TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[Alisae]

i stand by what i said

There are certain players who I could mention whom have better reads than any cop results and giving them bulletproof essentially just makes them unable to be silenced.

[Alisae]

Most players should and are probably going to opt for the cop but those who know what they're doing or are wolves will probably opt for the bulletproof.

[Datisi]

Is it weird to anyone else that imaginality said "I targeted Gimli" rather than "I protected Gimli", defended this by saying he used "targeted" deliberately because of the night results... but despite apparently thinking through whether it was more accurate to use "targeted" or "protected" wasn't consistent about it and used "protect" four lines later?

i think you are wasting time with this. nobody that doesn't already think imaginality is scum is going to be convinced by this. i'm voting him right now and even i don't think this is indicative of his alignment at all.

but i also don't recall scum fabricating something like this, and i see shea agrees with me, so it wasn't a complete waste of time

Why don't you see wolves try to fabricate something like this?

because i don't think anyone would ever go "you know what, i wasn't sure what imag was, but now that mith pointed out the target/protect thing, i think that's what makes imag scum"

and i think scum-mith is aware of that

scum-mith is also aware that he said he's gonna reread imag and that this doesn't look great, while town-mith probably doesn't care as much

and also i don't think scum is likely to notice something like that

[Datisi]

i stand by what i said

There are certain players who I could mention whom have better reads than any cop results and giving them bulletproof essentially just makes them unable to be silenced.

none of them are in this game

[Alisae]

Is it weird to anyone else that imaginality said "I targeted Gimli" rather than "I protected Gimli", defended this by saying he used "targeted" deliberately because of the night results... but despite apparently thinking through whether it was more accurate to use "targeted" or "protected" wasn't consistent about it and used "protect" four lines later?

i think you are wasting time with this. nobody that doesn't already think imaginality is scum is going to be convinced by this. i'm voting him right now and even i don't think this is indicative of his alignment at all.

but i also don't recall scum fabricating something like this, and i see shea agrees with me, so it wasn't a complete waste of time

Why don't you see wolves try to fabricate something like this?

because i don't think anyone would ever go "you know what, i wasn't sure what imag was, but now that mith pointed out the target/protect thing, i think that's what makes imag scum"

and i think scum-mith is aware of that

scum-mith is also aware that he said he's gonna reread imag and that this doesn't look great, while town-mith probably doesn't care as much

and also i don't think scum is likely to notice something like that

you think wolf!mith doesn't just mention that to reaffirm that he feels justified in it? I don't think the desire to nitpick a detail like that comes from the desire to want to be right. Like the idea isn't its trying to convince anyone (though he might think that it does) it's the idea that it's another point mith can use against imaginality to push

[Alisae]

i stand by what i said

There are certain players who I could mention whom have better reads than any cop results and giving them bulletproof essentially just makes them unable to be silenced.

none of them are in this game

Me and LLD are in this game wtf are you talking about?????

[Datisi]

you think wolf!mith doesn't just mention that to reaffirm that he feels justified in it? I don't think the desire to nitpick a detail like that comes from the desire to want to be right. Like the idea isn't its trying to convince anyone (though he might think that it does) it's the idea that it's another point mith can use against imaginality to push

no i don't think that and i don't think mith would consider that "anpther point he can use against imaginality" because the point is bad

Me and LLD are in this game wtf are you talking about?????

i stand by what i said

[Alisae]

no i don't think that and i don't think mith would consider that "anpther point he can use against imaginality" because the point is bad

if mith thought it was "bad" they wouldn't be saying it

[Alisae]

i stand by what i said

The Red M&M is you

[Datisi]

no i don't think that and i don't think mith would consider that "anpther point he can use against imaginality" because the point is bad

if mith thought it was "bad" they wouldn't be saying it

scum-mith would recognize the point as bad and that it wouldn't help him push imag

town-mith sees a point and outs it

do you think mith is scum?

[Datisi]

The Red M&M is you

staeg flipped town and lld vigged a townie but please do go on how you're more valuable than a cop

[Alisae]

scum-mith would recognize the point as bad and that it wouldn't help him push imag

no??????????

[Alisae]

The Red M&M is you

staeg flipped town and lld vigged a townie but please do go on how you're more valuable than a cop

I am very good at mafia

[Datisi]

scum-mith would recognize the point as bad and that it wouldn't help him push imag

no??????????

do you wanna make an actual scumcase on mith, because i am very bored of this conversation

[Alisae]

do you think mith is scum?

Yes.
I think whenever they pushed anyone was a wolf they went at it in a way that felt really slimy.

[Alisae]

lld vigged a townie

irrelevant. She could have bad reads early and still be a threat to wolves because wolves can't shoot her. She has that kind of presence.

[Datisi]

do you think mith is scum?

Yes.
I think whenever they pushed anyone was a wolf they went at it in a way that felt really slimy.

can you elaborate on this because we have zero wolf flips currently

[Alisae]

here are some posts that stood out to half asleep me

I think my current scumread of LLD is more to do with the volume and attitude of the numbers discussion more than with disagreeing over her conclusion (I don't currently have any reason to think she doesn't believe what she's been pushing about the scum-in-triple probability). It completely flooded the early game in a way that doesn't strike me as productive for town, where I can see plenty of benefit for scum to try to push on a particular group of players (potentially stifling other D1 discussion; and the argument about it has certainly had the effect of stifling my willingness to read through everything). I particularly don't care for the start of the argument with Ythan.

[editing as I read more]Also, imaginality's point in post 311 and LLD's response in post 313. Yikes. Just a whole lot of space wasted on arguing that the numbers are in favor of scum being in the triplet if the whole point was

not that those players are more likely to be scum

but rather they are safer in terms of not revealing town powers.

this seemed pretty slimy. They're pushing LLD could play this way like a wolf but not trying to assess if it is actually coming from a wolf or if it comes from town

--

There's not a lot of confidence

I don't have a lot of confidence in much of anything right now. ~shrug~ I don't know how any of you play, nor have I interacted with any of you much outside of this game. I also have my one teammate who has read this game chiming in with a town read, which is giving me pause.

That said, I do feel more strongly about LLD-scum than anyone else at the moment. On the more recent postings:

I

hate

the whole "calling Alisae's bluff" thing; obvious incentive to go along with this if LLD is scum and Rad is town, not really all that risky if they are both scum, and feels like an overly extreme reaction to the mere suggestion of her in a group.

The interaction with Rad himself is... something. Asking "why top 4 specifically" is a perfectly legitimate question that was (as far as I can tell) never answered before this exchange. In a vacuum, the reaction is anti-town; I get the impression from others not blinking at this that LLD just bites people's heads off like this sometimes though?

this doesn't age well when you consider their rad progression.
This is a good post if you want to create more discord.

--

Anyhow my point is not "we should lim this specific person" but "we shouldn't hold off from pushing and even limming someone today just because they're top 4."

My brain does not read past votes, apparently. I didn't see that line at all. Regardless, I stand by "tacked on"; the vote switch was "on that basis" (of thinking it more likely your scumread of me was wrong). You aren't expressing here that recent posting made you feel more strongly about LLD's scumminess and that it's a factor in your vote.

I want to walk through the imaginality timeline a bit here.

215 - arguments about LLD's number stuff, does not express a read
217 - random/joke vote for mith (I haven't posted yet)
288 - mentions some things about the LLD number theory argument, does not express a read here
311 - points out that using examples of 1 scum in a group of 5 is... a choice; "It makes me doubt whether you genuinely are motivated by your statistical analysis here" (this is a good point, of course)

LLD's 313

[complete lack of commentary on LLD's 313] - I have a hard time believing imaginality just missed this post, or felt that responding to Ythan's clarification was more important? (330/331)

694 - next post referencing LLD (after a couple catch-up posts), in presenting a scumread on me.
First point of this scumread is based on my not making more of LLD's backtracking...

while having made nothing of LLD's backtracking??

695 - "as for LLD while I do currently lean scum on her for the mech stuff as mentioned (like mith said, 313 really was bad), I've not looked as closely at her more recent posts as I should"

Datisi's 960 - "imaginality is trying to play both sides of lld v mith" (prompted by LLD's 910)
961 - having expressed a not particularly confident "lean scum" on LLD, claims to have been mulling over whether one scumread is wrong or they're right and we're bussing. Proceeds with:

However, I actually don't see it as a bus as such precisely because mith pulled his punches a bit. Yes mith's voting LLD but like in the post I quoted previously I feel like town!mith would be pushing the LLD wagon more.

Note that the second sentence here is clearly an elaboration on the first. "I actually don't see it as a bus...

Yes

mith's voting LLD

but

..."; the problem is, the follow up on "don't see it as a bus" is "town!mith would...", which is a complete non sequitur. Thinking I wouldn't do something as town cannot possibly be a reason for not seeing something as a bus.

Anyway, therefore, it's distancing. But my recent posts read ok so the mith scumread is more likely to be wrong, so, "On that basis:", votes LLD. To this point, has given no rationale for thinking LLD is scum other than that 313 was bad.

This whole thing smells.

[previewedit]

AMA.

Why haven't you read and posted content yet?
[/previewedit]

VOTE: imaginality

This post tries to come across more as ironclad and wanting to look good over actually wanting to be right. Maybe I just hate post by post analysis but this whole post reads like it was crafted by a wolf.

--

I could see a scum Staeg having a "well this is going downhill for my buddy fast" reaction and throwing a vote on before it's too late to get any town cred out of it. I don't see as much incentive for scum Staeg joining the wagon (having posted nothing about imaginality) if imaginality is town, except maybe if Marashu is also scum and Staeg saw an opportunity to shift things from a 3-3 split to a 4-2 against imaginality.

This reads like a wolf twisting what is happening in the gamestate to bullshit.

--

ngl 72 pages with no flips and constant back and forths, I don't know how to sort any further. I think it's great for future sorting but I think d1 has overstayed its welcome at this point. I'm hoping LLD comes back in fresh today, gives some final thoughts and we figure out who to consolidate on.

ngl I

hate

this post, and it's getting worse as I look through your ISO.

As of this post, I believe imaginality is at 5 (E-2). I think the only other player with multiple votes is Staeg with 2? In Rad's list (1608) imaginality is "Strong Lean Town" and Staeg is at the bottom (but no "solid scum read" on

anyone

)...

Let's not forget that Rad's sole vote in this game was for Marashu, in which he follows "And how are you still not understanding why I'd want to hold off on flipping a slot with 5 posts that could have repped out into a more readable player?" with "Here I'll replace your unvote since that wagon PL has suddenly become less scummy"... the unvote here was from LLD, and it seems like Rad's only strong take in this game is against LLD townslotting Marashu.

...but Rad wants to wait for LLD to come back and tell him who to vote for??

(If it makes you feel any better, Rad, you are separating yourself from Alisae in my read list.)

I feel like there were other posts from people talking about how Rad was willing to sheep me. I don't think I could find the very specific post I was thinking of and I really want to go look for it but this felt slimy. Felt like a wolf seizing the moment.

--

(I'm having a real hard time squaring sarcastic/trolly Rad with "I just want to see the best in everyone, please tell me who to vote for Ali" and "Why oh why should I even play if you're just going to come after me tomorrow?" Rad.)

gimli rad imaginality

Have to admit it bothers me a bit that Cephrir's bottom 3 is exactly my "most likely scum group if I'm right about imaginality".

Was it really just this easy? Rad's Ali-sheeping and "you won't get any "I knew it!" from me if he flips town." is so bad. Gimli appears to be going out of his way to find reasons to not vote imaginality, and the flopping back and forth between Marashu and Staeg gives the appearance of trying to have an out for a Staeg lim over imaginality while being able to say "well I *really* wanted to lim someone else all along".

--

How about this. We kill imaginality here. If town, we kill between mith ceph and Mena tomorrow. If scum, you can kill me.

I dare anyone to come up with a mindset this post makes sense from other than knowing imaginality is town

Why suggest killing him if you're that sure he's town

This and the whole “I think Staeg is town but I’m following Alisae around like a lost puppy”. Eesh. Didn’t think I would be persuaded off imaginality, but here we are.

UNVOTE: imaginality
VOTE: RadVOTE:

This is a vote I could see wolves making

[Alisae]

I think my current scumread of LLD is more to do with the volume and attitude of the numbers discussion more than with disagreeing over her conclusion (I don't currently have any reason to think she doesn't believe what she's been pushing about the scum-in-triple probability). It completely flooded the early game in a way that doesn't strike me as productive for town, where I can see plenty of benefit for scum to try to push on a particular group of players (potentially stifling other D1 discussion; and the argument about it has certainly had the effect of stifling my willingness to read through everything). I particularly don't care for the start of the argument with Ythan.

Like reading this, it seems like you think LLD's actions are something that could come from a wolf but I feel like if you're a wolf, it's pretty easy to want to push a read like this and hang onto it.
You could also be a villager and this is a valid concern. This is something I'm thinking about as well but I hoping I can get a clearer answer as to what's going on if I just let the game develop and just let LLD do what she wants to do.

I've had these kind of concerns w/ mith since this post and like I feel like it's something that's been happening pretty consistently.

[Alisae]

Like a lot of this is like "I COULD SEE WOLVES MAKING A PLAY LIKE THIS" but not if they actually are making a play like this or not and why.
I find that whenever I play wolf it's really easy to hang onto stuff like that like how in Bianco micro that Klick caught me in and you had me as a fos in, in f5 I was pushing "Look at how wolfy this vote from Gimli is he had to be bussing!" and hanging onto that and here I feel like mith is pushing his wolfreads in about the same way

[Alisae]

actually fuck it im just gonna play a bit of my hand
I wanted to vote Gimli to see who would go along w/ it but I feel like his posting coming into the start of day is something I find hard to come from a wolf? He genuinely seems like he is unaligned given his posting at the start of the day. I really just get vibes that I feel like they're just trying to solve the game on their own and just doing their own thing.


I think 877 is actually just manipulation and wolfposting and I kind of just want to deathtunnel it into the ground.
VOTE: mith

[Alisae]

877 ages so terribly if we consider that in that moment he's siding w/ Rad but as his read on Rad progresses he starts calling Rad out for wanting to sheep me.
Like this post was just written by an informed person

[Alisae]

they also said that after they said that they vibed with the LLD-staeg-Rad team that I suggested

[Datisi]

I wanted to vote Gimli to see who would go along w/ it but I feel like his posting coming into the start of day is something I find hard to come from a wolf? He genuinely seems like he is unaligned given his posting at the start of the day. I really just get vibes that I feel like they're just trying to solve the game on their own and just doing their own thing.

you mean like when his reasoning for me being scum was nonexistent and where his interacting with me was plainly bad faith and also when he couldn't explain the basics of what he meant and why

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The Red M&M is you

staeg flipped town and lld vigged a townie but please do go on how you're more valuable than a cop

Why am I catching strays?