TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[Bellaphant]

so it went both ways like he is either a townie scumreading datisi or he is scum scumreading datisi in a way that mirrors the way he is pushing me which meants dats probably town

I didn't want to expand on those feelings on d1 because they're very thin but I guess now they work in terms of understanding where I was coming from

l
@datisi, I think there's something valid in what gimli is saying about tone, mainly because I kinda felt cephs disagreement but I never thought he scum read me for it, whereas the way he talked to gimli felt different. I didn't look much into his interactions with you, so I will do before I make further comment

[mith]

[aside]he/him is fine, they/them doesn't bother me either, I haven't been particularly active since pronouns were added and forgot to update it[/aside]

i think you are wasting time with this. nobody that doesn't already think imaginality is scum is going to be convinced by this. i'm voting him right now and even i don't think this is indicative of his alignment at all.

You're allowed to think that. I have always found little wording things worthwhile. (See also: why I had Cephrir as my strongest townread yesterday.) There's an inconsistency here, and questioning it has the potential to illicit interesting responses (like imaginality feeling the need to defend that choice of wording, or you and Alisae arguing over whether it says anything about my alignment).

(I would absolutely point out the same thing as scum, though, and really Shea should know better.)

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Re: 530

this seemed pretty slimy. They're pushing LLD could play this way like a wolf but not trying to assess if it is actually coming from a wolf or if it comes from town

1. This is rather vague, and I'm curious now what you think "trying to assess" looks like. This is the first game I've played with LLD, and things like "in a way that doesn't strike me as productive for town, where I can see plenty of benefit for scum" and "I particularly don't care for the start of the argument with Ythan."

are

trying to assess her alignment, while being cognizant of the fact that I don't know how she typically plays and leaving room for interaction on this (both with her and with others).

2. As a reminder (she already quoted herself on it) here's her original reaction to it:

Like reading this, it seems like you think LLD's actions are something that could come from a wolf but I feel like if you're a wolf, it's pretty easy to want to push a read like this and hang onto it.
You could also be a villager and this is a valid concern. This is something I'm thinking about as well but I hoping I can get a clearer answer as to what's going on if I just let the game develop and just let LLD do what she wants to do.

...which seems to be exactly what she's accusing me of here? I didn't notice this before, but the structure of the post is pretty strange:

a. mith could be scum, it would be easy to want to push a read like this (on LLD)
b. mith could also be town

and this is a valid concern

c. What's a valid concern? Not my alignment, as the last sentence is all about LLD. (If the concern here was my alignment - that is, she considers it a valid concern that I might be town - we would expect the last sentence to be about letting the game develop and

assessing my alignment

, not getting a clearer answer by letting "LLD do what she wants to do".)

Unless my reading comprehension is in the toilet here ( ), this is saying that

"LLD actions are something that could come from a wolf" is a valid concern

(but that I could be scum for pointing that out)?

Re: 877

this doesn't age well when you consider their rad progression.
This is a good post if you want to create more discord.

877 ages so terribly if we consider that in that moment he's siding w/ Rad but as his read on Rad progresses he starts calling Rad out for wanting to sheep me.

? I was "siding w/ Rad" specifically over whether his question about top 4 vs. top 5 was a reasonable one. My post had nothing to do with Rad's alignment at all (scum are capable of asking reasonable questions).

Re: 1166

This post tries to come across more as ironclad and wanting to look good over actually wanting to be right. Maybe I just hate post by post analysis but this whole post reads like it was crafted by a wolf.

Saying you hate post by post analysis in the middle of a post by post analysis is a choice.

This is just how I post sometimes. As town or as scum

Re: 1551

This reads like a wolf twisting what is happening in the gamestate to bullshit.

In what way did I twist the gamestate?

Re: 1780

I feel like there were other posts from people talking about how Rad was willing to sheep me. I don't think I could find the very specific post I was thinking of and I really want to go look for it but this felt slimy. Felt like a wolf seizing the moment.

Haven't got a clue what your point is here. 1780 wasn't about Rad sheeping you, it was about his bizarre voting history.

Re: 2152

This is a vote I could see wolves making

And we've come full circle.

this seemed pretty slimy. They're pushing

LLD

mith could play this way like a wolf but not trying to assess if it is actually coming from a wolf or if it comes from town

[Datisi]

(I would absolutely point out the same thing as scum, though, and really Shea should know better.)

shea is asking what experience do you have in mind of him having with you when you're saying this?

[mith]

No specific experience, and actually hadn't realized until I did a search that we played together so infrequently; we've played in all of one game together start to finish 15 years ago so maybe it's a bit much to expect Shea to remember details of how I play. (We did have a ton of arguments over minutiae

outside

of games, of course.)

(But: hey Shea, remember that time we were townies in a newbie game, limmed Mafia D1, and then proceeded to lose the game after you quickhammered the Cop D2? )

[Alisae]

1. This is rather vague, and I'm curious now what you think "trying to assess" looks like. This is the first game I've played with LLD, and things like "in a way that doesn't strike me as productive for town, where I can see plenty of benefit for scum" and "I particularly don't care for the start of the argument with Ythan." are trying to assess her alignment, while being cognizant of the fact that I don't know how she typically plays and leaving room for interaction on this (both with her and with others).

it didn't seem like you were looking for things that were alignment indicative. Bringing down to just "how productive is this" isn't trying to assess. When I think of "trying to assess" I think of trying to look for what town and wolves actually do and this didn't seem to be that.

It's pretty easy I feel for mafia to go in this situation "look at how unproductive ythan and LLD there's no way this can come from town!" It takes actions and the events that happened and constructs how they could have come from a wolf instead of actually try to find truth.

Unless my reading comprehension is in the toilet here ( ), this is saying that "LLD actions are something that could come from a wolf" is a valid concern (but that I could be scum for pointing that out)?

--

Saying you hate post by post analysis in the middle of a post by post analysis is a choice.

This is just how I post sometimes. As town or as scum

I looked at the examples and tbh I would probably fos the example you wrote as town. I then checked the gamestate and it was F6. Ok. That explains why I got that read I suppose.
I then looked at the one you did as a wolf and it looked a lot less bloodthirsty.
What I really didn't like with this post was how bloodthirsty you were in combination with how much pointlessness is in the post.
I don't see how mentioning 215 217 does anything

694 goes to exclaim "Look at this scummy thing that they're attacking this player for! They haven't even done the thing they're talking about themselves" which comes across as wanting to be justified > wanting to be right and tbh this is the whole vibe I read the post.

--

In what way did I twist the gamestate?

You're taking what Staeg did and trying to twist it to make it sound like it comes from a wolf. Spinning Staeg's vote to be bussing allows you to keep both in your suspect pool.

--

Haven't got a clue what your point is here. 1780 wasn't about Rad sheeping you, it was about his bizarre voting history.

how exactly?
I just see those last 3 posts and see a flipped villager being attacked for wanting to sheep me and think "yep this is something that wolves would love to attack"

[mith]

it didn't seem like you were looking for things that were alignment indicative. Bringing down to just "how productive is this" isn't trying to assess. When I think of "trying to assess" I think of trying to look for what town and wolves actually do and this didn't seem to be that.

If I had brought it down to

just

"how productive this is", you might have a point?

Anyway, how I assess players' alignment is going to be different from how you (if you're town) assess players' alignment is going to be different from how anyone else assesses players' alignment. If there were a checklist for scum and town behavior, this would be a rather dull game and I would question why this site still exists after 21 years.

It's pretty easy I feel for mafia to go in this situation "look at how unproductive ythan and LLD there's no way this can come from town!" It takes actions and the events that happened and constructs how they could have come from a wolf instead of actually try to find truth.

And if I had just camped my vote on LLD on solely this basis and done nothing else all day, you might have a point? (This is a pretty terrible mischaracterization of what I was saying in that post.)

Unless my reading comprehension is in the toilet here ( ), this is saying that "LLD actions are something that could come from a wolf" is a valid concern (but that I could be scum for pointing that out)?

So, just to be extra clear on this, Alisae is claiming that she:

1. Thought it was concerning that LLD's actions could come from scum.
2. Thought I could be scum because I was pointing this out.
3. Does not see the irony inherent in 1 and 2.
4. Made no effort to "actually try to find truth" about whether I would point this out as town or scum.

Is that accurate?

694 goes to exclaim "Look at this scummy thing that they're attacking this player for! They haven't even done the thing they're talking about themselves" which comes across as wanting to be justified > wanting to be right and tbh this is the whole vibe I read the post.

Hypocrisy is a pretty big deal to me; town that are actually thinking about the game and what other players are doing tend to not accuse people of being scummy on the basis of something they themselves are doing (or at least have the self-awareness to recognize that they are and take it into account), whereas scum slip in this regard on account of not actually believing what they're saying. (And yes, I want to be justified in making any point, and especially when I'm making a case on someone; first to justify it to myself - is this really scummy or am I just annoyed by it or tunneling because OMGUS or reading it wrong or... - and then to justify it to the rest of the town to prompt action.)

You're taking what Staeg did and trying to twist it to make it sound like it comes from a wolf. Spinning Staeg's vote to be bussing allows you to keep both in your suspect pool.

(This doesn't answer what I "twisted", but it misses the point anyway.)

This was addressed in 1619:

My point here is not "Staeg is definitely bussing"; my point is that vote is not moving the needle for me much on reading

imaginality

, and my initial thought on Staeg after reading that vote was "huh, maybe they're scum together".

If I were going to base my entire read of a game on a single empty vote, my conclusion there would have been "Staeg is unlikely to be scum

unless

with imaginality or maybe Marashu, I won't be voting for Staeg over imaginality today". We already had a whole discussion about this at the time which IIRC ended with you saying you had missed my point re: what scum might do if given the option, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you are again missing my point.

(Also, why bring up that I had a different reaction in the first place if I were scum? What would this accomplish?)

Haven't got a clue what your point is here. 1780 wasn't about Rad sheeping you, it was about his bizarre voting history.

how exactly?

This is getting a bit ridiculous if I have to explain how a post about Rad's voting history (or lack thereof) that does not mention Rad sheeping you is about his voting history (or lack thereof) and not about Rad sheeping you. (I mentioned you at the very end in reference to the beginning of 1780, which you did not quote, regarding Rad's question about whether my difficulty reading him was related to my difficulty reading you.)

------

Haven't decided on a vote yet. kuribo thinks there is scum in Alisae/Datisi. I lean more toward Alisae, though a reread of Datisi is warranted. My gut still says imaginality is scum. I have a cold, so I'm going to go sleep on it and hope my head feels better in the morning.

[implosion]

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Vote Count 2.2

mith (2): Gimli, Alisae
imaginality (1): Datisi
Ythan (1): Bellaphant

Not Voting (6): imaginality, Lady Lambdadelta, Marashu, Menalque, mith, Ythan

With 10 alive, it takes 6 votes to eliminate.

Deadline is May 10 at 1:00 AM PST, in (expired on 2023-05-10 04:00:00).

[Menalque]

Daytripping today, prob around tonight or if not then tomo

[Datisi]

mith? town? yeah

hey rememeber when i said "people should vote bc otherwise we risk stagnating the game until deadline" yeah that was funny wasn't it. can the six (6) people who are not voting like do something in the near future so that people are forced to start actually playing instead of not doing that k thx

[Alisae]

talking feels pointless...
seems like I can't talk myself out of a paper bag...

Maybe I can't explain why the posts are scummy but that's what my gut tells me to go w/

[Alisae]

idunno i have imaginality as town for the claim and like I can see villager perspective.
Staeg flipped town. Rad flipped town.
LLD is a vig (likely town)

from where I am sitting I think mith being a wolf makes sense...

[imaginality]

Hooray my mith wagon can actually happen today.

VOTE: mith

[Alisae]

wow this game is fucking dead.

[imaginality]

I wanted to look at who switched wagons when on D1 but digging through the 100 pages is demotivating.

Maybe I'll focus on the shift from me to Rad because I feel like scum could have let town drive any of the wagons but that's the point where there was most risk to scum so makes sense scum might be more active in making sure the counter-counter-wagon coalesced on a townie.

Yeah that's helping I think.
The main pushers were mith, Menalque, LLD, Datisi maybe. Though 2310 from LLD felt townie.

Bella wanted a Gimli flashwagon in 2386. I don't think scum push for that. Whereas Gimli raised the idea of a Cephrir wagon in 2389.

[Bellaphant]

@gimli, I read cephs iso Ans didn't really see what you were seeing re:datisi, can you provide some receipts?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Checked in for surgery

[mith]

Checked in for surgery

<3

If you have a chance before the drugs:

talking feels pointless...
seems like I can't talk myself out of a paper bag...

Maybe I can't explain why the posts are scummy but that's what my gut tells me to go w/

Anyone care to comment on whether she makes this post as town or as scum?

[mith]

Maybe I'll focus on the shift from me to Rad because I feel like scum could have let town drive any of the wagons but that's the point where there was most risk to scum so makes sense scum might be more active in making sure the counter-counter-wagon coalesced on a townie.

Curious about this. Why do you think scum would have been concerned about making sure it coalesced around Rad vs. staying on you? (I can think of a few reasons of varying likelihood; but at the moment this feels like throwing out a very lazy VCA to justify voting me.)

Also:

On the plus side, having confirmation (from my perspective) that me, Staeg and Rad was TvTvT seems like it'll be rather helpful for rereading D1.

I'm particularly interested in looking back to see who led the consolidation on Rad

as that seems like the moment where scum were potentially at most risk (if at least one of the other possible options was scum, and if none of them are we're probably screwed anyhow), so it seems like a point in the day when scum were most likely to have been actively trying to influence things.

I wanted to look at who switched wagons when on D1 but digging through the 100 pages is demotivating.

Maybe I'll focus on the shift from me to Rad

Emphasis mine. imaginality was particularly interested in looking at the consolidation on Rad... then later says maybe he'll focus on the thing that he had already said he was particularly interested in. This is not a genuine thought process.

VOTE: imaginality

[Datisi]

Bella wanted a Gimli flashwagon in 2386. I don't think scum push for that. Whereas Gimli raised the idea of a Cephrir wagon in 2389.

why wouldn't scum push for gimli? what's the ending thought about gimli raising an idea for cephrir?

[Bellaphant]

...gimli is only one less in the draft than steag. That makes me even more surprised that noone was up for it.

TBf ceph was basically widely tr Ans gimli wasn't? I might be biased

[Datisi]

imaginality's return to the thead has been... very disappointing. 2686 gave the feel of him actually going to... do some analysis. but 2788 is saying basically nothing. and it doesn't even make sense. mith was 2nd vote on rad, and split the wagons on imag/rad (look at VC in 2158) WHILE STAEG WAS ON 6 VOTES. why is mith scummy for that? imag is making a point about there being danger for scum for the collective switching to a different wagon *but there was a wagon on staeg-town with 6 votes* what?

like, if i'm reading this wrong please correct me, but i don't see what other way is to read those posts

[Bellaphant]

Ceph also wanted to fw gimli, which is slightly weird imag didnt mention it.

0-edit there's something funky about all the switches but it's more than we went from ? To town to town. Like, the level zero take there is that we moved off scum, but then I can't work out why imag is mentioning it at all

[Datisi]

The main pushers were mith, Menalque, LLD, Datisi maybe.

like it is certainly *a choice* to be singling out those pushing rad, while not making any sort of effort to mention the staeg wagon that was on 6 votes at one point


2686 says he's gonna look at the game with the knowledge that the wagons were tvtvt but the actual analysis is ignoring the staeg wagon and insinuating that scum were in danger therefore scum was pushing a rad wagon (and staeg's??? is it because you were on it) when i feel like the exact opposite should be the conclusion if you know that the only 3 wagons to ever take off yesterday were town town town

[Datisi]

0-edit there's something funky about all the switches but it's more than we went from ? To town to town. Like, the level zero take there is that we moved off scum, but then I can't work out why imag is mentioning it at all

yeah, that's what i'm thinking. i did write some notes down for myself about the wagon switching, but the main thing is that i had imag as scum and it made more sense

this is probs the first time in my mafia career that i say something like this, but: is imag perspective slipping?

[Bellaphant]

I think we just said the same thing?

P-edit yeah