Micro 1080: Brass and Shrapnel - Game Over!

[Something_Smart]

ok 179 is a pretty bad post

[T3]

Okay. I'm going to drop this for now bc I sense in you the ability to argue for pages over it, and I don't think what you said is strong enough to go full blown tunnel on you over it.

I like this interaction between Merlyn and Jason, I see where both of them are coming from and while I do agree with Jason I liked the way Merlyn backed off and they way that Jason engaged with Merlyn.

[SirCakez]

Votecount 1.2

Merlyn (2) - KittyTacky, GrandpaSpino
Skygazer (2) - Something_Smart, JasonWazza
Something_Smart (1) - T3
Alianna (1) - Doctor Drew
Doctor Drew (1) - Alianna
JasonWazza (1) - Merlyn
KittyTacky (1) - Skygazer

Not voting (0)

(expired on 2023-05-23 17:54:00) remain until day end

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to reach a majority.

[T3]

Okay. I'm going to drop this for now bc I sense in you the ability to argue for pages over it, and I don't think what you said is strong enough to go full blown tunnel on you over it.

Classic scum move.

Gets pressured and gets called out on it and then stops the reasoning.

See, I would have agreed with you, if you had this realized before I called you out but you are only doing this because you don't want to argue for pages over it. [which would have never happened -- I did not even wanna engage in an irrelevant convo about something that wasn't true]. That's why I tested you

im like 87% sure this is scum now.

VOTE: Merlyn

Framing this interaction as Merlyn being 'pressured' is disingenuous. Also, why can't town stop their reasoning if they realize they are wrong? What does scum have to gain from defending a post that is clearly wrong?

[Skygazer]

they give an aura of solving without like actual solving

I'm sorry i'm confused, what post(/s) specifically gives you this feeling?

honestly not feeling this as strongly but the quick-fire reads just felt like lukewarm/safe takes

[Skygazer]

Not liking something_smart that much here either right now.

I'll probably be getting more into this game soon but not tonight because I have to give a final exam.

[Something_Smart]

honestly not feeling this as strongly but the quick-fire reads just felt like lukewarm/safe takes

what would be an unsafe take to make at this point in the game?

[Skygazer]

point taken

[Skygazer]

yall aren't really doing much to inspire me to open my mouth more. maybe on my next post someone can give me a nice sticker and like a "good job" or something

[Something_Smart]

I wasn't trying to simply shoot down your read, though if it was that easily shot down, it's probably better that it was.

Can't speak for other people, but if I'm pushing back on a read, it's almost always because I want to generate more discussion on it and analyze more in-depth, and not because I want you to shut up.

[Skygazer]

i was (mostly) joking but i have been in somewhat of a funk i'm trying to get out of

[Something_Smart]

I understand that sentiment.

I'm not sure the game is quite far enough along for it yet but if you still feel that later in the day we could try to jam about reads and see if we can come up with anything interesting. When I'm feeling out of it what I usually want is for someone to engage me in good faith on specific topics and try to get a discussion going.

[Skygazer]

That is to say: it is a me problem and I shouldn't be making it a problem for anyone else to dance around

pedit: sounds good!! ty

[Something_Smart]

If you want something to engage with, I'd be interested to hear more thoughts on 179. bianco (I think?) already called it out as being weird, after seeing his post I agree with him, but I have a pretty hard time reading new players so I can't say I'm super confident in it.

It's a little hard for me to place exactly what I don't like about it (and I will not stoop to buzzwords such as "well poisoning"), but I think it's the double accusation of motivated reasoning. Motivated reasoning is a thing that happens all the time but it's obviously much more likely to come from scum, who need to generate arguments to fit the reads that are strategic for them, so even putting aside the fact that people may not recognize it in themselves, people are going to be very unlikely to admit to it.

So bianco is right. For someone who supposedly doesn't scumread GS, what purpose do those questions serve? GMo is never going to answer "actually yes, I just scanned the game looking for an excuse to scumread you instead of making a fair analysis". And they're not really solving-minded, or they'd be directed at others ("hey, does anyone else think GMo's meta scan was bullshit?") So it just kinda reads like a deflection, a knee-jerk attempt to attack the credibility of someone accusing you instead of actually solving them.

And in the same vein, Jason's 181 was perfectly timed, because Merlyn had left it kind of ambiguous and knowing the answer to that was vital to parsing 179. I wanted to know where Jason was going with that, it seems he has not gone anywhere with it yet. I guess in an ideal world I should be holding this post back until he does but... screw that, I want to spark more discussion. But if you get a moment Jason, I would like to know why you asked that, and what your conclusion is from Merlyn's answer.

[Doctor Drew]

Thank you something smart, this post definitely was....uh, something smart(I will show myself out).

There was something about Merlyns post that made me feel a certain way, but couldn't put my finger on it. But 'motivated reasoning' is kind of what I was thinking. Like she found one little thing she could push as scum, and now is trying to build a case by any means necessary.

And I didn't check, but has she still not voted them despite this?

[Something_Smart]

It is worth clarifying, since you may have misunderstood-- I am not saying Merlyn was using motivated reasoning. I'm saying Merlyn was accusing GMo of using motivated reasoning, in essence asking him "did you make stuff up to support your argument?" Which is a pointless question, because nobody would ever answer "yes" to that.

[Doctor Drew]

It is worth clarifying, since you may have misunderstood-- I am not saying Merlyn was using motivated reasoning. I'm saying Merlyn was accusing GMo of using motivated reasoning, in essence asking him "did you make stuff up to support your argument?" Which is a pointless question, because nobody would ever answer "yes" to that.

Ooh gotcha, yes I misread that.

Point still stands about Merlyn.

[Merlyn]

So here's the deal. I don't read GS as scum right now bc when I looked at their answers and accusations, they strike me as coming from blustery town.
BUT I COULD BE WRONG. Because we're actually not far into this game. So yeah, when I see inconsistencies, poor reasoning or things that might later mean something, I point them out.

GMo is never going to answer "actually yes, I just scanned the game looking for an excuse to scumread you instead of making a fair analysis". And they're not really solving-minded, or they'd be directed at others ("hey, does anyone else think GMo's meta scan was bullshit?")

This was absolutely directed at other town reading along and thinking that GS had actually read that game. This isn't Jeopardy, I shouldn't have to put the answer in a form of a question!

This is the bottom line. I found some things I didn't like in GMo's posts. They're small, and everyone here should know that they're not really enough to build a case on. But they did happen. And at some point in the future, if they keep happening, they might not be so small anymore. But that's not the case right now.

[JasonWazza]

And in the same vein, Jason's 181 was perfectly timed, because Merlyn had left it kind of ambiguous and knowing the answer to that was vital to parsing 179. I wanted to know where Jason was going with that, it seems he has not gone anywhere with it yet. I guess in an ideal world I should be holding this post back until he does but... screw that, I want to spark more discussion. But if you get a moment Jason, I would like to know why you asked that, and what your conclusion is from Merlyn's answer.

To clarify Merlyn's stance, and i hadn't posted anything yet because i needed time to actually check something from Merlyn's normal gameplay.

@Merlyn, your vote was never this super sticky with regards to RVS votes, is there a reason you aren't at least using it more for pressure like you normally do, and hell is there a reason for the general stickiness of your reads in that, it feels like at least in your past 2 games, you were actually using your vote with the questions like this, rather then letting them flop like a wet noodle with this sort of post.

Not really, or I'd be voting them. This stuff is too small to be AI already.

This frankly reads super weird from you, and this fence sitter attitude reads as really off.

UNVOTE: Skygazer
VOTE: Merlyn

This is E-2

[Something_Smart]

This was absolutely directed at other town reading along and thinking that GS had actually read that game. This isn't Jeopardy, I shouldn't have to put the answer in a form of a question!

Was it meant to simply be a statement then ("GMo took five minutes to make that post and therefore could not have read the whole game"), or an invitation for other people to weigh in? If the former, then the way you phrased it was fine (if unnecessarily antagonistic), but I don't think the latter was clear at all. That post gave the impression that you just wanted to bicker with GMo rather than engage a wider audience on that point.

[Merlyn]

I don't want to hear about 'you'd rather bicker with mo' when I said I wanted to drop it pages ago. And I definitely don't want to hear 'unnecessarily antagonistic' when the player who called me a liar gets off Scott free.

[Merlyn]

@Merlyn, your vote was never this super sticky with regards to RVS votes, is there a reason you aren't at least using it more for pressure like you normally do, and hell is there a reason for the general stickiness of your reads in that, it feels like at least in your past 2 games, you were actually using your vote with the questions like this, rather then letting them flop like a wet noodle with this sort of post.

LOL Well I definitely wasn't trying to do any noodle flopping. I don't enjoy interacting with folks on this site who will argue with you endlessly and escalate till you're in a battle for pages with them and I could see that's how it was going to go with GS. I'm not someone who will be having a 5-page fight in these games regardless of alignment. It's not fun for me and I play here for fun.

[Merlyn]

Like, I don't even have a good idea about who to vote for rn, and that's because the game is only about GS and I while scum lurks in the background and takes advantage of what was likely a TvT spat.

[Something_Smart]

I don't want to hear about 'you'd rather bicker with mo' when I said I wanted to drop it pages ago. And I definitely don't want to hear 'unnecessarily antagonistic' when the player who called me a liar gets off Scott free.

You should feel complimented rather than insulted, it means I'm holding you to a higher standard than GMo.

Or maybe I'm just numb to people saying "X is lying" when they mean "X is wrong". I did not read that post as antagonistic in the same way as I did yours.

[Something_Smart]

Like, I don't even have a good idea about who to vote for rn, and that's because the game is only about GS and I while scum lurks in the background and takes advantage of what was likely a TvT spat.

You think GS is town? On their own merits, or just because of the attention this conflict has received?

I feel like the only one drawing attention to it, besides GS themselves, has been me.