those things are way more relevant to sorting your alignment than getting into pointless arguments about the weeds.

But that is still you dodging my questions regarding what you accused me of.

what is me being soulless and how you determined it? what reads do you believe I posted and why you think I don't believe them?

I don't know it's a feeling I had reading your posts and I haven't deeply analysed it. When I read your analysis of your reads it is missing a level of *belief* that is observable in your posting, because it's all logical arguments and only logical arguments without your own assumptions or perspective. It's a holistic point that applies to all of your deeply-exained reads and not the nitty-gritty details that you want to discuss.

sure since you're asking me to talk about myself again

as town I'm concerned about two things:
- finding scum by analyzing everything when I can and by getting as much as I can out of people with questions
- responding to any concerns players have about me being town

as scum I would play to fake the two attidues above. like anyone else playing. In general as scum I wouldn't care if I was about to case my partner if they are doing something I can find scummy and I would defend against people scum reading me by either discrediting their cases or pushing them back.

in general I ask a lot, I engage a lot, and I sort better when I'm directly involved in a convo with someone when town and I play fearless when scum. my scum hunting is based on patterns of actions/reactions not singular action/reaction judgements.

take out whatever you want from that or double check with people who actually sorted me before in different games.

and in general I don't drop a hypothesis about someone being scum to scum read them or town read them. I put 2+2s together and see if it all in one picture makes sense as town or scum. calling my reads soulless cause I'm evaluating patterns of actions logically is ... oki?

but going that far for calling them soulless?!

You think I logically evaluated dragoneater and logically think they are scum without believing it. But my logic holds? if it does why you think they are town and my read is faked by a scum me rather than a town with a different perspective/playstyle than you?

[Drixx]

Part of the distinction to me is that caught scum emotion DOES frequently feel fake to me. In the sense that they know they are bad so everything is filtered through that lens. Even if a scum player is legitimately frustrated by being "caught for the wrong reasons" as people say there is always that in the background.

For what its worth I tend to think caught for the wrong reasons is kind of a bullshit thing in general.

In my experience town gets just as mad if not more mad when they are being scum read for reasons they think are illegitimate than scum does and in fact it happens more often because town is way more prone to think people scum reading them is illegitimate because they know they're town.

I always got around this by just working myself into a raw frenzy for real. That's why I hated when people would accuse me of "fake rage." Fake rage isn't a thing that usually happens, and it was never artificial with me. My *motivations* were sometimes illegitimate, but I would definitely crank myself up to eleven until I got to the point I couldn't return. Like I'd be full of shit about something, hand shaking while I screamed at somebody, then I'd be in the scum PT telling Katsuki how I was so pissed off I just wanted to replace out. Like, it didn't matter that the *initial* reason for the irritation wasn't town, I'd open up the floodgate and it'd just be thunderdome from there. And then there'd be the other times where it was personal fury instead of "lol kuribo mad" anger, which as mastina once pointed out were two very different things, the latter being cartoonish and comical, the former being an ugly toxic thing that made everyone uncomfortable.

Ah, I realize I'm probably an outlier in that.

I think you're better at rage than most people.

I'll +1 that.

[Pink Ball]

Don't these two statements contradict each other?

Yes:

I said that it felt like that you were trying to do that but that's not what I thought.

I'm not a native english speaker, this happens sometimes

[kuribo]

Frankly, I think that FA's outburst is largely justified at the very least in her own mind. I'd be pissed if I put a bunch of work into ISO'ing people and trying to catch up and sort the game state, and then having it brushed away as "souless." Okay, and don't get me wrong, if that's your opinion then it's your opinion. I disagree, I feel like the ISOs especially at the very least had conclusions that you could draw from her thought process. This isn't even a comment on the effort of putting together the ISOs: The thoughts and the reads she's drawn from them are right there on the page.

Are they legitimate conclusions? Perhaps, perhaps not. But it's definitely not soulless.

So from her perspective, she's trying, she just put a bunch of effort into reading and probably re-reading a handful of players, and then Klick comes along and votes her because... it felt soulless? That's just such a bizarre characterization of an activity that I saw as the complete opposite.

I'd probably be annoyed too.

[Klick]

I'm not ruling out FA scum, I am presenting a data point.

You feel a lot more certain than I feel like I can possibly be.

What makes you think I'm certain?
(I'm not, far from it)

Because of how you're engaging with me, mostly.

It feels like you want to discredit the whole way I approach scum hunting as a means for shutting down discussion on why FA feels town to me.

Like you've now typed a lot of words on this and they basically boil down to (for me) "my conclusions are better than yours."

Which seems like a really strange way to have a discussion on a difference of opinion.

If your conclusion is 'FA is town for showing genuine-looking emotion', then yes that's something that I'm interested in discrediting.

If it's not, then I'm not sure what is.

[kuribo]

Part of the distinction to me is that caught scum emotion DOES frequently feel fake to me. In the sense that they know they are bad so everything is filtered through that lens. Even if a scum player is legitimately frustrated by being "caught for the wrong reasons" as people say there is always that in the background.

For what its worth I tend to think caught for the wrong reasons is kind of a bullshit thing in general.

In my experience town gets just as mad if not more mad when they are being scum read for reasons they think are illegitimate than scum does and in fact it happens more often because town is way more prone to think people scum reading them is illegitimate because they know they're town.

I always got around this by just working myself into a raw frenzy for real. That's why I hated when people would accuse me of "fake rage." Fake rage isn't a thing that usually happens, and it was never artificial with me. My *motivations* were sometimes illegitimate, but I would definitely crank myself up to eleven until I got to the point I couldn't return. Like I'd be full of shit about something, hand shaking while I screamed at somebody, then I'd be in the scum PT telling Katsuki how I was so pissed off I just wanted to replace out. Like, it didn't matter that the *initial* reason for the irritation wasn't town, I'd open up the floodgate and it'd just be thunderdome from there. And then there'd be the other times where it was personal fury instead of "lol kuribo mad" anger, which as mastina once pointed out were two very different things, the latter being cartoonish and comical, the former being an ugly toxic thing that made everyone uncomfortable.

Ah, I realize I'm probably an outlier in that.

I think you're better at rage than most people.

That's not a good thing and I'm really trying to learn without screeching threats into threads until my nose bleeds

[kuribo]

If your conclusion is 'FA is town for showing genuine-looking emotion', then yes that's something that I'm interested in discrediting.

If it's not, then I'm not sure what is.

This isn't addressed to me, but I'm gonna respond anyway just to head it off the past in the light of my last couple posts:

The genuine emotion isn't what makes it town to me. The reasoning and thought process behind that emotion is what makes it town. You made what she felt like was an unfair characterization of her playstyle, and frankly I agree. There *are* conclusions drawn throughout her ISO, and especially in her re-reads. If you think that her conclusions are wrong or scum-motivated then that's fine. But to characterize it as soulless is just outright incorrect.

[Save The Dragons]

VOTE: drixx

[Black]

I think maybe "soulless" is the wrong word but Klick's bottom paragraph in 1267 pretty much summarizes how I feel about what I've read from FA. I admit I need to look deeper to get a better feeling here

[Frozen Angel]

I think maybe "soulless" is the wrong word but Klick's bottom paragraph in 1267 pretty much summarizes how I feel about what I've read from FA. I admit I need to look deeper to get a better feeling here

so you read the iso's finally?

what do you think about my read on drixx and titus and dunn?

[Drixx]

Drixx

FB, Kuribo, Dunn and TSQ all seem town to me. I don't like Klick's ISO, most especially the re-entry from VLA.

I'm still on V/LA

Okay. But there's a clear 220 post gap after you announced V/LA, and you clearly made a re-entry with a few posts in a row, and they were bad. Responding with "I'm still on V/LA" is disingenuous at best.

poking klick when he was going on and off and posting in game is consistent

drixx what in dragon eater iso did you find scummy and why didn't you ever elaborate that?

I told Black she looked way less "multi tasking" than her other town games, I don't feel that way anymore and realized that I was getting blindspotted via Titus and Shea

I haven't looked at any other games yet as I didn't want to spoil my initial impressions. If Black's play was organic, you would expect the

distribution of engagement

to look WAY different than it does.

can you elaborate on that? you think black is being hyper focused on the people she wanna talk with?

@pink ball yes it was at you.

I will, but at this point Black has been pretty much contributing and the only times that she has been out of focus has been when either you or Titus call her scummy for not contributing, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy rather than the factual truth

Check out Black in ISO and then go back and see how it looks in comparison to the way the game is flowing. It LOOKS super opportunistic and reactionary. Also tally up Black's responses/questions by slot and see where she is and is not paying attention. It should be illuminating.

I told Black she looked way less "multi tasking" than her other town games, I don't feel that way anymore and realized that I was getting blindspotted via Titus and Shea

I haven't looked at any other games yet as I didn't want to spoil my initial impressions. If Black's play was organic, you would expect the distribution of engagement to look WAY different than it does.

I've been constantly reading the game so I've seen Black's posts in a live action manner, maybe that's why we disagree here? I understand the 'opportunistic' vibe but to me it's explained because Black has been engaging the game constantly with whoever is active at the time and both Titus and Shea had spikes of activity and their main focus was Black, so she had to interact a lot about her own slot instead of focusing on other things.

I think there is merit in solving this puzzle though, especially if Titus ends being town and me recognizing that would be huge, so I'll have to reread. Right now I'm building my scumcase on DragonEater though.

So if your impression that Black is responding organically to people as they post is correct, the # of posts at/about each slot should show a pretty strong correlation to the activity of each slot. But it doesn't.

this is actually a very mathematical mindset and I dig it. I need to verify when checking black but I can see this as a possible hunt.

I do not have the knowledge to tell whether that argument about graph correlation has merit or not.

I mean ... you can just map Black's engagement ratio with each slot in her town games, and them map the engagement per slot here and you're gonna see a bunch of games that have similar outputs and then this game as an outlier. That isn't hard evidence in and of itself, but paired with actually evaluating Black's posts and how Black has responded to Titus and myself, it starts to look pretty bad.

but you said you didn't check her meta?

Kowah thinks drixx is scummy

and kind of a neutral read on feysal. I can elaborate on those if people want. I asked him to look at those two people.

Korina mentioned something about DE being town and FB being scummy but I think they've only read a few pages so far.

I will tell ceph he smells esp because he hasn't posted any thoughts yet.

So ... you refused to give any reasons for your own read, and now you come in with an ATA read?

Bro...

drixx engaging with save the dragon feels - ultra defensive for drixx. idk why would he care about being scumread by that particular player to engage him that much about it

you know? I know/agree you gotta engage with people scum reading you for their reasoning but save the dragon is not posting reasons for anything, so why care so much about their read on YOU over everything else?

Drixx out of curiosity what are you trying to accomplish?

I know that std is trying to accomplish. He's trying to annoy you, and he's succeeding.

But your motives in this little exchange are a mystery to me. I don't think you actually believe you're going to get more out of std than this.

Suppose I'm roped today or killed tonight and then you know for sure I'm town. How does STD look then? Town should never refuse to explain reads because in any future where their alignment is confirmed, their thought process is on display to help their team.

At the moment there's also nothing else to engage with sadly.

Also ... I'm not annoyed, I promise.

still factually true but why care only about their read on you? they also dropped a random read on many other people without explaining any of them that would still go against what you said here

---------------------------

I have to put drixx a bit lower than null toward scum read. He is a very fact checking/mathematical/logic driven player so this might be why I get this impression but he feels hyper focused.

for someone who spent half of his posts explaining why people need to elaborate reads, he didn't elaborate his own dragon eater read/vote yet and he clearly doesn't care about rest of save the dragon reads just the one he has on him. doesn't make sense in my head

For the stuff up top with Black, I think you missed the post where I explained what I had done, which was just data collection without reading the games. I still haven't gone to read them.


Mostly I've been skim reading this day one, and my notes are pretty basic at this point. I work from home now so I can check in more often than the last time I was playing in 2020, but I'm still more limited than when I played a lot in years past, so a lot of my attention has been on folks who are actively around when I am. STD got attention because there was just no reasons for anything, but that has been explained to me to be not only "normal" for them but also immutable. I'm not sure how never explaining anything leads to anywhere useful, but for now I'm putting it on the shelf to revisit later.

I think it's perfectly normal for people who have played with me before to have a hard time reading me early and consequently they put me on the scum end of things. I'm generally not interested in obvtowning on day one, for a myriad of reasons that don't make sense to elaborate upon just now. You know this from experience tho, which is (I think) why you hedged your read by pointing out my style.

[Black]

I'd probably be annoyed too.

Yeah, I don't think the argument here is whether the frustration is genuine or not. I do think you have some good points as to why it might be town motivated but I just think the good scum players can morph their frustration from being caught into frustration that looks like it's coming from being misrepped or dismissed

[Drixx]

VOTE: drixx

Can I has reasons this time?

[Black]

so you read the iso's finally?

what do you think about my read on drixx and titus and dunn?

Nope, not yet. I got that feeling from some of your other posts. I need to look at the rest to see if the feeling is consistent but I've been mostly live posting today after Fey's ISO wore me out

[Thestatusquo]

By far the thing I don't like in the whole thing is that it doesn't feel to me like klick is interested in hearing me in any way and is much more interested in shutting me down.

[Klick]

sure since you're asking me to talk about myself again

as town I'm concerned about two things:
- finding scum by analyzing everything when I can and by getting as much as I can out of people with questions
- responding to any concerns players have about me being town

as scum I would play to fake the two attidues above. like anyone else playing. In general as scum I wouldn't care if I was about to case my partner if they are doing something I can find scummy and I would defend against people scum reading me by either discrediting their cases or pushing them back.

in general I ask a lot, I engage a lot, and I sort better when I'm directly involved in a convo with someone when town and I play fearless when scum. my scum hunting is based on patterns of actions/reactions not singular action/reaction judgements.

take out whatever you want from that or double check with people who actually sorted me before in different games.

and in general I don't drop a hypothesis about someone being scum to scum read them or town read them. I put 2+2s together and see if it all in one picture makes sense as town or scum. calling my reads soulless cause I'm evaluating patterns of actions logically is ... oki?

but going that far for calling them soulless?!

You think I logically evaluated dragoneater and logically think they are scum without believing it. But my logic holds? if it does why you think they are town and my read is faked by a scum me rather than a town with a different perspective/playstyle than you?

UNVOTE:

Good stuff. I'll read back but this seems both genuine and pretty consistent with what you've been doing so far. I think you're likely town.

[Frozen Angel]

---------------------------

I have to put drixx a bit lower than null toward scum read. He is a very fact checking/mathematical/logic driven player so this might be why I get this impression but he feels hyper focused.

for someone who spent half of his posts explaining why people need to elaborate reads, he didn't elaborate his own dragon eater read/vote yet and he clearly doesn't care about rest of save the dragon reads just the one he has on him. doesn't make sense in my head

For the stuff up top with Black, I think you missed the post where I explained what I had done, which was just data collection without reading the games. I still haven't gone to read them.


Mostly I've been skim reading this day one, and my notes are pretty basic at this point. I work from home now so I can check in more often than the last time I was playing in 2020, but I'm still more limited than when I played a lot in years past, so a lot of my attention has been on folks who are actively around when I am. STD got attention because there was just no reasons for anything, but that has been explained to me to be not only "normal" for them but also immutable. I'm not sure how never explaining anything leads to anywhere useful, but for now I'm putting it on the shelf to revisit later.

I think it's perfectly normal for people who have played with me before to have a hard time reading me early and consequently they put me on the scum end of things. I'm generally not interested in obvtowning on day one, for a myriad of reasons that don't make sense to elaborate upon just now. You know this from experience tho, which is (I think) why you hedged your read by pointing out my style.

I read the part where you explained what you did about black later, but I remember being confused if you did meta check her or not at the end? cause you said you don't wanna do that and then then pulled some data from her games? i will reread that part again later

I note your answer about why you focused on STD read on you.

that just doesn't explain why you didn't explain your read on dragon and still are not doing it?

[Klick]

The main point of the last few pages of posting for me has been to get a better read on FA and I feel like I've accomplished that

[Black]

By far the thing I don't like in the whole thing is that it doesn't feel to me like klick is interested in hearing me in any way and is much more interested in shutting me down.

fwiw I'm not seeing this

[Drixx]

---------------------------

I have to put drixx a bit lower than null toward scum read. He is a very fact checking/mathematical/logic driven player so this might be why I get this impression but he feels hyper focused.

for someone who spent half of his posts explaining why people need to elaborate reads, he didn't elaborate his own dragon eater read/vote yet and he clearly doesn't care about rest of save the dragon reads just the one he has on him. doesn't make sense in my head

For the stuff up top with Black, I think you missed the post where I explained what I had done, which was just data collection without reading the games. I still haven't gone to read them.


Mostly I've been skim reading this day one, and my notes are pretty basic at this point. I work from home now so I can check in more often than the last time I was playing in 2020, but I'm still more limited than when I played a lot in years past, so a lot of my attention has been on folks who are actively around when I am. STD got attention because there was just no reasons for anything, but that has been explained to me to be not only "normal" for them but also immutable. I'm not sure how never explaining anything leads to anywhere useful, but for now I'm putting it on the shelf to revisit later.

I think it's perfectly normal for people who have played with me before to have a hard time reading me early and consequently they put me on the scum end of things. I'm generally not interested in obvtowning on day one, for a myriad of reasons that don't make sense to elaborate upon just now. You know this from experience tho, which is (I think) why you hedged your read by pointing out my style.

I read the part where you explained what you did about black later, but I remember being confused if you did meta check her or not at the end? cause you said you don't wanna do that and then then pulled some data from her games? i will reread that part again later

I note your answer about why you focused on STD read on you.

that just doesn't explain why you didn't explain your read on dragon and still are not doing it?

I didn't like the wagon Dragon was on and of the people on that wagon, Dragon had the worst ISO. I didn't say this earlier? I feel like I remember saying this earlier, but maybe not?

[Black]

I think Klick is town

[Klick]

By far the thing I don't like in the whole thing is that it doesn't feel to me like klick is interested in hearing me in any way and is much more interested in shutting me down.

I do see what you're saying about the fact that town players generally are much more effective at showing genuine emotion than scum players. But I think it's important to try to identify cases where that doesn't apply and I believe FA is one of them.

For now I wouldn't mind tabling this discussion though and letting others digest, unless you want me to respond further to anything specific?

[Thestatusquo]

No I think tabling it is fine. I'm still digesting too.

[Frozen Angel]

---------------------------

I have to put drixx a bit lower than null toward scum read. He is a very fact checking/mathematical/logic driven player so this might be why I get this impression but he feels hyper focused.

for someone who spent half of his posts explaining why people need to elaborate reads, he didn't elaborate his own dragon eater read/vote yet and he clearly doesn't care about rest of save the dragon reads just the one he has on him. doesn't make sense in my head

For the stuff up top with Black, I think you missed the post where I explained what I had done, which was just data collection without reading the games. I still haven't gone to read them.


Mostly I've been skim reading this day one, and my notes are pretty basic at this point. I work from home now so I can check in more often than the last time I was playing in 2020, but I'm still more limited than when I played a lot in years past, so a lot of my attention has been on folks who are actively around when I am. STD got attention because there was just no reasons for anything, but that has been explained to me to be not only "normal" for them but also immutable. I'm not sure how never explaining anything leads to anywhere useful, but for now I'm putting it on the shelf to revisit later.

I think it's perfectly normal for people who have played with me before to have a hard time reading me early and consequently they put me on the scum end of things. I'm generally not interested in obvtowning on day one, for a myriad of reasons that don't make sense to elaborate upon just now. You know this from experience tho, which is (I think) why you hedged your read by pointing out my style.

I read the part where you explained what you did about black later, but I remember being confused if you did meta check her or not at the end? cause you said you don't wanna do that and then then pulled some data from her games? i will reread that part again later

I note your answer about why you focused on STD read on you.

that just doesn't explain why you didn't explain your read on dragon and still are not doing it?

I didn't like the wagon Dragon was on and of the people on that wagon, Dragon had the worst ISO. I didn't say this earlier? I feel like I remember saying this earlier, but maybe not?

You said they had the worst iso but I wonder why you never elaborated why you think that. that's just saying you don't like what they posted so far. but why? that's what I think is inconsistent with what you were saying to save the dragon about his vote on you about not leaving votes unexplained.