Open 104 - The New C9 - Game Over

[atakdog]

Sure, that's easy enough for you to say.

[atakdog]

It's been night for, what, a month? Everyone should be here.

[atakdog]

Since Scott isn't here, I'll help out:

If SH is seer, Siesta's a villager.

He's not really the seer though.

[atakdog]

Somebody tell me how to change my posts per page to 100.

[atakdog]

As far as I know, you can't.

Well, crap. Thanks anyway.

[atakdog]

atakdog is a power role

100% sure this is a lock

Because you read me so well.

Also... why doesn't the quote tag seem to work right?

[atakdog]

Somebody tell me how to change my posts per page to 100.

No spamming please.

Vote: StrangerCoug

It is my personal goal to get SC lynched D1 in all games that I'm in with him.

Wow, you're not going to like zhaorx very much.

[atakdog]

Not when I use it. I guess I'm special.

[atakdog]

Hi guys,

I feel like its best to just claim straight up and draw night kills as well as clearing myself and my mason.

Myself and oEJo are village masons.

Even if it's true, this an ungood claim. How are you drawing night kills by claiming a role wolves wouldn't need to kill early?

[atakdog]

not sure how you claiming mason will help draw night kills or clear yourself.

It almost Z and I are masons.

Gawd, what a thought.

[atakdog]

@Atakdog
Someone had this as well. He had turned the BBCode off. You should look at your profile to see if this is the case with you as well.

Vote Stef

Bless you. You're a villager. Or at least your're helpful. Not voting you today.

[atakdog]

What?

Its pretty standard strategy I thought.

Possibly. I think he's implying that, standard or not, it's pretty bad. If that's what he's implying, I'm agreeing.

[atakdog]

...It's clear that at least both of you have not studied what a forum based mafia is played like on this site. Also, what is the rush for anything? Don't you know that ONE game day on this forum can take up to a month and a half? Geez.

And you call these fact drama. Even more reason you should join a newbie game before joining a normal one. Also, try adopting the terms used on this site. I.e. it's not werewolf, it's mafia or scum.

Z and I (I believe you're talking about me) know plenty well how to play this game. He has never once thought I was vanilla village, but other than that he knows what he's doing; as for me -- well, you'll see.

In fact, we also know how games are played

on this site

. That we have chosen to play differently does not make us wrong.

I suspect I will refer often to "wolves" rather than "mafia". If this confuses you I apologize; it may be a hard habit to break.

[atakdog]

Atak, how come you started talking about the Seer?

Wait 'til you meet ScottHoward. He will claim seer, then unclaim it. I was just greasing the rails for him.

Or should I say "cop"?

[atakdog]

i'm trying to help everybody. if you guys didn't have me, you'd be done.

You are helping nobody by saying you cannot be lynched due to something that has absolutely no bearing here. This is not a Pokémon theme game. This is an open, "flavorless" game (not that darkdude won't spice the death scenes up). Stop making fluff posts and actually scumhunt.

Playing it completely straight: Y'all are operating on different levels here. I advise you, based on moderately extensive experience with Zhaorx, that you are not going to convert him to your way of playing. I doubt he'll convert you either, though that's a guess based on a less extensive set of facts.

[atakdog]

Zhaorx, you short-circuited these kids. Play nice.

It's early, but my preliminary read is this is not village Sun.

Since I've never seen wolf/scum sun, I am not pursuing this further just yet. I'm just suggesting that the Sun I know (and can never read, despite his always being village) would have played along, are watched from the sidelines, presumably chortling.

[atakdog]

Does this mean that you are the mason of OIIW?

Vote: omg_im_innocent_wtf

Amusing.

[atakdog]

omgiminnocentwtfisthisname is probably more likely a villager than a wolf if oejo is not a mason with him

Or it's a w/w attempt to clear oejo (albeit a pricey one).

[atakdog]

By the way, atak, on this site, I've been scum a few times, so if you want to see my wolf game, this is the place to look.

Why have you never linked to any such games when I've asked before?

Will you do so now that we're here, or will I have to go a-searchin' on my own? (Not right now, since I think day is going to last about three weeks, but, you know, some day.)

Also, re Z: yeah, "retarted" probably wasn't the best way to go about pointing out that the tactic in question was a bad idea regardless the role. I also hope the banhammer stays in hammerspace, but we'll see what mood he's in.

[atakdog]

i think this game setup is so favored for the village that wolves cannot afford to take risks like that.

Depends: randomized number of cops (from {0,1,2}) makes it pretty high variance.

[atakdog]

Greasing someone's rails is a scum tell.

What is greasing someone's rails?

Making something easier, setting up, facilitating.

It's not a mafiawolf phrase, it's a phrase.

[atakdog]

Sounds more to me like being mean to a skateboarder.

I would guess it dates to the Depression -- hobo slang, or something along those lines. Unfortunately, I doubt you can trust any references regarding that, even ostensibly authoritative ones: etymology of slang phrases is fraught with uncertainty and rife with unwarranted assumptions.

[Almost makes you wish I were talking about Pokemons, doesn't it?]

[atakdog]

scott howard would probably make a good skateboarder. he is an awesome car driver.

I used to be a semipro race driver (slicks and wings stuff), but I doubt I could skateboard to save my life.

[atakdog]

people who have to come up with some "purpose" for putting a vote on someone on Day 1 is a solid scum tell.

Disagree. That's a wolf tell on POG (and not all that solid -- you have to consider who's doing it), but seems to be the norm here, and therefore is probably a null tell in this context.

[atakdog]

anyway, there's a scum among siesta, mada, cougar. bank on it.

Why? You give no reasoning whatsoever why you think we're scum.

people who have to come up with some "purpose" for putting a vote on someone on Day 1 is a solid scum tell.

OK, this can go either way. Some of us do what are called "pressure votes", and those aren't scummy. Voting someone to get that person policy lynched is usually scummy, though. Could you clarify what you're trying to tell us?

QFInconsistency. You purport not to understand what he's doing, then discuss an almost identical phenomenon.

(Since you seem to love having things spelled out: how is it not obvious that he's putting pressure on the players he's calling scum?)

[atakdog]

To me, the scummy ones are the ones who point the finger first, especially on say their first post. That raises a red flag in my book.

You do realize that joke votes in the first post are standard for many players regardless of role, right?

[atakdog]

To me, the scummy ones are the ones who point the finger first, especially on say their first post. That raises a red flag in my book.

You do realize that joke votes in the first post are standard for many players regardless of role, right?

Of course. However, can you honestly say that all the votes that have been cast thus far are jokes? And I wasn't just talking about votes I was referring to the people who targeted someone from the get go.

No, I imagine the votes on Z are for real, albeit based on a misapprehension of his approach to the game. And the votes on OMG for his ridiculous claim are real. the rest? Bit early to tell, but we really can't attribute anything to "scumminess" (I'm much more comfortable with werewolf terminology, which I also find more interesting, but I do acknowledge the historical correctness of this lexicon) until we see how things shift.

[atakdog]

Yeah, we'll just see how it plays out I was just stating my opinion. lol And I would also assume the votes on OMG are real too.

They're real but misguided (and no, I am not going to explain why).

[atakdog]

Did you read those games yet?

I will probably do so over the weekend, which should be safe -- as you know, I rarely take a position, much less cast a vote, until near end of day, which in this game should be right around Christmas.

[atakdog]

I am up to post 74 so far.

vote stef

because voting for a claimed mason D1 with no counter claim/other evidence etc is incredibly anti town, and given he appears to be an experianced player the behaviour is wolfy, sorry don't know the correct adjective for these forums, is scummy right?

also - hai guyz

Yo, Hitch.

How does the new info that OMG's claim is disputed by the claimed mason change your assessment of stef's vote?

[atakdog]

Did you read those games yet?

Read 'em. Note exactly your typical wolf behavior, I certainly hope.

Also, the games were amusingly unamusing, but I guess I knew that was coming.

All: based on reading two of Sun's wolf games (one day in one, one day in a horrifically broken game in the other), I can say he's not a wolf here. Yet. But if we wagon him we can probably find out.

[atakdog]

I don't understand why he's been using irrelevant information to defend himself and, for all I care, pulling names out of a hat and calling the names he gets scum. I do not believe that he is pressure-voting SiestaGuru (see below). He's posting like he has reasons for suspecting us, but I'm having a hard time figuring them out. OK, so SiestaGuru and I make very forced posts in defending our votes on Day 1. Apparently, he knows our meta. Meta, however, is not an accurate indicator of alignment, and his #9 in isolation indicates that he wants us wagoned to a lynch.

For obvious reasons, no one is anywhere near being policy lynched right now.

(Since you seem to love having things spelled out: how is it not obvious that he's putting pressure on the players he's calling scum?)

Mada and SiestaGuru have one post apiece so far, both of their current votes are random, and zhaorx's case on me is crap if even existent.

This is nutty. Why in the world would you assume he "knows [your] meta"? He's pushing on you. It appears that doing so is a great way to get a reaction, from which it may be possible to read your role. That's not scummy, it's towny.

Also, wanting someone to be wagoned to a lynch, or at least acting that way, is sort of a prerequisite to getting a a useful reaction, I would think.

Maybe you're being overly defensive as wolfia. Maybe you're just being overly defensive. I don't know yet, though I'm leaning toward the former. But you can't reasonably deny that pushing on someone -- for good reasons, bad reasons, or no reasons at all -- is a way to put people outside their comfort zone and potentially elicit useful information.

[atakdog]

As for oEJo countering omg_im_innocent_wtf, I'm 99% sure it's now obvious that omg_im_innocent_wtf is scum, but I still want to scumhunt. I'm happy with voting OIIW if zhaorx can convince me he's not scum, but if we have a vigilante he or she needs to be the one to shoot OIIW in my opinion.

If this reflects your actual perceptions, you are playing a really bad game.

[atakdog]

I am glad to see that M1KE is a good guy.

[atakdog]

Stef is aggressive. If you can't live with his posts so far, leave this game now .
Trust me now, I know. Stef and I have had many quote wars .

Unvote vote omg_im_innocent_wtf

As that claim bothers me a lot right now. Why did you do it?

I don't think anyone was reacting to Stef's being aggressive.

[atakdog]

I am glad to see that M1KE is a good guy.

I agree that he's villagery so far but for you to clear him already seems wolfy to me.

You misunderstand, though I admit I left that door open. I am certainly not clearing him. But I think he's as likely to be town as anyone else who has posted.

[I was overstating it a little because I think I know what's coming, after his lock vote post. Just trying to derail that train before it gets chugging.]

[atakdog]

you came off REALLY bad in that 'retarted' conversation. I mean i dont think i've ver seen someone so mortally wounded by a single word before.

You sure about that Atak?

If I'm correct M1KE is Glossy Lips, so what makes GL 'good guy' looking as I don't see it?

Not sure, but sure enough for now. I have played with him a fair amount. This is his village game so far.

Meanwhile, I have no idea how the post you quoted supports the idea that I should not be calling him "good" -- he's stating what I think is a moderately obvious point, but discussion of which might lead us to a good lynch.

[atakdog]

This is nutty. Why in the world would you assume he "knows [your] meta"?

This is our first game together. The only way I can think of where he would know what he said about how I play is for him to read my games, and what he said is accurate.

I don't see where he said that (not that it's not there, but I looked and don't see it).

Also, wanting someone to be wagoned to a lynch, or at least acting that way, is sort of a prerequisite to getting a a useful reaction, I would think.

I've been known to take things very seriously.

You're completely missing the point -- if you and others didn't take it seriously, it wouldn't work. You can take things seriously without being on level one

all

the time.

As for oEJo countering omg_im_innocent_wtf, I'm 99% sure it's now obvious that omg_im_innocent_wtf is scum, but I still want to scumhunt. I'm happy with voting OIIW if zhaorx can convince me he's not scum, but if we have a vigilante he or she needs to be the one to shoot OIIW in my opinion.

If this reflects your actual perceptions, you are playing a really bad game.

So not voting confirmed scum so you can question suspected buddies in case there is a vig is playing a bad game; is this what I'm getting at?

Not at all -- that's something everyone (gawd, I hope) can understand has its advantages. What I'm getting at is that if you are "99% sure it's obvious" that omg is scum, then you are failing badly to consider all the other possibilities. Interestingly, I am getting the feeling, particularly after reading your wiki page, that it;'s just that you are a villager with striatjacketed perceptions, rather than wolfscum -- but I can go either way on that.[/i]

[atakdog]

^^^ Oops -- screwed up the tags. You get the point, I imagine.

[atakdog]

Hitch, see again why Stef voted OIIW.

Good to see that Glossy Lips.

FoS M1KEMMIEMIEMKEMIKE

I don't like it when players don't give any answers and from the looks of that post, you have nothing.

I'm gonna walk through this slowly and see if I can't explain myself a little.

Someone comes into the thread and claims to be a village mason.

A second player who claims to be an experianced player then votes for said player before his 'mason' had come into the thread to conirm/deny the claim.

Regardless of what reasons the second player gave, this vote is not consistent with an experianced villager.

It appears that many (most?) players here will snap-vote anyone who does something they perceive to be anti-town, and it appears Stef perceived a d1 mason claim to be anti-town even if true (and therefore, by extension, probably false -- which is hilariously bad reasoning but seem to be along the lines of the prevailing wisdom). Accordingly, you can't reasonably conclude from stef's vote on of an uncountered claimant that he's scummy -- there is another, in my opinion more likely possibility that I probably don't need to spell out any further.

[atakdog]

I am really worried by the Mason role claim and subsequent rebuttal by the supposed other Mason (??)

That is hugely anti Town for reasons Zhaorx somehow managed to get out inbetween talking alot of nonsense,

I would suggest we have no choice really today other than to lynch the apparently fake claimant

. There is precious little other info to work with on day one barring further slipups and if they do in fact turn out to be a Mason and not Scum perhaps they'll learn the lesson for next time and it gives us one 90summink% cleared Townie to work with, curse the downside is that it narrows the playing field for the Scum to hunt power roles from within but hey.

On the other hand, from you this is a gross wolf tell -- you should no

way

better than this.

Also, your tone is entirely unlike what I've seen in your last two games, and your approach to the first paragraph seems specifically designed to cater to the vagaries of this particular society. In other words: you're trying too hard. It ain't you. Or at least it ain't town you.

vote: matrix

[atakdog]

I've never played with matrix before, someone please tell me what level he thinks on and how good a villager he is.

Same for stef too I suppose, and zazier

Better than that. Check him out in Chuck.

[atakdog]

Faking roles is scummy

. oEJo said that he is not a mason with omg_im_innocent_wtf; therefore, the latter's saying otherwise is scummy. I don't know how OIIW could possibly be town, but perhaps I'm not taking something into account that I should be.

Re the highlighted part: open your mind just a bit. I'm sure you can come up with four different reasons for making that claim, three of which would make it a false claim and only one of which would be scummy.

[atakdog]

atak, I'd rather not discuss this any deeper with you until like D3 or D4 depending on what happens. k?

K. But read Chuck, or the game from two weeks ago -- this is not village Matrix. For example, look at how he dealt with Zhaorx's d1 antics in the latter game (patiently, for the most part) -- and here he thinks we have

no choice

but to lynch the countered claimant? No way.

Also, his double question mark strikes me as something he doesn't normally do, though I admit I haven't read for that.

Vote matrix with me; the rest of it we can leave alone.

[atakdog]

On the other hand, from you this is a gross wolf tell -- you should no

way

better than this.

Also, your tone is entirely unlike what I've seen in your last two games, and your approach to the first paragraph seems specifically designed to cater to the vagaries of this particular society. In other words: you're trying too hard. It ain't you. Or at least it ain't town you.

vote: matrix

Lets see - Scum atak knows tht I am good at scum hunting when I am on form- and will want to try and drum up a case against meout of nothing to get me out of the way.

Town atak is also good at scum hunting and isn't shy about jumping on things he perceives as scummy.

inconclusive. Please continue though - the type of case you build against me will go a long way to clearing you/incriminating you as approriate.

Oh and I do know better, and

am hardly likely to weigh in with such an obviously tonally scummy OP in this thread, especially after being semi conspicously absent for a while if I am in fact Mafia.

That would be horrendously dumb, and while I make bone headed plays as much as the next person, I'd like to thinkthat I wouldn't be that stupid in my first ever post in this game.

So you're saying you only make horrendously scummy posts as a towny?

I'm not sure I can find it, but I have a vague recollection of your taking arguments made on that basis (that's so wolfy he'd never do that as a wolf...) to task. Am I remembering right, or did that come from someone else?

[atakdog]

that would be fair to say.

hewitt, have you played here before?

No I haven't, so you can go ahead and throw the newbie stone but whatever I've played the general game before so I'm not completly ignorant to the gameplay but we'll see I'm definitely learning a lot about strategy reading these other posts but still not getting a clear idea on who's who yet.

Ahem, hewitt: look at Hitch's join date. About half the players in this game are new to this site. We know it, too.

[atakdog]

Oooh pushing the town in to lynching me based on pithy tone reads because the style I play as vilager on a n other site is a little different to one post I made in this thread is a little thin.

Not a tone read. (The double question mark struck me after the fact, but I give it pretty damn close to zero weight.) You referred to it in your previous post as being "tonally" scummy, too -- maybe you don't get what I'm saying.

It has little to do with tone, and much to do with substance. You are advocating basing a d1 on lynch on a decidedly superficial view of the events that have occurred, a view so superficial that I think it something that you could not possibly believe. I also think that, if you've read teh thread, you would think it reasoning that, however flawed, you could sell to this particular crowd.

So no, it's not tone, it's your advocacy of an anti-town tactic that might come to fruition if it gets some more momentum. Id' think you'd find my pursuit of you for that something other than "inconclusive".

[atakdog]

BTW, the double question mark thing on matrix was wrong. Sorry.
He's still mafia though.

[atakdog]

Faking roles is scummy

. oEJo said that he is not a mason with omg_im_innocent_wtf; therefore, the latter's saying otherwise is scummy. I don't know how OIIW could possibly be town, but perhaps I'm not taking something into account that I should be.

Re the highlighted part: open your mind just a bit. I'm sure you can come up with four different reasons for making that claim, three of which would make it a false claim and only one of which would be scummy.

1. Scum might be hoping that there's no mason group.
   
2. oEJo and omg_im_innocent_wtf might be trying to bus each other.
   
3. omg_im_innocent_wtf might have misread his role PM, but I don't see who he could be confusing with his mason partner.
   
4. omg_im_innocent_wtf might be trying to buddy up to oEJo.

Do I get a cookie?

No, no cookie. Try harder. But hitch is right that further in-thread discussion of that particular issue is unlikely to helpful.

[atakdog]

I did not call you stupid under any form. Calling some1 a newbie is not an insult.

You inferred I was a newbie.

Someone else inferred I was stupid.

Ive played longer than both of you. I think you are both out of line.

aaaaaaaaand this quality post as well.

appeal to experience.

You imply inone post you are exactly this or exactly that, when if fact we can deduce very little from the claim other than the fact that one of you/your supposed partner is lying.

Townies have no need to lie.

Matrix, on a fake claim:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/59/pu ... ost7257402 (it's post 3002, in case something gets messed up:

"Really I do get that a seer counter claim as a villager could be a good thing."

It was about a different type of claim in a different situation, yes, but it shows that matrix's game is

way

beyond this childishly simple "townies have no need to lie" crap.

[atakdog]

keep spinning Atak.


just keep spinning, just keep spinning.

Fabulous defense. Very impressive.

Of course, you've already come up with a defense: your post was so tonally scummy that you wouldn't do it as your first post on a new site if you weer scum (but I guess it's cool to do as town). And your defense re the content, which that we had no choice but to lynch OMG for his claim? To go find other reasons to lynch OMG, and not to address my contention that your initial reasoning was unlike you.

I may be wrong, having played only two or three games with you, but I don't think so.

[atakdog]

read deeper into that thread and you will note that I am very very anti fake claiming anything. One quote taken out of context = more to the gossamer illusion side of argument imo = Atak = Mafia than Town atak looking hard for solid reasons to vote to lynch someone.

In other news m1ke is likely a Mafia Goon.

Atak, let us set aside our squabble for the moment, whom else do you believe in this Town is acting Scummy?

Once I turn up Town tomorrow who will you be pushing for then?

I do see that you are anti-fake claim (and to anyone who doesn't want to read those threads: he is). It is more that you focused on this one without admitting of other possibilities. You don't always do that.

Who else is scummy? I have a hard time reading the locals, because their reactions reflect a different approach. Stef, for example, was ridiculously defensive, but it didn't feel like a necessarily scummy reaction.

M1KE is a villager imo. Again, may be wrong, but I'm comfortable with it for now.

Z's response to the fighting he started was villagery at first, but it was wolfscummy of him to slip away rather than keep drawing fire, as I expected him to do.

Sun linked to a couple of his wolf games. You should read the second one. It's too earlier to tell, but there's at least some indication he's scum here -- less carefree than village sun. (To be fair, it was over the top obvious in the games he linked to, and isn't here.)

[atakdog]

Sun, you said a couple weeks ago that if I'd seen your wolf games I wouldn't consider you unreadable. Now I have, and I know you're not -- and if you're making that statement, you know the difference, too.

Early in village games you are relaxed and make short, mostly less than serious posts; you knuckle down in the second half. In the games to which you linked you were serious in most of the posts. (You were also pretty obvious with your mistaken self-vote and subsequent backpedaling, but that was a one-time thing).

Far from conclusive. Just a lean atm.

[atakdog]

could everybody please focus on THIS game rather than on the entire history of every player? It's rather disturbing and no fun for the ones who haven't actually played with you before. I'm just saying this is probably the least fun game I have ever seen. Besides, it is very rude. And all this personal and offending stuff... seriously???

Wait a minute: it's "very rude" to use a person's playing history in different roles to attempt to deduce his role here? Disturbing that we might draw parallels? No fun when we give you the relevant links?

Fine. We'll play this game. Matrix made an argument that I get the impression he should know better than to make, and then went looking for backup when called on it; he's mafia. Sun seems slightly forced; he may be mafia. M1KE has adopted a style that seems villagery. Zhaorx's disappearance after he started fighting with people seems fairly scummy. Stef is hypersensitive, but I doubt it's a mafia tell. Hitch is following me closely enough that we ought to keep our eyes on him, but he's also posting solid reasoning; no read yet.

OMG made an odd, and now countered, claim, but we should give teh bad guys a chance to resolve it.

Fair?

[atakdog]

What mistaken self-vote? Are you fucking serious?

I'm not saying you actually made the alleged mistake (you pretty clearly did it on purpose, though everyone in the game misinterpreted it). I mean the subsequent conversation.

[atakdog]

Atak, tell me you're just trying to press my buttons or something.

Actually, I think pushing your buttons would be a very revealing exercise, but that wasn't my intent.

You subbed into the game and placed a vote on the person you had subbed for. Should I have referred to it differently?

[atakdog]

who'd i fight with?

Maybe the person of whom you asked, "Are you retarted?" I'd say that counts.

[atakdog]

atak - i'll be honest here and say that this is atakdog's scummier side that we have seen so far. obviously will resolve later

Zhaorx, how many times have you thought I was a villager? (I mean, when you were one too.)

[atakdog]

atak - i'll be honest here and say that this is atakdog's scummier side that we have seen so far. obviously will resolve later

Zhaorx, how many times have you thought I was a villager? (I mean, when you were one too.)

here's our last 3 games:
matrix's game: i thought u were scum, you were actually the detective
fnord's game: i thought u were scum, you were scum.
well named's game: i thought u were were scum, you were scum.

Right. And you could throw in a few others, too, and if my recollection is correct there hasn't been a single game in which town Zhaorx believed, correctly or incorrectly, that atak was town.

[atakdog]

atak,

we've only both been vanillager 1 game and you died day1. we've been wolves together twice. the rest of the games we were opposite factions.

Yes, I get that. I'm not saying you always misread me -- we don't know whether you do. I'm pointing out that you have no particular reason to believe you read me right.

[atakdog]

you "get the impression" that I mad a post that I wouldn't make as a Townie. but then state that I am Mafia 100% - no room for error.

...

all your reads thus far are "maybe" - but I am the only read that you have stated unequivocably. Thats odd.

The post you're quoting was written for someone who was whining about my using data from past games, so I elided it -- and it left only inconconclusive guesses. Funny, that.

OMG made an odd, and now countered, claim, but we should give teh bad guys a chance to resolve it.

Why?

Because there are explanations other than OMG=scum, some of which would put the scum in a position wherein they would want to resolve the claim themselves.

OMG is only getting NKed if he is a Townie AND if the Scum think there's a better than anyone else chance that he has a significant Town power role.

If he IS a significant power role thats not Scummy his original claim is just lol bad. Or at the very least very very risky, and an experienced player whom he claims to be is highly unlikely to make such a claim as a Power role, so all this pussyfooting around and hinting at but not stating that "we think he's the [insert preferred role here]" is pointless cos if you and I can see that it stands to reason that the Scum can as well, and they have several heads to think about this stuff at night, we have to play by ourselves bereft of such help.

People do things that are lol-bad as vanillagers, village power roles, and wolves. In fact, we know that the claim was awful if it's true (in light of the counter), and moderately awful if the two of them are both scum (because it's probably a bad tradeoff). And I agree that it's at least borderline awful, in this environment, as a non-mason power role, and it's really, really awful if he's vanilla town So we can pretty well conclude that it's awful, and therefore that we, who believe ourselves not to be awful, would not have done it as any role. that in turn compounds the difficulty for us of assessing his likely role, because we have trouble putting ourselves in his position.

[atakdog]

And here's the deal with previous games, I don't really give as much of a crap as apparently many other people in this game too about past games. Partially because I'm newer but mostly because it's the past. I would assume that whoever's mafia would get smarter each game and know how to play differently then past games. Where it gets tricky is could that be their strategy? To convince everyone that they wouldn't be dumb enough to play the same way twice? Or to point out the differences, I just don't know. To me, what's past is past and I'm going to focus on the right now.

If people could do what they want, perfectly, every time, making every adjustment that they thought they could make, then the game would devolve to one of pure statistics. But it doesn't, because people are, oddly enough, human. Humans adapt imperfectly; humans have individual personalities, which cause them to exhibit certain behaviors more or less consistently in similar situations. failure to use these data constitutes limitation of your analysis to an incomplete data set.

[atakdog]

This is good, but I'm an emotionless robot. All my decisions are made based on carefully chosen, adjustable parameters and randomized according to game theory.

Damn you.

All reads on Sun will hereby be determined by rand() function, until we have sufficient data simply to plug everything into Zhaorx's bandwagon calculator, which, regarding Sun, I will trust unquestioningly.

Ah, I love this game.

[atakdog]

Finally, I think we may be getting somewhere.

[atakdog]

btw
im teh seer
hewitt is not mafia
just kidding, im not teh seer

I already did this for you, and I think you got it wrong.

[atakdog]

For what it's worth, I just skimmed half a dozen OMG games, and did not find one in which he played like this.

He does get mislynched d1 and d2 a lot, it seems, but not this way.

[atakdog]

I'd quite like some time to interact with some of the quieter Townspeople here before my seemingly inevitable mislynch.

I don't think you're even in the lead.

[atakdog]

I'm out for a while, folks. Don't do anything silly, please. Notwithstanding OMG's weird contention to the contrary, information is good, so give everyone a chance to chime in about the whole thing, and about how mean and unsociable those POGgers are and all.

[atakdog]

I'd quite like some time to interact with some of the quieter Townspeople here before my seemingly inevitable mislynch.

I don't think you're even in the lead.

I make it me 6 zhaorx 3 , and uncomfortably close to getting early majoritied.

Missed that.

unvote

Recent developments should give people pause before they vote Matrix. His argument hasn't become any less wolfy and I stand by my read, but there is other information that bears consideration. No read is 100% (and certainly none of mine is.) Chill, listen to OMG, hear more from the other "mason".

[atakdog]

And listen to SH. We have no idea yet what he role he is, but to all who don't know him: assuming he's better than you are would be prudent.

OK, really out now.

[atakdog]

I propose we do nothing until the replacement players show up.

[atakdog]

I'm not going to respond to everything Fonz said, particularly because he's probably a villager and antagonizing him would be ungood for us. However:

- Yes, I have heard of "lynch all liars". I consider it an absurdly simplistic way to play werewolf, but I get that you and others here don't. The whole "policy lynch" meta, along with the idea that anyone who does something that doesn't facially help the town must therefore be scum, is something on which the two main contingents here are unlikely to agree, so while you're advocating a level one approach, understand that you will not be receiving unanimous support. I imagine you'll call that anti-town; have at it.

- No, I wasn't being sarcastic; it hadn't occurred to me that (1) it might take a long time to get replacements, and (2) that would upset anyone here -- the two seem inconsistent. But whatever, we're playing.

- For you to say Hitch needs to play a newbie game for not knowing what you mean by WIFOM, which a less than universal, and not particularly helpful even when spelled out, way of referring to the concept, suggests that you are not interested in seeing things from the perspective of someone who is unlike yourself. As mafia is a game that depends intimately on seeing things from others' hypothetical perspectives in order to deduce their motivations from their actions, I find this surprising.

[atakdog]

yeah replace me out or lynch me, im done wasting my time with these retards.

unvote: vote omg_im_innocent_wtf

Stay, please. We need you.

[atakdog]

fonz,

teach me how to win friends and influence ppl k?

One, he doesn't have to. Two, nobody likes fluff posts.

The second half of this is wrong. A number of people do.

And before you tell me how anti-town they are, consider that perhaps it might be possible to deduce roles from the fluff -- perhaps from how smoothly it flows, particularly when directed at or involving some players more than others -- don't simply dismiss it. For example, you might consider that the post by m1ke to fonz looks more likely to be scum --> town than scum --> scum (m1ke could certainly do the latter, but Bayesian inference suggests, albeit weakly, that the post is scummy). If that's true, then you

want

m1ke to make those posts, to out himself and perhaps his partners. Also, fonz's reaction may reveal something, even when m1ke is village (which I think he is).

Note: the post in question wasn't actually measurably scummy, I'm just making the argument to illustrate the point that it is not always good scumhunting to take things only at face value: facially anti-town behavior can help the town find scum.

[atakdog]

What's up!

I'm like 4 pages behind, I have to resolve a game I'm modding elsewhere a little later, and I'm playing poker right. So I probably won't say anything until tomorrow.

Except that if I'm the seer I got a villager peek. Just sayin'

You would do well to refer to cops, not seers, and scum and townies -- people are getting upset at us when we slip up.

As Sun said, and others no doubt will: fake investigation posts provide cover for actual cops, and thus make it easier for cops to be clear about investigations they have conducted without fear. In a game in which yu do not know whether there is a doc, claiming too early is anti-town... but in a town in which several people leave fake views, either disguised or blatantly obvious, the dynamic is changed, and cops can stay undercover longer.

I'd think y'all would see that as a good thing.

[atakdog]

Actually, it's not bad reasoning. If you're town, you have a town win condition. Claiming mason D1 hurts the town wc. Therefore, town should never do it, at least not deliberately. This leaves the possibility of a) the player did not realise it antitown b)

the player is doing it deliberately, and is therefore scum

(since, as we've said, town won't deliberately hurt their own WC). Town and scum are as likely to do it in manner a) whilst only scum will do b). Therefore, any antitown behaviour is a small scumtell at the very least. Of course, you have to weigh that against the likelihood he actually is a mason. And OMG's meta.

Logic breakdown: works only if a wolf claiming mason day one does not hurt wolves -- but on the most superficial level, it does (particularly when the mason partner can be expected to refute the claim). Therefore, it is not a scum tell in the simplest sense: if no rational L1 thinker would do it in any role, then we conclude either that he is not rational (which with omg may be right) or that he is not operating on level one -- and that's harder to assess.

In other words: what you said sounds nice, but rests on an unsound premise, namely that only scum would do something that, if done by town, would be anti-town. Both logic and, I strongly suspect, your own experience, suggest otherwise. The tradition of policy lynching may have clouded your judgment: it may be a good idea to lynch people who do anti-town things, but it's quite a leap from its being a good general policy to lynch them, to the behavior being a scum tell.

atakdog: Have you ever encountered lynch all liars? Is lying about roles as town common where you come from?

I answered the first question already, but should be clearer about the second one: Yes, where we come from it is quite normal for town players to lie, about their roles and other things. And it is not an acceptable answer simply to say that lying gets one lynched here, because there are enough players here who have grown up in a different culture, as it were, that simply policy lynching all liars will be likely to lose the game for the town -- and one of the rules of this site (yes, I checked) is that you are supposed to play to win the game.

[atakdog]

My bad, I didn't make myself very clear in that post upon rereading it. What I meant was I'm pretty sure out of everybody in this game right now that atakdog is town...which is like 2% sure. Which is about 1-2% higher than everybody else lol. I guess what I meant was right now, atakdog is clear in my books, I see him as the most pro-town out of everybody in the forum. Pretty high as well is The Fonz, yourself actually, and possibly zhaorx. Then again, I have no idea yet, it's way too early.

He was trying to warn you; you should listen. His perception, having played with me a lot, is that I could and would do and say exactly what I've done so far, as scum or town. He's pretty close to right -- as I said, you should listen.

What you can know with pretty high certainty is that Matrix and I are very rarely scum together here -- his "mistake" which as Z points out, may not even have been one -- is something he could easily have gotten away with had I not hammered on it. I am certainly not above busing scum, but I rarely do so day one and I'd be strongly disinclined to do it to an experienced partner, or in a game with unknown power roles.

At this point the wolfiest sounding player (keep in mind that I can really only read tone for players I have played with before) is Hitch -- Hitch is my best werewolf/mafia bud, but he's been over the top about following me, and then his attempt to hookup with the fonz concerned me as well. IMO he'd be a lousy lynch today, but y'all have to realize when reading us foreigners that often we sound more townie as scum than as town.

In other news, the development of the Matrix wagon is interesting: my initial argument was that a local would be expected to gun for omg while an experienced POGger would not, but now he;'s getting a lot more pressure from locals for his "anti-town" behavior. This is odd because his behavior started with a desire to lynch the lying claimant, which y'all wanted to do anyway. The vanilla town claim is far less harmful than (in general) the mason claim (particularly because it's trivially easy to make and fake), so it's notable that the wagon on him is overtaking that on omg.

Doesn't clear him, but if he turns up town it will be worth looking back at how the flow went.

[atakdog]

thats reasonable i guess,

but wrong in this case

This guy is a townie. 100% no risk. It's the first sentence. Also, he voted strangercoug right after a post that made me think hmm that's kind of wofly.

Also I refuse to stop using wofly for wolfy/mafialy/scummy/evil because it's awesome.

When in Rome. Also, history is not on your side: the original game was mafia, not werewolf, the latter of which was not very popular before the movie

Cry Wolf

.

I'm trying to adapt my lexicon; you ought to, too. Slipping is understandable; refusal is not cool. (I do agree that "wolf" and its derivatives are good terms; village=town, so no biggie; I'd be perfectly happy to say mafia, but I find the devolvement to "scum" awkward and not particularly aesthetic, but so it does.)

Your clearing of m1ke is too quick, though I agree with your conclusion.

[atakdog]

I'd be perfectly happy to say mafia, but I find the devolvement to "scum" awkward and not particularly aesthetic, but so it does.

Scum is the catch-all term for any anti-town faction, be that Mafia, werewolves, whatever (whether the serial killer counts or not varies, though).

That does make sense. Another difference between the sites is taht we more often run what we call "vanilla" games, in which the only roles are town, mafia, and cop (And numbers are known initially).

I can live with "scum"; would prefer "evil".

[atakdog]

I won't be attempting to read atakdog this game. I'll probably just kill him at night.

Congratulations, you just soft-claimed a killing role.

FoS: well-named

Think. Please.

You guys lynch people for saying things that no sane villager would say and mean -- but no sane wolf would say and mean them either. Doing the calculations you get a div zero error.

Please -- I'm trying to fit in somewhat. I'm not claiming anything. I'm trying to hear what you're saying. But if you want to win at mafia, werewolf, or whatever you choose to call it, you have to move beyond this kind of rigid, exploitable thinking.

[atakdog]

^^^ Sorry. "No sane townie" and "no sane scum". I apologize.

[atakdog]

We actually use logic on Day 1, ScottHoward.

Explain the logic behind your FOS of well named.

The only way for him to be town being truthful is for him to be a vigilante. Other than the obvious Mafia, we know an SK exists, but not a vig at this point.

Again...

think

! Are your scum here so stupid that they actually admit to having night kills, day 1, for real? Only if they do does your oh-so-scary finger of suspicion mean anything.

Your entire method of scumhunting seems to consist of waiting for people to admit to being scum. Gotta tell ya: this doesn't work so well with competent players.

[atakdog]

Again, I've been known to take a lot of things seriously. Each of us (defined as the MS regulars and the twoplustwo players) seem to think the other like to joke around a bit, though, so I may be in the wrong place to take every single post by the letter...

No, I don't believe, based on what I've seen so far, you joke at all.

I also think you are confusing two disparate concepts: taking things seriously, and taking statements literally. Several people here can tell you, for example, that I take this game in its various manifestations far more seriously than any normal person ever should. (i spend hours per day at a single game, and have trouble controlling my distaste for people who operate on mental cruise control, for example.) However, I do not take things literally and at face value all the time, because I am aware that people actually do things like, oh, I don't know, lie maybe, in a game whose fundamental premise is dishonesty.

You might work on cultivating a little of that yourself -- I'll bet it would help you win more of these games you take so seriously.

[atakdog]

I totally just leveled the hell out of the mafia

That's "WIFOM", boy. That's the only way we ever see it designated. What's wrong with you?

[atakdog]

Interesting. I feel we are both naturally wary of each other because we have both been mutually owned? me moreso than you admitedly.

My feelings were that I was leading the matrix thinking, not following? I mean the actual reasoning, but I then tok a back seat when 'we' actually settled on specific players that this thinking applied to, namely the matrix, because your playing experiance with him was infinately bigger than mine? Please re-read the buildup and see if you agree?

Also, please remember the last time I played I basically followed your vote as my sole contribution before subbing out because my workload was unmanagable, and I was town.

WRT your last paragraph, I think that leading and following are two completely different things in this regard. The poggers have lead the charge on the matrix.

I had some more to add, but my wife distracted me mid post, ugh..

All true re you and me. Re "our" thinking about matrix, you made more of my assertion that he plays, uh, differently than I expected, but it's consistent with your being town -- I'm just saying it struck me as being a bit off.

I don't think the POGgers are leading the matrix voting now -- it's fonz et al. Hard to tell because so few people are here yet.

[atakdog]

I agree with atak that Hitch is wolfy. I also think we can clear him if Hitch comes up wolf because he wouldn't bus a wolf on day 1 like that.

vote Hitch

lol, at which point was atak trying to 'bus' me? He said in the post you refer to that I would be an awful lynch.

Is reading a post that sais 'player x is an awful lynch' and then saying, 'yeagh, he wouldn't bus player x like that' sound like weak sauce to anyone else?

Strange because I kinda thought sun was not scummy, mainly due to the posting frequency player dependant tell, but whatever he is, this post is bad.

Yes, it's an odd misreading (or overstatement anyway), but if you think it through you realize it only makes sens for him to drop this hint if I'm also evil, and then only directly if you're evil too. (There's also probably the subconscious illogical chain: he asserts scumHitch --> townAtak, and hopes then think townHitch --> scumAtak, wrong though that happens to be.)

tl;dr: He gains little by semi-clearing me here, unless you think we're scum together.

[atakdog]

I'm not going to respond to everything Fonz said, particularly because he's probably a villager and antagonizing him would be ungood for us.

Please explain your thinking behind this comment.

Thinking:

1. You are probably town because (1) most people are town (just the numbers); (2) you posted a detailed read of the entire thread when you entered, something that scum certainly can do but that I think is more likely from a town person, and given that I don't know whether you do this in any role that raises my estimation of the probability that you're town; (3) in your analyses I didn't see any reasoning that looked scummy to me -- in other words, you didn't seem to be reaching for any of your conclusions (I disagreed with a lot of your reasoning but in each such case I think it comes from either different premises or a different general approach).

2. My response, had I written it all out, would have taken issue with more of your points, including some that are immaterial to scum hunting right now (and in some cases, ever). This would tend to clutter the thread, and would have a non-zero probability of antagonizing you.

3. Cluttering the thread is often anti-town; the main exception is when scum out themselves during the cluttering, and in this case that won't apply unless you're scum (which I doubt) and you out yourself in an argument with me (which, based on a very limited sample, also looks like it wouldn't happen).

4. A townie antagonizing another townie is often anti town, because it may provide a jumping-off point for a mislynch. It is worse when the townie has the potential to be influential, and I had the impression from your early posts that you would tend to be.

5. Even if I'm wrong about your being town, (4) still applies, albeit not quite as strongly because bad wagons that are started by townies are more dangerous than those started by scum.

[atakdog]

Btw, how would you guys say you normally deal with players who 'always play like this?'

Players vary a lot in this. We have a few who argue for policy lynches on such bases, but they're a distinct minority. Some of us get frustrated, but bear it. Some kind of ignore it, and some seem to thrive. In most cases the collective will judge each player's actions against his own history, in various roles; this means we lean on those who have played with people before, and we also frequently cite past games, along with links so others can go conduct the research for themselves.

It is inefficient, I will grant you, but one benefit is that it keeps the game complex, which some players (me included) view as a positive. I think it notable that,a s I mentioned earlier, half or so of our games have very simple, known structures: one cop, x mafia, y wolves, no doc, no vigilante, no serial killer, no nothin' else. That may contribute to the phenomenon. (When we play games with complex and/or unknown rule sets, fake claims are less common early, or such is my subjective impression.) The size of the community (smaller) also almost certainly does. I'm not sure what effect if any the timed nature of nearly all our games (meaning most lynches do not go to majority) has.

[atakdog]

Atak, you seem pretty confident that The Fonz is town. You do realize there are players on this site who can look pro-town as any role. I haven't seen his scum game, but I think you should give him more credit.

I assumed as much. It is a reasonable working assumption, though, and as I said above, the conditional probability goes up given that he has done things that scum invests the time to do less often than townies do, and that scum don't always do it as well.

[atakdog]

Vote count shows seven on omg, but it also lists him voting himself twice...

[atakdog]

I'm back. Stomach flu, or whatever it was, seems to have passed.

A variety of thoughts, then I'm out again for the day:

I guess it was inevitable that OMG got himself modkilled; SH may find himself next. The game will be poorer for it in terms of content, though I do wish my own contingent could dispense with the name calling and ranting, which clearly aren't appropriate here.

On day one, whether it last 20 minutes in a POG turbo or a month in a mafiascum epic, just isn't ever going to be high on content. (Cue Fonz telling me that if I were a good scum hunter it would be; cue me not caring much about his opinion, but nevertheless watching to see what actually comes of all this.) Hence, my own scumhunting at this stage is tone-based, which makes it nigh on worthless in a game composed half of people whom I know and half pf people whose approach to the game is sufficiently different that I can't read them. And this in turn means I'm not expecting to contribute much to raising the likelihood of nailing a scum today. Deal with it; the game is won at the end, not on day one.

I'm pleased that OMG turned up vanilla, as I expected -- I doubt those who were trying to get him lynched will be at all chagrined. (After all, what he did was so anti-town, it had to be a scum tell...! Pshaw.)

I'm not voting Wall-E. Not now, not for a while. Why? Because so far he's the only MSer, and maybe the only player, who seems to be making a genuine effort to bridge the divide between the two cultures. Even if he's mafia (which I have no reason to believe), this sufficiently pro-town that he should not be considered for lynching. (Others who seem to be trying to speak both languages: Fonz, but too often he either misses, or, I believe, ignores, critical differences -- see, e.g., his discussion of zhaorx's ending the joke vote period, and how reasonable [by MS standards] the resulting votes on him were, with no mention of the possibility -- which is true -- that zhaorx's reasons were fine by POG [which = 2p2] standards; Sun, but he needs to be more active before he can be cleared; and me, for a while, but my illness the past week clearly takes me out of that category, and I don't know exactly when I'll be able to get back into the flow of the game.)

I don't want to vote Matrix. I started the case against him, but since then I think he's acquitted himself fairly well; also, I understand the argument that the post I found scummy may really be characteristic of village matrix.

I see no reason to vote Hitch. He's playing exactly as I woudl expect him to play as a villager, including the efforts at wagon consolidation that Fonz doesn't like.

I get a sour taste in my mouth when I read TCS's stuff, but I don't know yet whether he's mafia or just trying to be difficult.

the only who bothers me most so far is Hewitt. He's really done nothing -- but that's the point. He's been in follower mode the entire game, and while that occurs moderately frequently in POG games I'm guessing it's rarer here, when people have more time to think things through for themselves. I don't profess to be able to read a MSer's tone, but if he were one of us I'd say he seems to be adopting several apparently influential players (presumably townies, if he's scum) and following them without actually adding anything for which he can be tried later. I don't like it.

The foregoing is based on having read just the last three pages recently; I have not reread what transpired before. If I've missed something huge, I'm sure it will get pointed out.

vote: Hewitt

[atakdog]

What a shocker, OMG was vanilla townie. I'm just oh so surprised. Anyways, scotthoward made a couple of really good points. And I also still have no idea who's a 2p2 player and who's a ms player...except scotthoward...that one's pretty obvious.

So why were we targeting OMG in the first place again? Besides the whole fake claim thing because a couple of people did that and it's more consistent with his gamestyle anyways so that's a crap reason.

His refusal to explain squat and his damn holier-than-thou attitude.

As opposed to any rational reason to believe that his behavior in the thread, given his history, made him more likely to be scum than rand().

[atakdog]

The fact that OMG is a vanilla townie gives us information.

Who was on his wagon?

oEJo, StrangerCoug, omg_im_innocent_wtf, zhaorx, Wall-E

For MSers this doesn't mean a lot, because he was an easy policy lynch, thought it's town points for anyone who was pursuing anyone else (i.e, matrix).

I forget (really -- I've been very sick, and what attention I had available was directed elsewhere) why zhaorx was on omg, but I can tell you that if he doesn't have a good explanation, it's pretty scummy from him, as he knows how omg plays, respects it, and is very much into FPS himself.

[atakdog]

Note: my list of those who seem to trying to get the sides cooperating was not meant to be comprehensive (for example, Hitch has been, also), but Wall-E still stands out in that regard.

[atakdog]

He was modkilled for personal abuse,

Dumbass

.

...

Essentially claimed village? You mean, indicated that they are town? Here's a newsflash for you,

shit-for-brain

s, everyone tries to indicate they are part of the town. NOT ONE MSer has indicated that they have a particular town role (well, except for OMG). So your argument is completely retarded.

...

Scott Howard is utterly full of shit

, and says nothing of value.

...

Then the likes of Scotthoward just started

personally abusing them, which is unacceptable

. If the POG guys had reacted reasonably, then we could have gotten things moving with a real discussion of expectations on both sites, and so on. But it didn't happen.

Basically, I feel like I'm bending over backwards to understand and accommodate the POGers

, whilst ScottHoward is making no effort to understand how mafia is played here. If you don't want to do that, then fuck off.

Sigh. Very good thing someone's bending over backwards.

[atakdog]

By having strong consolidated wagons, we force the scum to pick between them, not leave their vote stranded on someone that was never gonna fly, and in so doing give us their votes to analyse down the line.

Hitch, have you read any of the no-time-limit, majority lynch only POG games? My impression therefrom, which comports with my theoretical view, is that bandwagon consolidation is not really important in this format -- everyone has to make an obvious, visible choice as majority approaches. In fact, it may be beneficial to avoid prematures consolidation, as more data will be available down the road if more wagons gain and lose life.

[atakdog]

Strawman, atak. I did my damnedest, not to make it us vs them, and Scott just continued with the moronic arguments and personal abuse. WHICH MAKES ME FUCKING ENRAGED. Sorry if i can't be civil to a person who has demonstrated himself to not only be a bad mafia player but a truly awful human being.

Fonz: Scott is difficult, and he's being more difficult than usual. Your reaction is understandable... but it's also anti-town. As long as Scott is playing in this game (and he is), keeping dialog with him as civil as possible is best for the cause, whether he does his part or not. (Also, he has by no means demonstrated himself to be a bad player -- you're just not seeing yet, nor having an open mind to, what he can do. He is without question the most skilled of the POGgers now playing, and your failure to accept that this may be true and that behind the regrettable tirades is the ability, which can be teased out, to break the game open, is disappointing.)

Adults are civil even to those they see as children. Good mafia players are civil even to those they think are bad, if being so would help the cause. So if you could please stop being "FUCKING ENRAGED", the town would appreciate it.

-----------------
Scott: Cut it out. Play mafia. If you really want to demonstrate your superiority, break the game (or own as mafia), and

then

laugh about how pathetic you think MSers are. Meanwhile, chill with the name calling. At this point everyone knows how you feel; your insistence on saying it is making it difficult for people to hear the signal through the static.

[atakdog]

Clearly an attempt to garner town points here. It's in the vein of atakdog's post about how helpful I'm being in "bridging the gap." It looks like opportunistic buddying to me.

Bite me?

[atakdog]

The fact that OMG is a vanilla townie gives us information.

Who was on his wagon?

This post smells bad.

Yes, it does -- more than when it was made.

I responded with a list (which wasn't exactly hard to find), and pointed out that one person on it (zhaorx) was neither a MSer nor someone who had ever expressed a desire to "pollcy lynch" FPSers (in act, he's a notorious FPSer himself), and that he respects omg's game. CS has still not commented on any of it -- he just threw the question out there and left it.

[atakdog]

Atakdog, who's scum?

You to me fall into a similar category to Hitch: trying to be everyone's friend, sounding reasonable, and so on, being willing to talk about theory, but not willing to really push a wagon. The 'I haven't played with half of you before' excuse doesn't fly. Get to it.

I don't know whether zhaorx or CS is the better candidate, for the reasons I've stated. I keep waffling internally about matrix, and I really don't like Hewitt, again for the reasons specified.

I am slow to push wagons -- in a game thsi size I rarely care a lot about the first couple days, because I get more out of seeing what happened than making it happen. But, as nothing is happening, I'll try to push things along.

unvote Hewitt

vote: The Central Scrutinizer

[atakdog]

Well played, wolves, I guess -- just sitting back and letting the village do nothing was a pretty clearly winning strategy there, after Fonz and I were dead...

SH is right about Wall-E and The Fonz -- everyone here is cordially invited to play over at POG (twoplustwo) -- and no, this isn't sarcastic -- but I particularly think you two would fit in well and enjoy how our games tend to play. I'm guessing you won't, but I really hope you do.

Thanks to everyone who tolerated us, for tolerating us. And those of you who didn't... we'll let you go back to your safe little world now.

[atakdog]

Zhaorx has bailed on POG games, too -- I don't know what happened to him, but he's just about gone.

Of the people who were actively trying, only four were villagers (even by the most generous definition of "trying"), and two of those died night one. No, village did not have a chance after that.

Seriously, Fonz and Wall-E: Come play with us some time. You may not love it, but you might and you have little to lose. (You would have to adapt to the different schedule, our "average speed" games have six game days per week -- and then there are the turbos, with twenty minute rounds. Only occasionally do we run games with three game days per week, and never any slower than that.)

As I said earlier: the rest of you are invited, too -- everyone's welcome -- but I don't vouch for you enjoying the game play.