Weird Dreams Mafia Redux [Finished]

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

why would scum me push on something someone else found randomly in such fashion?

You need to push something. Every push you've made this game has already been off the back of the preexisting work of others. I don't think your scumplay is bad. Your nothingness reads have been great at generating townreads on you. I simply think those nothingness reads aren't your townplay.

Now you can't claim people questioning it is "role fishing" and scummy.

I never did. Questioning it was fine. When Morning Tweet and usesPython both inquired, I didn't scumread them. Instead, I provided an answer sufficient to everyone. I felt like making the pun for fun. I already did ease people's minds. You, after I had done so, focused on it. You took it further and specifically demanded to know if it was role-related. As with Radical Rat's rolefishing, I denied yours.

I kinda don't care if you believe or not if that I didn't see others seeing the puns or not. I didn't see others saw them when I posted. I had a lot of internal fight before posting about them as I didn't wanna pursue a soft claim but it just didn't feel right and I went out on it.

I was not pushing anyone work when working on sorting your interaction with drew as I was doing my own catch up. I also wasn't "scum reading" you when I started it neccessirly. I just saw stuff that needed clarification and 10 pages later we're still on square one regarding them.

[Ranger]

While I vehemently object to the argument of emulation as it looks like an excuse to deny meta

Let me clarify.

Every* scum player has at least some passing awareness of their play as town.
Every* scum player has at least some passing effort to mimic their townplay.
Every* scum player still has clear town/scum metas, despite the above. Because,
Every* scum player's efforts to mimic their townplay is imperfect, for varying reasons.

*not actually every; this is me simplifying to make a point clearer

My belief in Kyoko Kirigiri being scum is not

despite

meta.
My belief in Kyoko Kirigiri being scum is in part

because

of meta.

My point is Kyoko Kirigiri's trying to mimic her towngame. As this is an accusation, the burden of proving it's an imitation and not the real thing does lie on me.

I've provided why I believe it's the imitation and not the real thing. The consensus takes, along with not following logic to its natural conclusion, and making a push which provides no benefit to the town. Kyoko Kirigiri's content is one gigantic effort to appear town, yet is giving nothing demonstrating actual town thought.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

also you keep saying role fishing.

I am role-fishing. Your role needs fishing. You cant drop all those stuff in the thread and not claim what they mean. I'm tired of us circling back to this as you make it all about that signaling/me pushing it when it was about your change of read on me cause of it. Its like you wanna keep rotating back to the angle that mostly suits you to push this narrative about what happened. when everyone with two eyes and reading comprehension can see the order of events on their own.

[Ranger]

Your posting feels like it's trying to avoid giving townreads.

I've townreads on nine of the players in this game and have described most of those townreads.

Mind clarifying how I've avoided giving townreads?

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}

All of these are town to me. I've been rather clear about this.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

While I vehemently object to the argument of emulation as it looks like an excuse to deny meta

Let me clarify.

Every* scum player has at least some passing awareness of their play as town.
Every* scum player has at least some passing effort to mimic their townplay.
Every* scum player still has clear town/scum metas, despite the above. Because,
Every* scum player's efforts to mimic their townplay is imperfect, for varying reasons.

*not actually every; this is me simplifying to make a point clearer

My belief in Kyoko Kirigiri being scum is not

despite

meta.
My belief in Kyoko Kirigiri being scum is in part

because

of meta.

My point is Kyoko Kirigiri's trying to mimic her towngame. As this is an accusation, the burden of proving it's an imitation and not the real thing does lie on me.

I've provided why I believe it's the imitation and not the real thing. The consensus takes, along with not following logic to its natural conclusion, and making a push which provides no benefit to the town. Kyoko Kirigiri's content is one gigantic effort to appear town, yet is giving nothing demonstrating actual town thought.

I don't have conclusions! It's day 1 and we're just building up the wagons/pressures to get stuff going. No one can have conclusions at this stage of game.

In which of my town games I ever had a conclusive read at this stage of game that you're saying this is a mimic of that? And how am I here with a conclusive read? even me saying I will 1v1 you is part of my try to make you talk about stuff that matters instead of just circling back to your random crap that you have been doing past 10 pages.

You said you scum read me but half hearted. You didn't drop me all the way down you kept me one square up to case me with these random shallow attacks that are all completely baseless and meaningless ignoring all my posts in responses to them, and yet you didn't vote me. not over dragon eater who is completely vanished from game at this time and no one ever posted a conclusive read about why is he even a wagon.

I think your read on me is fake.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Your posting feels like it's trying to avoid giving townreads.

I've townreads on nine of the players in this game and have described most of those townreads.

Mind clarifying how I've avoided giving townreads?

{usesPython}
{Radical Rat, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Doctor Drew}
{Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{sheepsaysmeep}

All of these are town to me. I've been rather clear about this.

exactly opposite of titus I think all you've given were town reads. I want to know about your scum reads. It feels a pile on null reads you're ok with jumping on each as thread sees fit and you call it scum hunting. I don't think you worked for earning any of your reads. That is easiest tier list making I ever saw from thread conscious to call town for day 1 and focus on everyone else - specially for ranger who all the do is making read tier lists. Why am not surprised about any of the town reads you have up there (well beside drew that you have extra weird interactions with)

wouldn't you call your own reads too safe and shallow

[Ranger]

I'm convinced, you're objectively nitpicking stuff from my push on you to make it sound bad

I've no need to make what's bad sound bad when it's already bad.

It's neat you bring up nitpicking though considering you've been doing that to me.

When I don't answer you, it's because I've already answered you previously. For instance, I've repeatedly explained my DragonEater read; I've repeatedly answered your Drew inquiry and demonstrated my read on him. I've repeatedly stated I'm not answering to rolefishing; I've repeatedly shared I've no information whatsoever on Doctor Drew. You've conveniently neglected to acknowledge them.
When you don't answer me, it's because I made a point which is inconvenient for your narrative.

If you had actually read the game, you wouldn't be continuously asking points I've already addressed. So clearly, either you've not read the game or you have and are leaving out the parts you don't want to deal with.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I'm convinced, you're objectively nitpicking stuff from my push on you to make it sound bad

I've no need to make what's bad sound bad when it's already bad.

It's neat you bring up nitpicking though considering you've been doing that to me.

When I don't answer you, it's because I've already answered you previously. For instance, I've repeatedly explained my DragonEater read; I've repeatedly answered your Drew inquiry and demonstrated my read on him. I've repeatedly stated I'm not answering to rolefishing; I've repeatedly shared I've no information whatsoever on Doctor Drew. You've conveniently neglected to acknowledge them.
When you don't answer me, it's because I made a point which is inconvenient for your narrative.

If you had actually read the game, you wouldn't be continuously asking points I've already addressed. So clearly, either you've not read the game or you have and are leaving out the parts you don't want to deal with.

There is nothing bad on my questions about your interactions with drew. Its 101 town play to ask questions when you feel something is off and something definitely is off.

You never ever in any instances explained the dragon eater read so that's a lie. Your answer to drew inquiry is complicated on purpose. How hard was it to LITTERALY WRITE IN CLEAR WORDS I don't have a role interacting with drew and I have no info on him mechanically and that everything I say is based on my reads. how hard is doing that that took you all these pages?

But my issue is I still cant believe its true. The way you played this day phase with heavy drew puns and then all that crap about yeah I wont say I have nothing to do with drew being in nightmare instead of just saying no, is just super weird coming from an uninofrmed town - or slot in any perspective. So I might be an idiot if no one else sees it but you're hiding something regarding drew and you have no right to call it anti town for me trying to fish that out. even if you're town and you dropped all that in game thread before lying your heart out about it. so yes I take full responsibility for this "role fishing" I want you to claim.

When did I not answer you?

[Ranger]

so how is that scum hunting?

Well considering the only thing on your list I actually am guilty of is not moving my vote: quite a lot.

I've provided reasons for all of my reads when asked, and sometimes even when not. My reads were ahead of group consensus and likely helped form it in the first place. I've repeatedly reached out to players to work with them, and have pushed why I believe key players are town/scum.

If you say otherwise, then others may judge the debate simply by viewing my iso.

I like my odds of them siding with me.

also there is absolutely no world you can say "yeah drew is town or has a high chance to be 3p" and "I have no mech relation to drew" in same day

What happened to "Ranger didn't scumhunt", Kyoko?

I can have Drew as a high chance to be town or at worst 3p despite lacking any mech on Drew by virtue of one simple thing; I sorted him. That I have Drew as likely town is evidence I've been scumhunting.

[Ranger]

can you just clearly write down "i have no role information about alignment of drew" " my own read on drew is this/that"
the way you post this makes it impossible to separate your read on him and what it seems to be sorting of an information.

That's an issue existing only in your narrative as I've been rather unambiguous.

I've no desire to provide any role information.
However, I did provide the information I have nothing in my role PM about Doctor Drew. He's not featured in any way shape or form.
I've a townread on him from a combination of seeing his town meta, believing those I've scumreads on spew him town, and gut.

This has always been the case, clear as day.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

It's not "Dragon's talking in this game like town!Dragon normally does, therefore Dragon's town", it's "town!Dragon sounds LAMIST as hell normally so tone-reading him as scum off of that is a bad read"

I'm not tonereading DragonEater.
I'm scumreading DragonEater because I got one of the strongest gut pings ever of "DragonEater is

not

town".
Lacking a reason's rather inconvenient as I'm aware it decreases the odds I'll be followed.

something something nuanced takes town vibes. i like this.

I understand this. I see the same thing.
I don't understand why I have such a strong gut scumread on DragonEater, yet it makes me not trust the nuanced take as town.

hmm. do you think there's anything behind your gut reads or is it truly just a feeling?

Not sure yet. I'll have a better sense of if my gut's good with time.

For now I trust the DragonEater scumread and have enough trust in Doctor Drew to not have him be a top scumread.

{usesPython, Abnegation}
{KatyKimFanclub}
{Rautherdir}
{Radical Rat}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Aureal, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy}
{biancospino, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{

Doctor Drew

, Save The Dragons}
{Flea The Magician}
{Merlyn}
{WhemeStar}
{Titus}

{DragonEater70}

I'm accusing you that these are fake. This gut read is fake. What I see is scum!ranger who just dropped a read on an easy slot. being inconsistent as hell with the drew mentions and keeping vote parked on an empty slot since around day start yet accusing others of having shallow reads.

I don't see a shred of scum hunting in your play. If it was you would be voting me in past 10 pages and asking me questions instead of dropping shallow accusations like "this is kyoko mimicking her town!game" or "I have a gut read I cant explain on dragon eater"

Quite simply,
Most of your reads and takes are very easy. You're making very easy takes. Perhaps the closest you have to a non-consensus take is DragonEater being town; even this is, per your alleged place in the thread, a consensus read because up until a few pages ago, DragonEater was seen widely as town.

Further more your attack on my initial reads calling them shallow was also example with my initial weak tr read/comment on dragon eater that was originally made by me saying that this looks like him being town. yet you even not talk about that take on its own so do you even care about your scumreads to evaluate them?

[Ranger]

I just saw stuff that needed clarification and 10 pages later we're still on square one regarding them.

Yeah--because the issue was one which is a meaningless distraction providing no useful information to the town.

And has been clearly so from the minute anyone would've bothered working through the hypotheticals to their logical conclusion.

Glad to see you're admitting I was correct though.

[Ranger]

You cant drop all those stuff in the thread and not claim what they mean.

Sure! I claimed they were because I wanted to have some fun. That's my claim to what they mean.

This was a sufficient answer to Morning Tweet and usesPython.

I wonder how those two differ from you?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I just saw stuff that needed clarification and 10 pages later we're still on square one regarding them.

Yeah--because the issue was one which is a meaningless distraction providing no useful information to the town.

And has been clearly so from the minute anyone would've bothered working through the hypotheticals to their logical conclusion.

Glad to see you're admitting I was correct though.

The discussion about how you were signaling drew is not meaningless or in any case a distraction. solving the mystery of that or not will probably be determinant for victory or defeat of town in later phases. that much I'm sure its important

what is distraction is your repeated going back to say I scum read you cause I found you signaling which is a misrep and then saying I'm role fishing or 3p hunting without considering any of my explanation posts regarding them - which shows to me you're nitpicking what can describe my push in a scummy way to be able to continue your narrative about your scum read on me

and yes you are guilty of not changing your vote and not having any worked out read. when I see your "original reads" that are "ahead of thread conscious" as you say (like that matters when evaluative town and scum) all I see are almost random votes you drop and then a bunch of fluff trying to keep those reads afloat. Thats how I see it. I'm not sure what conclusive read you are expecting me to have when your top scum read is pure gut that you cant exab explain it in your own words

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

You cant drop all those stuff in the thread and not claim what they mean.

Sure! I claimed they were because I wanted to have some fun. That's my claim to what they mean.

This was a sufficient answer to Morning Tweet and usesPython.

I wonder how those two differ from you?

Those two might not a mechanical nerd and a crazy setup designer and game mod like me who saw countless games from above perspective. Why didn't you just say you wont talk about it instead of saying they were random and just for fun - in repeatiavtive and continues manner when we saw later something weird happened for that same slot in same game phase.

Kyoko has a quote "Random chance... Now isn’t that a convenient explanation?"

You refusing to comment when questioned about that and then linking my questions about signaling to your answer regarding that event makes it so unlikely that you're telling the truth right now.

But then I was willing to let that go and work on other directions and just pursue you for day interaction and read reasons instead of the mech talks if you were not dead set to try and show the only reason I went after you was that signaling thing that you half ass (lied) with explanation and expect me to move on from

[Ranger]

I don't have conclusions! It's day 1 and we're just building up the wagons/pressures to get stuff going. No one can have conclusions at this stage of game.

I realize there may be a difference in definitions for 'conclusions' so let me specify.

There's a difference between 'conclusions' as in, developed reads,
And 'conclusions' as in, reading a post, thinking it through, and realizing what it means.

You having not done the former isn't the issue.

You having not done the latter is. When I say you haven't followed the thread to its logical conclusion, what I mean is you are asking a question towards me which, if you put time into reasoning it out, you would realize was fruitless. You would then do one of the following: {not ask the question at all, note the thing you were going to ask about maybe or maybe not including your followthrough thoughts, ask it before having finished and then promptly realized the conclusion and separately note it's no longer an issue because you figured it out on your own}.

Instead, you've repeatedly put time into doubling down on the question, despite how following the question to its logical conclusion would lead to realizing it was pointless.

There's a difference between not having formed a conclusion on a player you're sorting (this, I would not have issue with),
And not having concluded the line of questioning after realizing the flaws of the question and why it's a fruitless avenue to pursue (what you have done).

You didn't drop me all the way down you kept me one square up

Yeah, because my reason for scumreading DragonEater70 remains stronger than my reason for scumreading you.

You've done a good job putting on a display of bravado showing town conviction. It's enough to warrant some level of doubts, in "maybe she is actually town". I still believe it faked, enough for you to remain my second-strongest scumread.

[Ranger]

wouldn't you call your own reads too safe and shallow

Considering I've objective proof people copied my reads after I made them? Nah.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I don't have conclusions! It's day 1 and we're just building up the wagons/pressures to get stuff going. No one can have conclusions at this stage of game.

I realize there may be a difference in definitions for 'conclusions' so let me specify.

There's a difference between 'conclusions' as in, developed reads,
And 'conclusions' as in, reading a post, thinking it through, and realizing what it means.

You having not done the former isn't the issue.

You having not done the latter is. When I say you haven't followed the thread to its logical conclusion, what I mean is you are asking a question towards me which, if you put time into reasoning it out, you would realize was fruitless. You would then do one of the following: {not ask the question at all, note the thing you were going to ask about maybe or maybe not including your followthrough thoughts, ask it before having finished and then promptly realized the conclusion and separately note it's no longer an issue because you figured it out on your own}.

Instead, you've repeatedly put time into doubling down on the question, despite how following the question to its logical conclusion would lead to realizing it was pointless.

There's a difference between not having formed a conclusion on a player you're sorting (this, I would not have issue with),
And not having concluded the line of questioning after realizing the flaws of the question and why it's a fruitless avenue to pursue (what you have done).

You didn't drop me all the way down you kept me one square up

Yeah, because my reason for scumreading DragonEater70 remains stronger than my reason for scumreading you.

You've done a good job putting on a display of bravado showing town conviction. It's enough to warrant some level of doubts, in "maybe she is actually town". I still believe it faked, enough for you to remain my second-strongest scumread.

I'm 100% sure that my questions are not fruitless and I'm sure town ranger would know that too is the issue. Town play must be played by a code - furthering town wincondition which is finding scum (all accounts that can hurt town) and showing others you are doing exactly that. Softs can be from the town and most of time are - cause there is absoviously more scenarios for town to even attempt to soft. But when something is off in this scale and you cant see its full picture and the supposble slot that is responsible is refusing to comment or to even acknowledge that rest of game is not crazy to even lead them to wrong conclusions like assuming you were sorting mason or some thing, its pure anti town game play. Now anti town game play can be from town too which is why I NEVER in any context said you signaling will defeintly make you scum but I had to pursue it as its town duty to do so.

at this point I'm thinking maybe we just having a clash of personality on this specific part of this discussion with each other about why I questioned that signaling thing.

yet my scum read on you is about how your read on my slot is fake - IMO. and not the signaling thing on its own and I don't get why you seem to circle back to initial points about this if you're town instead of understanding where I'm putting down my feet and engaging me there.

[usesPython]

Those two might not a mechanical nerd and a crazy setup designer and game mod like me who saw countless games from above perspective.

Oh cool you're bringing us into this. If you wanna talk about this from a setup spec perspective then we're gonna be able to pull up 20x the games with masons in them compared to Traitor/Lawyer, especially when we can already assume the game's Cultiball from the last game + the rules post. None of us see a reason for there to be a Traitor in this setup from both a historic and a theoretical perspective assuming it's similar to the last Weird Dreams Mafia

-A

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

wouldn't you call your own reads too safe and shallow

Considering I've objective proof people copied my reads after I made them? Nah.

how is other sheeping your read make your read not shallow? what?

[Ranger]

You never ever in any instances explained the dragon eater read so that's a lie.

70, 557, 558.

How hard was it to LITTERALY WRITE IN CLEAR WORDS I don't have a role interacting with drew and I have no info on him mechanically and that everything I say is based on my reads.

Quite easy, actually.

How hard was it for you to read that when I'd been saying it from the getgo?

When did I not answer you?

It's getting late, this would require me to go through every post I've made and check in relation to yours. Suffice to say, there's examples such as how you ignored 961 among others. To compile a full list would likely take two hours or so. I want to sleep before then. Come Tuesday, I'd be happy to deliver. (Reminder; V/LA Sunday+Monday.)

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Those two might not a mechanical nerd and a crazy setup designer and game mod like me who saw countless games from above perspective.

Oh cool you're bringing us into this. If you wanna talk about this from a setup spec perspective then we're gonna be able to pull up 20x the games with masons in them compared to Traitor/Lawyer, especially when we can already assume the game's Cultiball from the last game + the rules post. None of us see a reason for there to be a Traitor in this setup from both a historic and a theoretical perspective assuming it's similar to the last Weird Dreams Mafia

-A

comparing a game to other games to figure out the setup is the most stupid approach one can do to do any kind of setup spec.

what I'm doing is reading this game and this game only and trying to understand the events in this game based on my knowledge about whatever is possible to happen which is a completely different and actually a practical approach.

regardless this was clearly not a mason soft and I still cant see how people saw that initially. again that might be cause I read the game in a different manner than you all with the sudden catch up and having everything in my mind all at once.

[usesPython]

wouldn't you call your own reads too safe and shallow

Considering I've objective proof people copied my reads after I made them? Nah.

how is other sheeping your read make your read not shallow? what?

Because either everyone sheeping is scum or there's Town that saw the reads and went "Yeah that's a good point, kill em"

-A

[usesPython]

or "Yeah that's a good point, townbin em"

-A

[usesPython]

Those two might not a mechanical nerd and a crazy setup designer and game mod like me who saw countless games from above perspective.

Oh cool you're bringing us into this. If you wanna talk about this from a setup spec perspective then we're gonna be able to pull up 20x the games with masons in them compared to Traitor/Lawyer, especially when we can already assume the game's Cultiball from the last game + the rules post. None of us see a reason for there to be a Traitor in this setup from both a historic and a theoretical perspective assuming it's similar to the last Weird Dreams Mafia

-A

comparing a game to other games to figure out the setup is the most stupid approach one can do to do any kind of setup spec.

what I'm doing is reading this game and this game only and trying to understand the events in this game based on my knowledge about whatever is possible to happen which is a completely different and actually a practical approach.

regardless this was clearly not a mason soft and I still cant see how people saw that initially. again that might be cause I read the game in a different manner than you all with the sudden catch up and having everything in my mind all at once.

lol ok. You've somehow dropped below Rauth for us, that's pretty impressive D1

-A