Micro 1082 - I’m the Real Tracker (Day 4)

[Donempire]

Here is the way i imagine D2 starting as a whole with what i am saying just FYI.

Every player claims their night target.
Once this has completed, every player can also claim whether the night targets make sense to them (Allows for Tracker/Inspector/Loyal Checker to give their info, while protected by pretenders/People claiming Roleblocked with no visits on them.)

Examples as follows;

X is a doctor, they attempted to protect Y
Y was killed at night, no one claims to visit X at night, therefore X claims that they believe there is False information. if someone claims to have visited X, then they claim that they believe they have true information.
Y wasn't killed at night, X will claim that they believe there is true information.

X is a Tracker, They visited Y and got that they visited Z
Y claims to have visited X at night, therefore X claims that they believe there is False information.
Y claims to have visited Z at night, therefore X claims that they believe there is True information.

X is a Loyal Checker, they checked Y at night
For a failure, If no one visited X at night, they claim False information, If someone visited X at night, they claim they have true information.
For a completion of the action, if someone visited X at night, they claim False information, If someone didn't visit X at night, the claim True information.

X is an Inspector, they checked Y at night.
For a positive, if no one claims to have visited Y at night, they claim False information, if someone claims to visit Y at night, they claim True information
For a negative, if no one claims to have visited Y at night, they claim True information, if someone claims to visit Y at night, they claim False information.

The rest can claim randomly.

Note that the above allows truthful claims from Tracker/Loyal Checker/Inspector that the scum can't cleanly identify before a flip, and post a flip, town can have truthful information as to who the PR has visited, and their result.

The random and Pretender claims also cleanly hide each of these PR's fairly well.

Note: i don't think this really breaks the setup all that much, it just hinders scum from lying in their claims.

I ain't reading all that

VOTE: Bingle

[Donempire]

I'm missing something.

So mafia can get the seeking neighbour role, and if a town and mafia get the role then that would mean the role essentially becomes useless as now you're not proving to each other your role by being neighbours, yes? In that case, what does finding your neighbour, bingle, would prove except that you are not a pretender?

[Donempire]

I'm missing something.

So mafia can get the seeking neighbour role, and if a town and mafia get the role then that would mean the role essentially becomes useless as now you're not proving to each other your role by being neighbours, yes? In that case, what does finding your neighbour, bingle, would prove except that you are not a pretender?

The utility in the role isn't in finding the neighbors, but in allowing pretenders who were told they were neighbors to find themselves.

Neighbor is basically a VT for this setup, but pretender is ~ 1/2 a named towny.

I see your point, thanks!

Pretenders are still twice as likely to be town than mafia though, since theres a limit of 1 pretender per mafia. In the case we can get solid confirmation - meaning without any doubt - that someone is a pretender, i believe they would be more important than just a vt, as a mafia pretender elim would confirm the pretender as town on the spot. With a doctor it also reduces the chance of a night kill.

Sorry for being too caught up in mech-talk, i'm trying to put everything in order before i can start fully.

[Donempire]

I feel a no lim is still our best option. Even with people disagreeing with me. Everyone has a power this game, even if you're a pretender, you're going to do something and get information. Which means everyone is going to be playing for their survival more than to solve today because everyone will be of the opinion they're important and need to see out the day so they can hopefully avoid the NK and get their ability off to save the day for town.

I do however think it's probably more advantageous than my usual "just end the day asap" to spend more time trying to solve the game and get a good feel for everyone so that everyone can target appropriately. We should not lim today.

Contrary to this i believe a no-lim is the worst option. Best outcome is we elim scum, 2/9 chance, and the next best option would be to elim a pretender to reduce the amount of bogus results, as well as clearing the rolelist. Even with a mafia pretender the chance in 1/3, and this is without considering that we will scumhunt raising the probability of a good elim to %100

7 Days is plenty of time. We'll find something. And at this point claiming on the spot shouldn't put too much pressure even for important roles per the pretender rolls. We march forward.

[Donempire]

So, filler post. I'm playing in my finals week so thats why i have not been posting at all. I have to take a break now and prepare for one of my exams. After this i'll give the thread a read through and then be afk for another day for another important exam, i believe after tomorrow i'll be free to talk further. Sorry about this.

[Donempire]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

[Donempire]

I'm a seeking neighbor. No other seeking neighbor should claim, but if you're a seeking neighbor, you can target me. If I get no neighborhood, I will be taking this as confirmation that I'm a faker.

I will be randomly targeting a player who is not me. This is the extent of the mechanical discussion we need D1.

So first line, the second half of this line is unnecessary, and seems to be deliberately setting up for a fail, the reason this can be bad, is i can see a Mafia X claiming seeking neighbor, we have no way of confirming that you aren't that, so this becomes a huge issue.

In fact to add to why this is dumb, we don't actually get confirmation of you not being fake just because a neighborhood doesn't spawn, it's either your fake, or the other seeking neighbor was roleblocked.

Second line is also an issue, your already getting the seeking neighbor to target you, why do you need to target a random player, this seems like setting up a scum kill, with a simple "well i said i'd target randomly" when in this case you should be targeting no one, if you are actually town, hence why i think you should be absolutely roleblocked.

The possibility of a mafia neighbour is one i considered as well, hence why i asked him about what claiming neighbour proves.

I am content with what i am told though, and i don't think mechanical discussion will get us any further than where we are. But yes, most roles especially roleblockers should be on jingle no matter what.

As for the targeting part, i agree. If he is neighbour, which i believe regardless of alignment, he should have no reason to visit anyone. It's interesting that he highlighted that, but for now i'm inclined to believe that was simply an oversight on his part.

[Donempire]

also, UNVOTE: since i don't know who my vote is parked on.

[Donempire]

Like just to be clear, these votes on Delta are bad, this is just Delta being Delta, and honestly i think it's town Delta myself.

Kowah is probably also town, Bingle still feels scummy but seems like it might just be mech clash, and Merlyn i'm still unclear on.

UNVOTE: Bingle
VOTE: Invisibility

You should know Delta already better then this, so why exactly is Delta the person you are jumping on?

Interesting, out of all these the kowah read is the one i'm in the most opposition of. The guy just seemed to create confusion with his no-lim strategy, then just discard it without elaborating further. I don't see the point of this at all.

Normally i would attribute disorganized posting to townies as they don't have a plan set unlike scum, who i assume have a day chat. However, even as the no-lim strat bore no fruit, i don't see what they were going for with it in the first place, leading me to believe they just did it to make it seem like they were contributing. I'm curious if you have another opinion.

[Donempire]

I have nothing to say about mechanical stuff cuz I am bad at mechanical stuff

This is a town-leaning post. Scum would have liked the discussion devolving into mech-talk.

[Donempire]

I feel a no lim is still our best option. Even with people disagreeing with me. Everyone has a power this game, even if you're a pretender, you're going to do something and get information. Which means everyone is going to be playing for their survival more than to solve today because everyone will be of the opinion they're important and need to see out the day so they can hopefully avoid the NK and get their ability off to save the day for town.

I do however think it's probably more advantageous than my usual "just end the day asap" to spend more time trying to solve the game and get a good feel for everyone so that everyone can target appropriately. We should not lim today.

Contrary to this i believe a no-lim is the worst option. Best outcome is we elim scum, 2/9 chance, and the next best option would be to elim a pretender to reduce the amount of bogus results, as well as clearing the rolelist. Even with a mafia pretender the chance in 1/3, and this is without considering that we will scumhunt raising the probability of a good elim to %100

7 Days is plenty of time. We'll find something. And at this point claiming on the spot shouldn't put too much pressure even for important roles per the pretender rolls. We march forward.

I agree we should just revert to site meta look for scum kill scum. but if you believe it's the worst option shouldn't it be alignment indicative to you?

At that time, not necessarily.

As i said before, just spitballing ideas is not scummy in itself, even if the ideas in question are on the surface, nonsensical, if you have a reason for pushing that idea. I waited on seeing if he had anything further to elaborate on why this made sense aside from his two posts advocating for it, but he seems to have dropped it.

I think i have more of a problem with him bringing up this idea of no-limming and just dropping it with no explanation, rather than him bringing it up at all. I still don't want to commit to a read as he hasn't been on the thread for a while and i'll wait if he has anything else to add to this.

[Donempire]

But yes, most roles especially roleblockers should be on jingle no matter what.

they should?

Sure, if he is neighbour then he has no use for his night action. If he isn't and is faking it for some reason, then obviously roleblocker should also be on him as he wouldn't be trustworthy.

Besides, roleblocker has a 1/8 chance of stopping the night kill. Much higher likelihood of stopping an usefull role like inspector or loyal checker than stopping mafias kill, meaning we're not giving up an invaluable asset with our n1 roleblock either. Of course all these are assuming a town roleblocker.

[Donempire]

Meta itself is a tool that can be applied well. In this particular case, I think Merlyn saw a particular thing and jumped to an unwarranted conclusion without poking further: I think that what you did in that game and what you're doing in this game are different enough that asking why they are different can definitely lead to alignment indicative information.

Can you elaborate on why you think no lim is good WITH discussion here, compared to why you wanted no discussion for no lim in the other game?

I believe I mentioned this but it was probably brief.

This game everyone is a town power today. So scum will shoot tonight and will hit one. Of course, best case is they snag a pretender. But until that flip happens, everyone is (and by is I mean they personally) are of the belief they're a town power. So from that POV, scum cannot find a town power they want to find. There is no way for them to say in scum chat "x is a town pr" and especially no real way for them to say "x is a specific town pr". With that now said, the point in the previous game, and others, is that hiding the town PRs with no conversation and just no lim voting allows a greater chance for all town prs to make something happen N1, gives scum nothing more than a shot in the dark to locate one, and to me the odds say N1 will be better for town a majority of the time if played like that.

In this game, since every town can submit a night action tonight, then might as well talk to help town decide who they want to target. Because it's essentially just a shot in the dark for scum on who actually to kill. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if scum have already decided. If scum has anyone who knows the general player base well enough, they've probably already got it in their head who is the most dangerous townie to keep around from a pure scum hunting POV and will just off that person tonight.

This makes sense from a mechanical standpoint, ONLY if there were no pretenders. And even then it doesn't make sense from a practical standpoint, because the tradeoff for not revealing town pr's is axing discussion way too much to be preferable.

So for the mechanical part, we know that there will be 2 fake results from the pretenders and 2 fake results from scum. Assuming they kill one non pretender, then thats half the town revealing fake results. That to me is not making something happen, it just creates more confusion in town as you're muddying the waters even more, trying to find scum within a sea of bs info while trying to scumhunt as you would normally.
As for scum killing a dangerous townie, they will do that regardless of who claims whatever role. Someone can claim loyal checker right now, and rest easy knowing they probably won't be targeted since there's a not unlikely chance that they're just a pretender. Besides, no one is pushing for people to mass roleclaim, i'm just against no limming.

And the practical part as i said is too much to sacrifice for protecting some power roles that don't even need protection with a doctor in game. Eliminating someone isn't just killing someone suspicious and seeing their role, it's also analyzing how the wagon forms, reasonings wagoners put forth in their elim, analyzing counterwagons if there are any and so on... Point is, there are far more to limming than just bumping someone off. I'm not convinced that whatever you're telling with regards to no limming is worth giving up much more we would get with even a policy lim.

[Donempire]

I got town leans on invisibility for now. I see where kowah was going with his idea, but i'm still unsure of their alignment. I'd need to see some more posting before i can make a definite read.
I dislike delta's rhetoric. I think they are too tied down in semantics arguments. I'd put them at a slight scumlean.

Everyone else is null. I'd rather not make a readlist without speaking with people directly and clearing up some confusions first. Makes me feel self-righteous otherwise.

Night lads

[Donempire]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

why didn't you warn kowah then that his actions were helping scum? and I feel like you are assuming a lot in kowah's intentions like he did x so y must be true it doesn't follow logically. In fact his inconsistency does give me pause let me do y but do x instead. I think that itself is worth exploring. at what point does someone go from 'spitballing' to advocating?

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

I did warn him.

And i do believe i still haven't made a definite read on kowah, hence why my vote is not on him.

[Donempire]

Shit, posted early. Continuing post 232...

I still wanna see where kowah goes from here, and part of why i'm reading intentions is because there just isn't enough of his posting for me to go off on. I can only make guesses from experience and from seeing who benefits from his kind of posting.

Throwing around ideas at day start is not the same as sounding those same ideas when there are 3 days until deadline. Thats when spitballing turns into advocacy.

[Donempire]

But yes, most roles especially roleblockers should be on jingle no matter what.

they should?

Sure, if he is neighbour then he has no use for his night action. If he isn't and is faking it for some reason, then obviously roleblocker should also be on him as he wouldn't be trustworthy.

Besides, roleblocker has a 1/8 chance of stopping the night kill. Much higher likelihood of stopping an usefull role like inspector or loyal checker than stopping mafias kill, meaning we're not giving up an invaluable asset with our n1 roleblock either. Of course all these are assuming a town roleblocker.

Don't you think it would make more sense for the RB to block who they think is scum? I mean yeah if they are wrong then they potentially block a useful role, but I still think that's a better play than blocking someone you townread

Scum don't have usefull powerroles. You could argue inspector and tracker have utility, but town has far more use for them. Even if roleblocker rbs a mafia power it would do no good if that was a mafia doctor. It has to be the mafkilling otherwise it's useless.

Point is, town needs their results tonight, scum might not.

[Donempire]

Huh. I'm at l-1 i believe. Didn't know you guys hated me this much...

[Donempire]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

Everyone will be able to provide information of what they did or what result they got tomorrow if they wanted to. To me this is amazing for town because I believe the game is a race of information. There is a finite amount of information this game has. Scum start with a head start but the sooner town can match the amount scum have, or simply pass it, then the sooner town should win.

To me it feels like this game used to have a bit more of a roleplay aspect to it from all players. But now days it seems more like scum can drop that charade and just get on with it while town feel like they've got to play this game like they're sherlock holmes, holding their cards close to their chest, and not wanting to give anyone else any info because they want all the glory to figure it out themselves.

I feel strongly right now that a game like this where everyone has a role, even if some roles aren't real, could be solved by a mass sharing of info on D1 followed by a no lim to maximize the info provided tomorrow. That scum would be unable to hide by the end of the game. But I think the disconnect between me and literally everyone else that plays, is that the whole town playerbase wants to win the game by limming scum every day until there's none left with the unrealistic goal of the entire town making it out alive. While I understand that's the spirit of the game, and that I'm probably playing against the spirt of the game, I'm just here trying to win. To me, to win a game of mafia is simple. You force scum to lie. The sooner they have less rocks to hide behind, the sooner they have to lie to hide, the sooner it's more likely someone catches them lying.

However, I'm not trying to ruin 8 other people's game. These are just my opinion of it, and I'm not going to stomp my feet until I get what I want. I bring it up, see what interest there is in my theory, and if it's dead on arrival like usual then I'll just fall in line and play the game that everyone wants to play.

You're still thinking in perfectionist terms. What you're claiming here is that the more town there is, the more information we'll have when thats simply factually untrue. I already said that half the town will give bogus info assuming a night kill. What you also lose here with this is the ability to deduce from past wagons and pushes since you blindly go for a no lim day one.

Mass claiming would also be a similarly magnificent mistake. You're outing the doctor for no reason which cannot heal itself, so barring a pretender doctor claim as well that is just a dead doc at arrival. You're outing your investigatives, and at that point you're just hoping that a pretender rolled inspector so they can tank the hit instead of the real inspector, and thats assuming the inspector rolled town in the first place. You're outing your roleblocker as well, which scum can reverse engineer into assuming who they'll roleblock to try either framing the guy or just avoiding making the kill with who you suspect will be rbd. And so on and so on, and... for what exactly? We know the rolelist already, it's not like c9 where you get one roleset out of a dozen, we already know which roles there are. The only thing it does is out the pretenders as the duplicate roles will be apparent, and leave the other power roles naked.

So your plan would blow up unless we rolled a doc and 2 pretender docs, as that is just giving scum free info they don't have access to.

I don't think you're trying to ruin the game. I just think you're not thinking this through fully, which makes me even more confident you're just pushing this to make the appearence of creating content. I believe a town!kowah would either have had better explanations on this no limming theory, or just dropped it when they realized the plan didn't make sense after a retrospective. The situation as it stands, looks like you came up with an idea and now are just sticking with it just to.

And on that note, you are voting me... So you changed your mind to a pro-limming strat? I would like you to explain why you changed your mind as between this post and voting me there was nothing except 2 bingle posts.

[Donempire]

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

I would hammer it right now if I could.

Interesting.

Not the what, but the why. I've listened to "what" you found appealing about a no-lim strategy. Now to figure out "why" you turned to the light side.

This isn't the first time you voted, so i would be remiss if i said you were just flipping on a "lim strategy" now. You also voted bingle. However, i think your vote on me represents a more serious change since i'm at l-1, whereas in 90 your vote simply had the goal of pushing a scumread. So what is my point?

Well, you put forth more or less a comprehensive argument for what you saw in the no-limming. I already responded to what i found flawed, but that's not my issue right now.
My issue is, you write up an argument for why no-limming makes sense to you, and immediately after that you vote me?
This kind of thing is what makes me believe you have no conviction behind your postings. I really don't care if you put forth a horrible strategy, because that is not inherently scummy. I've said as such in my previous posts, and i was waiting to see not necessarily how you expanded on your idea, but rather if you expanded on it and stood by it, or retracted the idea after you couldn't justify it any longer. Instead, you've not only elaborated further on your idea, but you also seemingly abandoned it right after. Begging the question, why in the first place did you bother justifying a no-lim strategy? You dont owe me an explanation, you could've just said that you didn't stand by it anymore. There is no reason for such a sharp strategical turn for town, if you believe a strategy you'd think you would stick by it at least until someone made a sufficient rebuttal, which didn't happen. If you didn't believe in it anymore, then why did you write up all that conveying the importance of no-limming?

The way i see it, town!kowah has no reason for following this thought process. I would love to hear if you had a reasonable explanation for this turn. However, scum!kowah wouldn't mind this, as this would put them at the best spot as they wouldn't be called out for "dodging questions" by giving an explanation to me, and then to avoid being turned on (by too aggressively pushing their idea) they would park their vote on me, an advancing wagon, so the focus of the town would turn on to me.

[Donempire]

Scum don't have usefull powerroles.

This seems like such a definitive point to make. I believe it further adds to how I currently feel about this slot.

Also, don't you think that scum getting roles that are more beneficial to town than to scum, a benefit to scum since town don't get them?

I'd rather not devolve into mech-talk further. I'll answer since you're pressing me on this.

Doctor and loyal checker are useless roles for scum. Other powerroles have negligible uses.

[Donempire]

Scumread.

VOTE: Kowah

I act like i am waiting on kowahs explanation on how he is town here, but i'm afraid that ship sailed after his last few posts. I was waiting on their action following me pressing them on their strategy to vote them, and they did pretty much what i expected.

I would also say that political clout is a townlean for now. I might elaborate if needed.
Black i would say hasn't posted enough for me to get a definite read, but if i had to i would also put them at a townlean.
Bingle and JW have been too caught up in mechtalk for me to get a good read on them.
Appearence.................... hasn't made an appearence in a long time so i have no read on them either.

All my other reads haven't changed.

[Donempire]

I would also say that political clout is a townlean for now. I might elaborate if needed.

This is the only read I don't get. PC's reads don't really mesh with mine and I also don't really like how he jumped on your wagon

So uhh.... i think you two would be mad if i said i forgot, and i swear i had a post in his iso i was going to show, but i can't find it now so...

Weathers mighty fine isn't it? It's been raining here in Ankara non stop for about 2 weeks now. I live in whats essentially steppe climate and even here we had really lush greens due to the constant raining. Pretty cool right?

[Donempire]

Also welcome abne!

[Donempire]

Scumread.

VOTE: Kowah

I act like i am waiting on kowahs explanation on how he is town here, but i'm afraid that ship sailed after his last few posts. I was waiting on their action following me pressing them on their strategy to vote them, and they did pretty much what i expected.

I would also say that political clout is a townlean for now. I might elaborate if needed.
Black i would say hasn't posted enough for me to get a definite read, but if i had to i would also put them at a townlean.
Bingle and JW have been too caught up in mechtalk for me to get a good read on them.
Appearence.................... hasn't made an appearence in a long time so i have no read on them either.

All my other reads haven't changed.

after this much mech talk I'm incline to believe it's alignment indicative but to me the jason mech talk he was content to leave it at his first post on mech talk and was merely answering questions about it that struck me as town bingle has actively and openly engaged in it I think it replaces a lot of content this is just my opinion but that's how I see the situation. do you think it's alignment indicative? what I also don't like is that bingle agreed with me about playing it like an all vanilla game and then continued to do it that is my highest gripe with the mech talk I think.

I already said its not alignment indicative. Even if i didn't play with jingle before he himself said that he does his mech-analysis the same regardless of his role.

As for jason, he replaced out, so any reads i would have had for his spot (which wasn't comprehensive) are irrelevant.

[Donempire]

I would also say that political clout is a townlean for now. I might elaborate if needed.

This is the only read I don't get. PC's reads don't really mesh with mine and I also don't really like how he jumped on your wagon

So uhh.... i think you two would be mad if i said i forgot, and i swear i had a post in his iso i was going to show, but i can't find it now so...

Weathers mighty fine isn't it? It's been raining here in Ankara non stop for about 2 weeks now. I live in whats essentially steppe climate and even here we had really lush greens due to the constant raining. Pretty cool right?

i wish it would rain here. canada is being ravaged by wildfires and the air quality is terrible.

/oog
My condolences! I have friends in the DC area and they told me the fires even reached where they were living so i can't even imagine what it is for someone living in Vancouver or Montreal. Apparently western canada also had some wildfires a few months back and now its stabilized, hopefully everything gets better for you soon.

[Donempire]

i like voting don empire because jason was voting don empire I don't like voting donempire because kowahbunga is voting him makes me want to get off the wagon. I don't like that don empire suddenly voted kowah back after all the hemming and hawwing about the slot. that is a bit about what im feeling right now.

Lol. Can you quote where i hemmd and hawwd on kowah? I didnt vote him until he explained himself, and i voted him after he did and i was unconvinced. You did this with Black and before this you also claimed i didn't tell kowah his nolim strat was bad, stop putting words in my mouth.

[Donempire]

PC what is your mafia experience?

let's say i'm a newer player what would you say and let's say i'm an experienced player what would you say? because I'm going to be open and tell you right now that I think you are going nowhere with this question and i'm going to circle it back around and say just like with kowah you didn't go anywhere and didn't take it anywhere. ultimately how does it help you solve my slot?

What kind of answer is this? Just answer the question, i can ask the same question to you, what are you going to do with how he solves your slot? This kind of behaviour not only brings unnecessary hostility, it also abruptly stops conversation. You asked me questions you could have found the answer by ctrl f'ing, when have i told you your questions were pointless? Let her answer decide that.

[Donempire]

Okay, i'm not going to clutter the thread with political clout posts because thats what would happen if i tried responded to every one of his problematic posts. I was somewhat town leaning on him before but i haven't seen such a crazy turn in my life, it's like there are two different players on the account. The posts are uncooperative, hostile and seems to be attempting to stop discussion at all costs. It's like he has his mind set on every slot. Its so bad that i think scum wouldn't be this abrasive, but it doesn't change the tone of his posts. I don't know if you have your period or what, but this shit doesn't look good.

VOTE: PC
Should be l-2 if the unofficial vc is correct. I'd like to warn people anyway.

Btw, don't take this as an indicator that my view on kowah has changed(political might try doing it with his track record), it's just that this is a worst slot in my eyes right now.

[Donempire]

@don - your reasons to vote kowah are fair, i just disagree with them. i don't think it's lack of conviction in a no-execution plan that's causing them to abandon the idea and vote people anyway. my impression of their posting is that they see their plan is highly unlikely to go anywhere and find it pointless to keep pressing the issue. to me, that's a plausible mindset to have as town. kowah, feel free to correct me on any of that if i've misread your posting.

It's one way to read it. But i believe post 243 contradicts your logic, as he says he "doesn't want to ruin 8 people's game" for his pushing this plan. If your theory is right and he is town pushing an idea he finds plausible, why would he be worried pushing this further would damage the game? The way he talks about it, it's a strategy that would break open the game, his exact words in his second post. So why would he not be steadfast on such a good strategy? For me, the pressure was starting to mount on him with a small wagon forming, so he tried to go back to tried and truth mafia gaming instead of raising too much eyebrows by having to defend his idea. As scum, you wouldn't want to be put under the spotlight, as town though it shouldn't matter being on e-1 if you were sure of your strategy and wanted it implemented.

Also the way he said 8 people is also suspect to me, as for town!kowah that also includes the 2 scum. Might be a personality thing, but if i had a button that revealed the 2 scum with no strings attached, i would press it as well as post mocking videos after the fact. So unless it's his conscience getting the best of him, why would he be afraid of ruining the game of scum? Maybe i'm overthinking it.

I understand your point. As scum you don't really have a benefit in pushing a dead on arrival strategy with such fervor. Since we've talked about his posts in detail already, i would also say it's important to consider how much of his posting has malice and how much of it has to do with ineptidute.

also, what's your read on pc right now?

[Donempire]

that's actually e-1 because i voted.

UNVOTE:

Consider PC e-1 anyway. I'll wait until more people join the conversation.

[Donempire]

I'm vaguely okay with Black's content at the moment, but that could be a playstyle thing. I think she's being pretty reasonable with her interactions with people, and also I've liked a few of her takes, but that could well be that I'm wrong about things and she's taking advantage of it.

I think JW arguing that something is simultaneously mechanically proscum to push me and mechanically protown to make the thing more mechanically proscum is scum indicative. I think that's pretty clear from my posting?

Honestly, I've been kind of glazing over your back and forth with Black tonight and if I were to try and give it a read atm I'd say it feels like a TvT, but that's also not fair at all to the interaction because I'm burned out from 11 hours at work and skipping lunch, so I'll get back to you when my brain is a little bit less of a pile of mush. If you want, you could give me a teal dear of what you're picking up and I can give you an impression, but I'm certainly going to read it more closely tomorrow.

Can you point out where JW did that? I'm isoing him and i couldn't find what you're talking about.

[Donempire]

I think Black and PC are town. If one isn't, I would say it's Black. At least one is, but I'm thinking both are.

Can you tell me why you think that? Point out a few posts that stick out please.

[Donempire]

Abnegation replaces Deltabreedy

welcome what do you think of black?

so far a lot of people that is my feeling has said it's town v town. I think I can institute wisdom of the crowds here and say I'm wrong I would like fresh eyes to look at the interaction and see what they say first.

Black pointed this out but i'd like to point it out again. You're voting for me, and your first instinct is to ask about black? Wouldn't you want to know the alignment of the person you're putting on the chopping block first, or do you really have to prepare your d2 elim? Sorry to burst your bubble mate, neither of us are dying today or tomorrow.

[Donempire]

I have nothing to say about mechanical stuff cuz I am bad at mechanical stuff

This is a town-leaning post. Scum would have liked the discussion devolving into mech-talk.

This is a stretch.....and didn't you just go right back into mech stuff as well?

Welcome doc! Don't believe i gave you a proper greeting.

As for me, i think you're doing me a disservice. In post 183, i am responding to invis' question which pertains to game mechanics, it would be rude if i didn't.
As for post 184, kowah's theory also has to be refuted in mechanical terms, and you'll see that i try not to emphasize the mech part over the practical part.
I see your concern however, and i'm fine elaborating.

[Donempire]

alright, so here's where i'm at.
bingle/dr. drew/invis/kowah are all townleans of various degrees and i wouldn't vote them today.
black is a bit of a complicated read. i don't find her scummy, but i also know she's good at scum and i don't expect scum!her to play in a scummy way. might be better to give this one some time.
don is null because i'm too lazy to read his wallposting. appearance is null due to lack of content.
i'm fine with pc wagon.

VOTE: political clout

e-2.
also, mech question. is there a benefit to having people claim at e-1/intent in this setup?

Hey! That's rude.

On the other hand, i'm way more spammy this game than i normally am. If you saw my usual posts where the texts take up half the screen, i think you would vomit.

[Donempire]

I was somewhat town leaning on him before

you don't gotta get the specific posts if you don't wanna but can you summarize why you thought this?

I liked his post 226 for a few reasons. I explained that i did warn kowah, but the second part of his question is not without merit. Of course, assuming comes naturally while scumhunting since people don't act in predetermined ways, and like abne did posts can be interpreted differently; but i feel the question was the extent of my assumptions and not me assuming things in itself, which i felt was a good question considering my post he was responding to had a lot of unfounded assumptions. I also agree with his comment on inconsistency, as i explained to abne we also have to keep in mind what can be explained with malice, and what can be explained simply with inexperience.

Also post 114 felt genuine to me.

The read itself was mostly gut from a few of his other posts as well, but these ones were the ones i wanted to highlight. It wasn't that strong of a read though.

[Donempire]

As for post 184, kowah's theory also has to be refuted in mechanical terms, and you'll see that i try not to emphasize the mech part over the practical part.
I see your concern however, and i'm fine elaborating.

did this help you solve or was it more of a clarifying thing

Sorry invis, i missed this yesterday.

It was a bit of both. I think the mech part of it could be explained by him just not considering what i laid out for him, so it was more just clarification.
As for the fact his nolimming would leave us with no clues the next day, it's such a core mafia concept that i can't believe it just slipped his mind, which made me suspect of his slot.

[Donempire]

As for jason, he replaced out, so any reads i would have had for his spot (which wasn't comprehensive) are irrelevant.

You're saying you won't analyze his behavior because he's gone? I get that Drew can't answer for him, but we at least know what he did and can apply that knowledge.

It's principle for me. Firstly, drew's here so i'd rather converse with someone here instead of drawing conclusions from someone not here.
Secondly, since he replaced out, any questions i have and pressure i could put on jason are pointless since he can't respond to them, and i can't expect drew to respond for them.

[Donempire]

I know I'm in a very small minority of people that feel the way I do about the game of mafia. In fact I've yet to see anyone agree with me since coming back to this site. If I bring it up, I see if anyone else is interested. It doesn't change my opinion, but do you think if I sat here stomping my feet trying to convince 8 people to play this game way differently than anyone plays this game, that it would be good for this game?

If you're asking me if i had the perfect strategy for this game, then of course i'd push it as hard as i can. In fac,t i'd block other avenues as much as i can as well to force people into either discussing or outright implementing my strat. After all why not? If you have a golden egg and 8 people call it a regular egg, does that make it a regular egg? Or do you just gain bragging rights for after the game?

In short, yes, it would be great. Worst thing that can happen is you get limmed, after the fact people might take your idea more into consideration which should be fine as town. Not so fine for scum.

[Donempire]

I don't scum read Kowah, I think I have finally settled on that lol.

why is that? is it related to their recent posting?

Yes, and I wasn't feeling too strongly about them either way as well......still not tbh, but leaning more town.

Also VOTE: PC

E-1

I have been leaning towards PC anyways, and feel there is more support here than done

This post feels off to me. There's time left on deadline and i was active while PC wasn't, so i don't really understand the vote

now

when there's time to discuss since this to me essentially indicates an intent to lim, and an intent to end discussion.

[Donempire]

uhhhhhh, no.
i strongly object to the idea that voting to end the day 12 hours before deadline in a game where the deadline is 9 days + extensions is in any way suspicious. also dr. drew had previously stated he wouldn't be around at deadline.
i can see a world where you just forgot that time zones exist but i think that's sus of you.
i'll only be up for another hour-ish though and i don't think switching to you is viable. pc is still sus and better than a no-execution.

Well i just woke up so it's 12 hours for me. Morning

I still believe the game is far from being solved. The 3 replacements are one reason, appearence and pc being inactive is another. 20 pages in 10 days is nothing.

[Donempire]

VC

[Donempire]

i am questioning why doc took issue with invis questioning me.
i thought that question was a fair one, given that all my reasons were in spoilers.

on the contrary, i actually find it townish for drew to poke on that

it makes more sense after 469.

got that.
ngl invis would be worth checking, depend on pc flip.

what's up with you talking about who you think the investigatives should check? this wouldn't be the first time you've done that today.

what's up with you talking about who you think the investigatives should check? this wouldn't be the first time you've done that today.

i'll explain tommorow
(it's to do with my role)

I don't really like this from Appearance ngl

I didn't want to press this since it reverts to mech talk but i agree, especially considering this is his only meaningfull contribution.

[Donempire]

Hey

[Donempire]

So whoever was roleblocked is confirmed not scum.

I will say i wasn't roleblocked. Also we should mass claim since the pretender is confirmed town, meaning anyone claiming an impossible role ( like second doc) is confirmed to be town

And so on so forth. I'm neighbour for what it's worth.

[Donempire]

meaning anyone claiming an impossible role ( like second doc) is confirmed to be town

how will we know which one is the pretender

Havent thought that far yet
We could try something based on the role thats doubled, for example if there are two roleblocker claims then we just ask their night results and see if their target really got no result.

[Donempire]

Kowah is confirmed town. Interesting, perhaps we should try the no-lim strategy after all.

[Donempire]

1. Bingle - Neighbor, targeted Black
2. Doctor Drew Doc, targeted Someone
3. Invisibility, Tracker Kowahbunga -> Nowhere
4. Donempire Neighbor, targeted Bingle
5. Black, RB targeted Kowah
8. Kowahbunga, Tracker Black -> Vizzy
9. Appearance, Loyal Checker - Vizzy

Invisibility clears Kowah.
Appearance clears Vizzy.
Kowah is probably pretender.

That leaves 5 unconfirmed players.

We're not yeeting App, Doc, Vizzy, Black, Kowah today.

Doc Drew targets Vizzy, as a conftown cop.
Vizzy confs Appearance.
Appearance Confs Black
Black confs whichever of me/Don isn't today's lim.

Tomorrow, if Vizzy dies, it's either doc or rb who broke it, and we'll have an invest on rb. If anyone else dies, we should have enough clears to finish the PoE. If no one dies we can no lim for more info.

Sounds good by me. Only problem would be if roleblocker is scum, as that can throw off investigative results but i trust black.
One problem however is doc drews not confirmed yet.

[Donempire]

VOTE: Don

Then I'm happy starting here because this was my scum read yesterday.

How the turntables..

[Donempire]

I need to chart this out on a piece of paper, which slightly difficult due to travel, but I think limming today might lead to a forced 1v1 in several cases.

I haven’t looked at No lims, but this might well be one of the rare instances where we can satisfy kowahs lack of bloodlust with optimal play.

That's sort of what im thinking too. We have 2 confirmed town, and both roleblocker and checker can confirm 1 person nightly, by checker confirming black first, then someone else while black confirms another people, which leaves only 1 person if evil isn't found by then (which would be the checker)

So here's how it would go:
Invis(confirmed tracker)
Kowah(confirmed pretender)
Doc drew
Donempire
Bingle
Black
Appearance

N2, Black goes on me, appearance checks black, tracker checks app.
If none of them die, then we have 2 more conf town as well as me if i didnt die. Meaning its one od bingle or doc, we lim one and rb the other.
If no one dies, we lim me and since its down to doc and bingle now, we get two invest on one and rb the other for game.
I'm not sure if directing the doc is the correct play but i believe since apperance both clears someone and is cleared himself doc should be on him. Regardless i think the game is over to mech play so if we no lim until we know the scum for sure even if we're down to 3 people then we just autowin. Since we know the pretender we also know invis' results arent bogus.

[Donempire]

We won anyway. Kinda cringe to win a game through shoddy design but what can you do. I'm for no limming today and waiting for night results. I'm fine with getting limmed as well but i believe that would take longer.

VOTE: no elimination

[Donempire]

Appearance not being conf doesn't mean his results have a chance of being wrong.

If he's town, then his results are true due to the fact he's town.
If he's scum, his results are true due to the fact he's the last scum remaining.

You're right about the no kill situation, but if a no kill happens thats just more opportunity for investigation.

[Donempire]

Honestly town's hand is so stacked that we can afford to make all sorts of mistakes and still win

[Donempire]

Nope, between me and drew now. You also aren't cleared since kowah is a pretender, but i'm pretty sure its doc at this point.

I don't want to throw at this point still, so we should wait if invis has someone cleared. If not, we can no lim another day and after one more conftown we autowin. (5p->mislim and nk->3p, only one non conf left)

[Donempire]

Or let's just get this over with and get em outta here

VOTE: Doctor Dre

[Donempire]

Or let's just get this over with and get em outta here

VOTE: Doctor Dre

Doctor Dre is a studio gangster.

Doctor Drew is OG.

Is this how it has to go down?

VOTE: Don

You're right, but who do people think of when they hear OG, Dre or Drew?

Clout is everything man, dre got his name heard. You need better pr people for sure.

[Donempire]

Appearance visited Bladk

TBC, appearance could not have visited black if she was scum. Appearance’s action would have failed and been a no target result.

Need a littlw help clearing this up. In the role card it says the "action" will succeed. Now i'm wondering if that action is visiting, or getting a result. If it's the former it confirms black, but if it's the latter and he could have visited without getting a result, then that's trouble. In a scum!black scenario as she can both rb and kill doc will have no way of confirming himself, as he can't heal invis.

Now i don't think this is likely, we still have to be wary of every possibility.

Well, the lim went through regardless, if it happens that doc is somehow town, then we'll finally have some reason to be playing this game. I'll get you next time Black!!

[Donempire]

VOTE: don

One more vote before mod gets here and i can legally get limmed. Truth.

[Donempire]

I think of Og, Caveman Gangster Extraordinaire. Sometimes it pays to live thousands of years before your competition.

Since cavemen have no laws or cops, Og couldn't be a gangster, making him a fake ass clout chaser. Besides even if he was, his musics very overrated and primitive.

[Donempire]

VOTE: Don

Gg. I tried my best. I'll play in a semi open next time to not autolose.

[Donempire]

How the turntables....

I already explained the situation to bingle in our private chat. I'll elaborate a bit for kowah as well.

See, town was still in autowim from yesterday even with a miselim of drew. Here's how: Assume that i'm scum. Me and black are the only unconfirmed left, so black rbs me. No kill goes through, and we have 5p so even a miselim wins town the game. This is one scenario, the one where i'm scum, and one that clearly didn't happen.

So we move on to scenario two, assume black is scum. This is also the only scenario where a kill can go through, as with scum!me i get rbd and fail the kill leading to autowin. She kills invis which is the only invest role at this point, and this confirms her as scum since like i said, i can't make a kill go through with town!black.

As for my "scum slip", chalk it up to some friendly banter. It's not the first you've seen of my shitposting. And besides, if i had conceded, i wouldn't have put a night action in especially with a roleblocker. Taking blacks claim for granted also assumes that i knew she would somehow be unable to post a night action, and yet she was able to respond within an hour of the thread opening, which is very coincidental.

[Donempire]

Now kowah, you might be wondering why then bingle cleared black. Well, he misunderstood the mechanics of the loyal checker, even as i accurately pointed out that the "action" that failed mentioned in the checker rolecard

was the night result, not the visit

.

Appearance visited Bladk

TBC, appearance could not have visited black if she was scum. Appearance’s action would have failed and been a no target result.

Need a littlw help clearing this up. In the role card it says the "action" will succeed. Now i'm wondering if that action is visiting, or getting a result. If it's the former it confirms black, but if it's the latter and he could have visited without getting a result, then that's trouble. In a scum!black scenario as she can both rb and kill doc will have no way of confirming himself, as he can't heal invis.

Now i don't think this is likely, we still have to be wary of every possibility.

Well, the lim went through regardless, if it happens that doc is somehow town, then we'll finally have some reason to be playing this game. I'll get you next time Black!!

Of course, at this point asking the mod for confirmation won't work. Besides, i want to give black a sparring chance. She got dealt a horrible hand, and i really appreciate her play so far. I wouldn't want to ruin it further by asking the mod for confirmation on how the checker works, i believe the pretender flip ruined her game enough.

Now, then. Any questions you might have, ask away.

VOTE: Black

[Donempire]

This is also what i told bingle yesterday in neighbourhood chat verbatim. See if this makes sense to you.

"It still is autowin, i just win cooler if i get you to lim black before me.

How it's autowin is, since there are 5 people remaining now, if there is no nightkill, we just get 2 elims. Boom, like that. Of course, in this scenario since i die it's not desirable, as i believe you guys would fall to anarchy withput me. But i believe you can hold on for just one more day.

If there is a nightkill, its suddenly MYLO. Limming me here loses the game. However, this confirms that black is scum. She is troleblocker, so what else is she gonna do but rb me? A kill simply can't go through with scum!me, meaning if a kill happens it automatically confirms black as scum.

If there's 5 alive, i'll need you to vouch for me. Town will auto win there, but winning without dying will look better on my resume and i really need some credentials."

[Donempire]

Not really, you two are confirmed, so the lim has to be one of us either way. No investigative roles left either since you are the pretender, so all no limming today would do is give black another night to off whoever's less likely to vote me.

[Donempire]

It's clearly Don here. He was even casting shade on me before Doc even flipped. He was setting this moment up yesterday because he knew Doc would flip town

I suspected it of course. There were 3 nonconfirmed left, and then bingle came out saying you were cleared because invis' saw that apperance's action succeeded. Since this was the only clear that wasn't a confirmed clear, i checked the rolecard from the modpost, and the card only said the "action" will succeed. What is that action, i asked, and ever since i asked that black has been shading me, since she knows this is what the crux of my argument will be after drew flips. (So today)

As for me knowing doc would flip town, it would be more beneficial for me to push black yesterday and get her limmed, then get doc limmed today. As i said already, roleblocker ruins scum!me's game, as the moment i fail a kill the game is over with 2 lims for town remaining. What you're saying here, and you might not realize this, is i pushed a drew lim because i knew you would have an internet outage right after the flip for exactly 25 hours so i could kill invis in that timeframe, which is definitely something.

[Donempire]

Also, fwiw the mod has to be able to answer “how would this interaction resolve” for it to be an open. It’s not a thing that can be open to interpretation or a thing that the mod can’t answer.

You're not getting me. Since d1 when we limmed the pretender, and ever since the game turned into a mech winz, we were getting a dirty win. If we played properly, which would be to heal appearance n2, we would have won without giving black even a sparring chance. Now, if we want to win, we have to earn our salt. I have to convince you i'm correct, you and kowah has to make the right decision based purely on our persuasion skills. I wouldn't accept a victory where the mod just gives the answer.

[Donempire]

That's not what I'm saying at all. You had to question me being cleared because that was the only way you could win here. You had to push Drew over me yesterday because you know we're both town and Drew was the easiest way out yesterday. Had you started arguing that I'm not clear and pushed me it would've be obvious that you were trying to set yourself up for the literal only chance you could win this. Instead you played it correctly which was being up the doubt and played it cool, waiting for today to push it more heavily.

And you had to kill Invis last night. Invis was most definitely going to track you, and if you killed me then you would be tracked to me. Not to mention it wouldn't make sense for you to kill me since you have to keep me alive to win this scenario. You only got lucky that I wasn't around yesterday or Invis would be alive and you would've already gotten limmed

See, you're still talking about a scum!me scenario where i win by you not being able to access the site... How likely do you think such a scenario is? Moreover, i was the one leading the mech clear alongside bingle, why would i be throwing myself in the bus, especially after also spearheading the lim of my supposed ally?

[Donempire]

That scenario doesn't exist and I never said it did. You're not thinking clearly. Even if I was here to RB you, you would have come up with some elaborate theory about how I didn't send in a kill to frame you. I have no doubt you had either argument ready to go depending on what happened overnight

That's where you're wrong. In a 5p game, it doesn't matter what kind of argument scum!me puts. The game is in autowin after that. There was no scenario since the beginning where i could win as a non power role scum!don, as either the doc would stay alive, letting invis live, or town!black would, rbing me. Scum!me has no scenario where the day starts in a 4p mylo. We're in a freak scenario where there are 4 people, and that is because i rolled town neighbour.

[Donempire]

Thanks! I watch princess bride eight times a month to practice seeming townie. Good to see my efforts weren't in vain, otherwise i could've lost this scum game where i rolled scum.

[Donempire]

I mean I agree that you shouldn't have even got this far. You do a great job at seeming townie that's for sure. You've clearly thought this through and you're pushing the only angle you have here. I just have to hope Bingle and Kowah make the right play

There is no angle where scum!don wins this game. I already explained how every route leads to a 5p situation where he loses for certain. The only angle scum!black could win is this, where she gets a nightkill and blames that on not roleblocking me. Mystical forces indeed.

[Donempire]

We're circlejerking here.

5p autoloses the game for scum!me, but also for you.

So all your arguments about "you could've done this and thats why you're scum" or "why didn't i no kill to frame you" falls flat. And you know that, and it's such an obvious, matter of fact thing that i don't understand why you're still talking about this.

[Donempire]

It's understandable. It's impressive you got to mylo in the first place while getting the most unfavorable hand imaginable. So there's a silver lining to this game.

[Donempire]

And the same to you, if i were scum i would have just conceded day 2 after it was over mechanically. It's really impressive to get this far with the odds like that. I also think it's best to just wait for these two, since there's not a lot else to be said here.

[Donempire]

I was town, for what it's worth. Congratulations, black.

[Donempire]

That last comma looked aggressive as all hell, wasn't my intention!

[Donempire]

Speaking of which, I did lie about not being able to send in my role, obviously. I was here Saturday afternoon when Night hit. I thought the only way I could win was say I wasn't around to RB and then blame it on the 24 night deadline

I literally only voted Don because I wound up deciding I was going to believe this.

To be fair even i believed that for a moment.

[Donempire]

Well, that's that. This game was definitely an experience. Some closing thoughts then:

I thought the game got pretty stale after we elimmed pc, scum kills d1 already have a tendency to snowball in town's favor but especially in this setup the game is too easy to autowin, and i believe even if we had mislimmed it would be possible to win through mech alone. There are way too many investigative roles and other powerroles like roleblocker to make scumhunting have any real point, in my opinion. Once you get through the first day, analyze the first wagon, the game turns into a sort of a puzzle where you just fit the pieces together instead of a social deduction game. Maybe this is more fun for some like jingle, but i think it detracts a lot from the enjoyment of the game. If this game were a semi-open or an open, it would give scum more wiggle room to influence the game and make it less stale. In this game, black had no room to claim anything but roleblocker, and that locked her into slowly clearing everyone else. I believe had the game been an open with the same roles, she could have just claimed something else and been much more succesfull.

These are my thoughts on the game setup, for what it's worth i appreciate the modding by GIF, i just think this setup was not well thought out. Apologies bingle.

As for the individual performances, i think there's an obvious winner of the game. I think most of us didn't get a chance to really try this game for obvious reasons, but even with that in mind i believe scum would have won had this not been such a mech focused game. Black's bus was very well crafted, and for me after d2 she had been essentially confirmed, so barring some heavy slips i wouldn't have suspected her slot twice. Like i said i would have just conceded d2 because the game was unwinnable even with perfect play, but black deciding to bet on us not playing perfectly paid off, and that has to be appreciated at a base level. And the last day where she convinced kowah to not be able to register a result was the one part after d1 that the game had any semblance of seeming like an actual social deduction game. I think a win was deserved even with a mod error.

I told bingle in our PT that this kind of scenario was possible even with how loyal checkers worked, that this could have been a different iteration. Truthfully the game was winnable without resorting to asking the mod, because with a kill going throigh it came down to who you wanted to believe. We both had reasons to be suspected with neither of us clearly being scum, had there been no kills then that would confirm me but with a kill you had to be convinced of blacks innocence. Taking her claim at face value goes contrary to what mafia stands for, at least for me. I played with bingle before, and i know he's a great player, but he was too focused on mech play to play mafia this game.
Now it's fair to say that i was wrong, this iteration was the same, there just had been a mod error, and i get that. What i'm saying is that the game should have been played without asking the mod at all. That is why i understand kowah's reasoning more than bingle, as he was convinced by black's outage claim, and at it's core mafia is about convincing people, so his vote on me is much more justifiable than bingle's, who didn't bother reading our arguments.

Of course part of the blame is on me. It's true i wanted scum to have a sparring chance, but it doesn't change the fact i played suboptimally when i knew the best way to go forward, which was to direct the doc on appearence d2 and no lim d3. I'm not mad about how the game ended, i think it was more fun than if we just followed the plan and stayed afk for a few days, but if someone blamed me for losing the game then i could understand that.

That's about it. Well played to everyone! Hope we can play in another game that is more open to scumhunting.