Mini Normal 2305 | GAME OVER

[Elements]

bloop

[OopsieDaisy]

Roden is someone who I thought came in with a read that had no basis, but by providing his explanations and straight up bringing receipts, it's clear Roden cares a lot about defending his position and I'm seeing where his confidence on HEM is coming from.

Tell me: Do you think that my point against Roden has been addressed? Do you also think that scum!Roden would not care about defending his position?
In these games, was it Roden's ability to judge whether or not I have been scheming that made him believe I was scum/town?

I think you can piece Roden's answers together and see that your point has been addressed. You believe that Roden wouldn't be able to tell if you were pulling off a scheme before it went off because you'd have to be analysing people's posts at a very paranoia-filled level in order to find one of your schemes. Roden disagrees and believes he can read your scum playstyle well, including the scheming part, and has provided games where he has read you as scum correctly to back up his point.

Like there's just a fundamental disagreement there that I don't think is going to change, and continuously arguing over this point isn't going to get us anywhere. In fact I remember in one of the games Roden provided you held up a super hard 1v1 with another player to the point where the entire game warped around it, and in that very game you were scum!! (I forget which one but iirc it was with the person who's name started with A)

[humaneatingmonkey]

Roden disagrees and believes he can read your scum playstyle well, including the scheming part, and

has provided games where he has read you as scum correctly to back up his point.

No he hasn't. See my point:

Scum!HEM game where I started picking up on what he was doing a little too late.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89172&user_se ... B%5D=35782

Scum!HEM game where I caught what he was doing very early on.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89536&user_se ... B%5D=35782

And for good measure, town!HEM game where there was nothing to catch, but is a good showcase of our typical TvT interactions.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89510&user_se ... B%5D=35782

These are just links to my games. Literally the town game demonstrates that there's no significant difference between my games in which you can determine that "HEM is scheming" or "HEM isn't scheming". Both is identical and is not the reason why I got caught in PYP. I got caught in PYP because Aristeia, and not you, is well-versed at catching me because she neutralizes the fake emotions I give out when I am scum.

In the first, not only is he unable to catch me as scum, I was able to win.
In the second, it was other players that caught me as scum and I already had a well-established wagon by the time he jumped on it.
In the third, I was town who he helped eliminate Day 2 because he was paranoid against me.

None of these game demonstrate that it's my scheming that differentiates my scum and town game. If you read them, you would know that they're identical. In fact, in the second one, I was caught - by a user Aristeia, who has caught me consistently before - because of the incongruence of the emotions I have as town and as scum. She demonstrates - it's a cool case, you should look at it too.

The fact that he even crafted the narrative that "he can catch me scum" with these games should be evidence that

this dude is lying to everyone

.

[humaneatingmonkey]

In fact I remember in one of the games Roden provided you held up a super hard 1v1 with another player to the point where the entire game warped around it, and in that very game you were scum!! (I forget which one but iirc it was with the person who's name started with A)

Check the town game where I have done it as well. The third game. Warping a game around me in a 1v1 is kinda my MO, and what I try hard to emulate as scum (which - as I said - how Aristeia caught me)

[OopsieDaisy]

based on a miscommunication on what the word scheming means to different players in the game

Okay. Let's use Roden's own definition of scheming. Do you think he would be able to distinguish it?

If he was scheming if would be looking for multiple different angles to either manipulate you into voting how he wants, or framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you.

There is absolutely no way to distinguish this. No uninformed person with healthy paranoia can determine this. Unless Roden knows I'm town, there's no way he would be confident to claim that I have not been doing this.

Like truthfully I don't know whether Roden could distinguish this or not, because I'm not a mind reader, but it's most certainly what he's claiming and that's where the disagreement lies.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Well, if Roden is uninformed, he is also not a mind reader and thus he won't be able to make that read.

It's not a disagreement, it's proof that his read is bullshit.

[OopsieDaisy]

Well, if Roden is uninformed, he is also not a mind reader and thus he won't be able to make that read.

It's not a disagreement, it's proof that his read is bullshit.

Yes it is a disagreement lmao.

You think the read is bs, Roden is confident in the reasoning for the read. Do you think those stances are going to change by discussing it any further?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Would yours? I kinda get a feeling that you've been ignoring my counterpoints against Roden and not evaluating it fairly.

[Roden]

I am a very loud voice with a pushy playstyle and I am obviously crafty. It's not possible to confidently say that I am not scheming - even by Roden's definition. Especially when I have been confident enough to push someone.

If you want to read a town game, check out the town game Roden linked where I was eliminated at Day 2. It is not, in fact, kumabaya holding hands. It was murderous lust for the monkey.

HEM if you're town this loss is legit your fault. You backed off of nearly every push, OMGUS'd everyone who even slightly suspected you, lied about your potions, and decided to death tunnel me Day 1 even after I tried to give you a chance to prove that you're town and work together to elim a common scum read.

For example: Does this look like kumbaya holding hands to you?

Roden, do you mean to say that townreading me makes you scum because every time you were town - you scumread me?

Of course not! Be reasonable. That's not a valid expectation to have. Every game is unique and there will be a lot of factors.

The reason why I scumread you is different. It's because you bullshitted your reads on me.

I think you find me suspicious because I'm interacting with you differently and that's enough to ping you

Hmmmm........

[Roden]

For the record, I still don't think HEM is scum. If the game feels like it turned into me vs HEM, it's because this game has been otherwise uneventful

[Elements]

do you agree that one of you has to go today?

[clidd]

Reading soon.

[Takutai]

For the record, I still don't think HEM is scum. If the game feels like it turned into me vs HEM, it's because this game has been otherwise uneventful

do you agree that one of you has to go today?

I have to ask why you are asking this if it's already answered. There is insistence on locking things down from you. Should we all vote geraintm today?

[OopsieDaisy]

Would yours? I kinda get a feeling that you've been ignoring my counterpoints against Roden and not evaluating it fairly.

Yea I am ignoring them because I'll be honest, I haven't got the time or effort to go read through three full games to verify whether what you're telling me is real or not. I skimmed the ISOs that Roden provided and came to my conclusions through them, and those told me that you or Roden are likely scum this game because I saw more of this kind of interaction between you two in games 1 & 2 than game 3.

Is it possible I missed some of the things you mentioned because I was lightly skimming through ISOs? Absolutely. Does that mean I'm interested in slamming the brakes on my push? Not for now, I'll reassess later.

I'm gonna do my best to head off now and disengage, I'm happy with my contributions for today and want to see what effect they're going to have on the rest of the group.

[Elements]

I'm asking because Roden might feel differently

[Elements]

Should we all vote geraintm today?

No

[Takutai]

I feel like it though.

VOTE: geraintm

[Elements]

happy for you

[humaneatingmonkey]

Yea I am ignoring them because I'll be honest, I haven't got the time or effort to go read through three full games to verify whether what you're telling me is real or not.

I will appreciate it very much if you gave me a fair shot. Meta is often used to obfuscate exactly because it requires a lot of effort to verify, but it's all in there. Thank you.

[Elements]

Yea I am ignoring them because I'll be honest, I haven't got the time or effort to go read through three full games to verify whether what you're telling me is real or not.

I will appreciate it very much if you gave me a fair shot. Meta is often used to obfuscate exactly because it requires a lot of effort to verify, but it's all in there. Thank you.

this is why I don't give much creedance to meta reads unless i'm already familiar with said player

[clidd]

Ok, from what I understood of the situation, Roden expressed a read of dubious content and HEM constested the veracity, since it was antagonistic to the way HEM approached the game. The buzz term here is ''scheming''.

So back to post 291:

''HEM also feels very town. He's pretty straightforward and direct as either alignment, but I notice he likes to scheme a lot more as scum, and I haven't seen any of that so far. More so just poking and prodding to get people to post complete thoughts and follow ups''

I didn't pay much attention to this particular impression when it was first said, but reading with the knowledge that Roden is aware of scum!HEM and the way he operates in games, it doesn't really make sense that he would see HEM playing here as *very likely* town!HEM. So yes, one can understand that the questioning in that context is valid.

[clidd]

But the conversation that follows afterwards seems more like a cat and mouse clash than a debate about whether the read actually has AI merit.

From my pov, I don't think Roden is scum, with or without the above discussion. In fact, it would make more sense for scum!Roden to keep town!HEM as nullish, since he has the knowledge and history to know that breaking such kind of expectation would be to dig his own grave on town!HEM's perspective.

[clidd]

Now whether that makes HEM scum? it depends. If I consider this to be like a solid TvS, I would be more inclined to assume that Roden is the town side, even though he ''lost the argument''.

But it is worth mentioning that HEM's posts 502 and 505 gave me a good impression, in the sense that the way he addressed the scum!Clidd scenarios and made that little comparison of hubris Clidd to town!Clidd, reflected as congruent, as far as I can imagine, with his experience with me in previous years. So sure, it would make total sense for town!HEM to think in that way.

Scum!HEM, on the other hand, would have more motivation to unilaterally use the arrogance remark and disregard that a town!Clidd world is still on the table, using the tunnel I'm in as an example to support a potential shade.

[clidd]

Anyway.. Lots of if's, but my conclusion is that I have no interest in voting for either slot.

My wish was just to eliminate Karma and clear up my doubt, or to have some light on Geraint, so I could advance the gamestate.

But I guess that's not going to happen.

[Roden]

do you agree that one of you has to go today?

No. I think most if not all of the people who have been active and keeping up with the thread are townie. I think scum are within the people who are staying out of drama and laying low.