Weird Dreams Mafia Redux [Finished]

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

and I think town!ranger would understand her "puns" are perceived as signaling

Oh, certainly. I like to have fun. Confusing people is fun (within reason).

It's notably not the act of seeing perceived signaling which I find suspect.

It's the way the perceived signaling was approached by Kyoko I find suspect.

This just makes drew interesting cause it seems ranger is also not sure what is drew but her skills are somewhat directed on him?

Congratulations; you've goaded me into providing more information than I was going to give.

Let me be clear, then.

I am town.

As I am town, I've no ties to Doctor Drew at all.

I have no information on him whatsoever. He's not in my role PM in any way, shape, or form.

I have to form my own read on Doctor Drew.

Ironically, I actually think there's a reasonably high chance

Doctor Drew

is 3p. I see signs of both his scumplay and his townplay this game. I currently think the latter stronger than the former, yet it wouldn't surprise me to see any flip from Doctor Drew rn. Since the evidence for him not being scum's currently stronger for me, I've no interest in voting him atm.

Thanks for finally clarifying what matters.

Now for harder questions: Why didn't you try to sort drew and why did you force him in nightmare if you're uncertain of his alignment?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

also why would say he isnt scum or 3p and then say there is a high chance he is 3p.

I want you to separate "your read" and "your mech information" and tell us in clear language stuff like:

"My role means that drew cant be in group scum, he can be 3p or town based on mech"
"My read is he is probably town"

can you do that much?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

i don't understand why de70 is getting voted. ranger has a gut feeling and the rest of you are voting there because...why?
i don't think they've done anything scummy so would appreciate if someone would explain.

I don't get that wagon either. It seems to be appeared out of nowhere.

I also don't like rauth wagon that much.

the state of games makes me think maybe scum is between slots like merlyn that don't push game either way but exist

[Titus]

fail.

UNVOTE: Rautherdir

I find this unvote interesting right after I vote and the wagon state I saw on the next page.

I am starting to read reply from my mobile phone my last posts in one game. Great step forward.

[Titus]

Correct. Calling out perceived signaling doesn't affect my reads. The action's one usually from town.

Clarifying; the action's usually from town, yet doesn't affect my reads because scum also know the action's usually from town. I meant to specify this necessitates reviewing each case to determine if it's from town or from scum wanting towncred. For Kyoko Kirigiri, I believe the latter.

While I vehemently object to the argument of emulation as it looks like an excuse to deny meta, I feel this is town!Ranger doing it to herself.

[Titus]

Being honest, Doctor Drew is playing as he does when scum.

Were I unwilling to provide benefit of the doubt, he'd nearly top my scumreads.

I actually do believe him though; idk why. Gut I guess.

urghh

like... Ranger should be a lawyer. I don't think this is a traitor potential anymore, and this is just not town

UNVOTE:

if this is true I think this automatically make drew almost conf scum but I actually didn't see him do anything game-wise till this point beside calling ship turn there with a read so I need to do some iso dives when I'm done.

by lawyer do you mean the one that makes mafia show up as inno to cop?

I think it means common parlance.

KK, are you aware I am a lawyer?

[Titus]

In terms of Kirigiri, I like her entrance, and I strongly disagree that she's just taking "easy" stances. Semi-recently I spent like half a game trying to push a Traitor, after correctly realizing one existed and who it was, but no one would listen to me about it and it was a major contributing factor to us losing. I don't think that's the angle scum tries to take if they're going for easy, non-controversial pushes.

The issue with this; Kyoko herself doesn't think I'm a traitor.

Kyoko wasn't the first to notice the Drew puns.

There was grounds for scum to have mentioned it in the scum PT. Scum are usually watching for breadcrumbs more than town. Scum, looking for breadcrumbs, could've seen the same, or at least usesPython's comments, and believed it had merit. A scum-Kyoko, having access to the scum PT, would have access to her scumbuddies' speculations.

Kyoko Kirigiri's push on me appears like she already knew about the potential breadcrumbs in advance of having started the push.
Given she doesn't think I'm a traitor, yet given she thinks I'm worth pushing (suggesting not town), this is not a push which I can see from town.

I can but I don't want to do that flaw where I defend evil by mistake because I am sure/annoyed.

[usesPython]

I think it means common parlance.

KK, are you aware I am a lawyer?

there are many different variations/naming of the role but what I have in mind is closer to savior you linked. by lawyer I mean someone who wins if their client wins. (not neccessirly loosing if the target gets voted out). they don't know their client role but they don't care about town win. naturally they will do whatever they can to signal to their target they are with them, and will use their boost skills if they have any to help them.

basically the attidue I see from ranger here.

[Titus]

and for people who cant follow that line of thinking: in ranger mind, being questioned for signaling drew name in early game = being questioned for being responsible to force drew in nightmare
that is a conscious that equates those two jobs means it was her doing.

Actually, it's this:
Being questioned for signaling Drew's name = being rolefished;
Being questioned for being responsible for forcing Drew into the nightmare = being rolefished.

My response to one form of rolefishing is apt to a different form of rolefishing because both are rolefishing.

I believe that rolefishing occurred based on this hearsay and there's parts I haven't read. I don't know the context though. Many people view their rolefishing as not rolefishing. I get this all the time if I crumb. Only sometimes when I

forget to

.

[Titus]

and I think town!ranger would understand her "puns" are perceived as signaling

Oh, certainly. I like to have fun. Confusing people is fun (within reason).

It's notably not the act of seeing perceived signaling which I find suspect.

It's the way the perceived signaling was approached by Kyoko I find suspect.

This just makes drew interesting cause it seems ranger is also not sure what is drew but her skills are somewhat directed on him?

Congratulations; you've goaded me into providing more information than I was going to give.

Let me be clear, then.

I am town.

As I am town, I've no ties to Doctor Drew at all.

I have no information on him whatsoever. He's not in my role PM in any way, shape, or form.

I have to form my own read on Doctor Drew.

Ironically, I actually think there's a reasonably high chance

Doctor Drew

is 3p. I see signs of both his scumplay and his townplay this game. I currently think the latter stronger than the former, yet it wouldn't surprise me to see any flip from Doctor Drew rn. Since the evidence for him not being scum's currently stronger for me, I've no interest in voting him atm.

Your posting feels like it's trying to avoid giving townreads.

[Titus]

I thought I had worked it out, but it has now become apparent I was wrong. I haven't decided what that means about you yet.

Can someone explain this tiff or show me where? Thank you. Sorry

[Titus]

On the other hand that was a weird push to make, I don't think Ranger/Drew was a traitor interaction or should have been read as potentially being such, I'm fairly certain Ranger would have been a lot more subtle about it if that was the case. Reading them as Lawyer/Savior and then pushing them for that is... also odd. While Lawyer/Savior definitely isn't town, it also... isn't necessarily even helping scum if that was the case. And even if so, the proper play would have been to

vote or push drew

I believe if that was your read.

Precisely.

Wait lawyer/savior are traitors? Lmao. I meant I was a real life atty.

[Titus]

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub}, Rautherdir}
{Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

Would vote anyone from Flea below. {Merlyn, Kyoko Kirigiri, DragonEater70} are actually strong scumreads, rest are south of null by indeterminable amount.

ok I'm above sheep now so

just curious, what did I even do to get up there??

Who are you? New Enchant/Kitty?

[Titus]

Alright, so here's where I'm at.

I don't have any idea what's going on with Ranger at this point. But I stand by Town wouldn't have just tossed Drew in without any kind of discussion about it. Even Drew last game at least asked first.

The logical flaw I THOUGHT was being highlighted was assuming Town wouldn't have had extra info on Drew to make a decision that he needed to be added to the nightmare without revealing that information. This is apparently not the case though.

So I am doubling down on my assessment that this time around it's far more likely to have been from scum. That may or may not have been Ranger.

For one reason or another though, scum wanted Drew in the nightmare. Maybe it was a diversionary tactic, or maybe they were afraid a Nightmare would form without scum on it, or maybe they have a unique benefit to Drew specifically being on the nightmare.

Right now, the only person who really stood to be a beneficiary from the nightmare thing as a diversion would be Rauth, but even then it was a stale wagon and I don't think he's behaving like someone trying to deflect attention. So I'm willing to bank on scum having some other reason to submit Drew. And I want to deny them that.

This does mean we'll need seven non-Drew people to run the Nightmare, and I do not want Ranger among them right now. I'd propose adding in StD, if people are amenable. Out of those not already on the list, I think he smells pretty Town.

If I'm reading this, you feel Ranger is only evil with Rautherdir but the possibility of that is strong enough to keep Ranger out of the nightmar

[Titus]

I personally think it may have actually been to get a new wagon going... many of the people not already voting me at the time were either town reading me or not present when that happened, so further pushing on me was probably not going to especially effective. Plus... the people on me were pretty hard stuck that it

was

me, so without anyone else doing anything particularly scummy... controlling the narrative and the flow of where wagons go benefits scum.

Hmm. I should maybe reread what was going on before that announcement happened... there's definitely a reason why it happened when it happened... the question is if that reason is publicly visible or not...

I am interested in a new wagon for comparison sake.

[Titus]

i can go back to rauth, i mostly moved off him because i scumread drew more, but i don't really feel that way anymore, and uhhhhhhhh wagons good i guess?

VOTE: rautherdir

i don't think my brain is big enough to understand ranger vs. kirigiri.

Feels odd and fence shitty.

[Titus]

Trying to understand 814 and everything around it in context of the game.

So, like in 561 Ranger says he trusts the town!Drew coast and sheep strategy. This breaks with a Ranger who seems to have strong priors based on meta-reads of other players. Ranger even says as much in the post. That fact makes 561 weird in context of Ranger possibly putting Drew in the Nightmare. Since, if Ranger is town and being truthful about thinking Drew is town, why would there be so much discretion about what happened? Even then, why would Ranger pick Drew? At best, he's a nullread. The other case is that Ranger is scum, but then isn't Ranger going to push Drew way harder given Drew gets confirmed to run the nightmare literally a post earlier?

My head is super fucked here because I don't get what's going on. It's possible this is all a level but idk?

Townreads disagree extensively about logic. This appears to imply they cannot.

[Titus]

VOTE: Abnegation

I'm ok with this.

[Titus]

Yes haha. I like to make separate posts because it makes it easier to go back and reread them as different ideas.

Before anyone asks, I think multi quote is a step fot tomorrow

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so here's where I'm at.

I don't have any idea what's going on with Ranger at this point. But I stand by Town wouldn't have just tossed Drew in without any kind of discussion about it. Even Drew last game at least asked first.

The logical flaw I THOUGHT was being highlighted was assuming Town wouldn't have had extra info on Drew to make a decision that he needed to be added to the nightmare without revealing that information. This is apparently not the case though.

So I am doubling down on my assessment that this time around it's far more likely to have been from scum. That may or may not have been Ranger.

For one reason or another though, scum wanted Drew in the nightmare. Maybe it was a diversionary tactic, or maybe they were afraid a Nightmare would form without scum on it, or maybe they have a unique benefit to Drew specifically being on the nightmare.

Right now, the only person who really stood to be a beneficiary from the nightmare thing as a diversion would be Rauth, but even then it was a stale wagon and I don't think he's behaving like someone trying to deflect attention. So I'm willing to bank on scum having some other reason to submit Drew. And I want to deny them that.

This does mean we'll need seven non-Drew people to run the Nightmare, and I do not want Ranger among them right now. I'd propose adding in StD, if people are amenable. Out of those not already on the list, I think he smells pretty Town.

If I'm reading this, you feel Ranger is only evil with Rautherdir but the possibility of that is strong enough to keep Ranger out of the nightmar

Not necessarily. I think, regardless of Rautherdir, Ranger is most likely to be the one who put Drew into the Nightmare, and that due to the circumstances around it, the person who put Drew into the Nightmare is likely to be scum.

There exists enough room for error that I don't want to definitively say 100% that Ranger DID do it though, so I don't want to eliminate her without more evidence yet, but I don't want her in the Nightmare until I figure it out properly.

[Titus]

... Doesn't feel like town or scum would logically suggest 3p wouldn't it. That... would make sense.

If Kyoko thinks it's signalling then bring it to the logical conclusion (assume Drew is town for this):

• town!Kyoko doesn't know Drews alignment so it could be traitor signaling scum or 3p signaling their target
  
• scum!Kyoko knows Drew isn't scum so therefore it can't be traitor signaling scum -> must be 3p signaling their target

it's TMI

Thats a pure misrep of my thought process. And here I thought I was transparent as transparent could be. I never scum read ranger for the signaling. I think the signaling is "alarming" and I voted her for it. But my scum read on ranger is for ranger dropping me on her reads immediately after the way she did it.

Her signaling is definitely related to her forcing drew in nightmare, and after completely catching up it became less and less likely to be traiutor signaling but still far away from town way of doing it for any reasons.

I'm not caught up on last few pages still

Stopping here for breathing tiredness amd pain. Ttyl

[Ranger]

Suddenly I am overcome with the urge to trust Drew unconditionally

I actually am.

did you ever talk about that merlyn sr? if not, could you?

Sure. Merlyn is THE slot I'm talking about in exploiting Radical Rat. It doesn't display well in iso, yet most of her content is directly reflective of what RR's discussing at the time. Merlyn's given no content I've thought town, looks like scum, and has taken stances which I feel are taking advantage of town accusing town. Merlyn's contributions have been lackluster, and when the town's had its more lighthearted moments, Merlyn's contributions to them has felt forced. Both her hop onto Rauth as well as her hop off Rauth were suspect.

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Random Nurse}
{Titus}
{WhemeStar}
{Aureal}
{Merlyn}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{DragonEater70}

[usesPython]

UNVOTE:

[Ranger]

My head is super fucked here because I don't get what's going on. It's possible this is all a level but idk?

I can help solve the riddle;

My read on Doctor Drew is, and always has been, unrelated to his being confirmed to the nightmare. My read on Doctor Drew is, and always has been, unrelated to my decision to make Doctor Drew puns. My reads on all players are fluid. My read on Doctor Drew in particular has gone over the entire spectrum. I started with a gut-townread. I then doubted this, and saw signs he was playing to a scum meta. After I spotted signs he was town again, I thought him town. Now, most of my scumreads have had very telling reactions which imo paint Doctor Drew as likely town. Furthermore, his recent posting I actually

Drew

trust as town.

Doctor Drew being confirmed to the nightmare didn't factor into my reads. My read on him has fluctuated, but is exclusively off the content I've read.

[Ranger]

Not buying a lot of the logic related to traitor/lawyer signaling. Way more indicative ways to do it in a game with two voting mechanisms, imo?

Yes, that's one of the issues with Kyoko Kirigiri's focus there. She said it herself. It's blatant, too obvious even.


I've provided my answer; it was me having fun.

This answer is insufficient for her, yet the entire narrative she's selling has no logical conclusion making it worth pushing continuously.