mystery box of silver 15: i'm killing hostages (negotiated)

[SirCakez]

Woah game happened

[Ranger]

Ranger, do you have any words to put to your read on me

Sure. I've paranoia about some of your posts being potentially scum (I can't cite today, can tomorrow), yet your posts still look town and I think it's more likely you're attempting to further the town wincon. It's not strongly enough to warrant locking you as town; it's enough where I do think you are.

[Ranger]

{Meuh}
{SirCakez, PookyTheMagicalBear, Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{DKKoba}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{Dannflor}
{Alisae}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{BlueSnakelet}
{iamveryhappy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}

P25. Still have stale reads; this is mostly recency bias.

[iamveryhappy]

stale? that's not stale
never would I do a readslist in such a high pl d1
I'd wait until like day 3 at least...

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Rereading stuff on phone starting from p13, glutening yourself fucking sucks holy shit I forgot this used to be an every-other-day thing for me, how the fuck did I survive

[Dannflor]

Koba what read do you have the most conviction in and why

I’ve read a lot of your posts and tbh have no idea where your convictions are

Pooky was a real read on you and now he’s tunneling you

Ranger is maybe town now but I’m not sure why you got to that conclusion

I’m town but “require further scrutiny”

What reads, if any, would you stake your life on right now

[BlueSnakelet]

This isn't an Ace Attorney game. We can't catch scum by just pointing out contradictions. In fact, scum creating a fake case on someone else would provably be more careful than a townie speaking their honest thoughts.

Koba picking an old game to analyze is at worst NAI.

Koba's reaction to being cornered and outnumbered was to get frustated and argue in circles, which is understandable. Ranger said at some point that Koba looks "argumentative, not frustrated". I disagree with this completely. Koba's side of the argument was heated from really early.

I was going to suspect Ranger, but her flaking out of her suspicion on Koba took me off guard. She was the main driving force of Koba's wagon, and I struggle to find a good reason why she would jump off. If a long time had passed since the start of the argument I could understand, but most of it happened overnight and most people weren't even on.

I doubt Koba and Ranger are scum together. The meta reason was too elaborated to be faked. And they walked out of the debate practically buddies, which is bad theater.

[BlueSnakelet]

Pooky, how do you feel about this exciting new development? About Ranger giving a positive read on Koba?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

NOTES FROM REREAD:

I'll be spoilering blocks and breaking out questions to particular people. Also things that aren't strictly part of catch-up.

Spoiler:

I don't know Koba so I have no idea if this means anything AI, but the outright prediction of contrarianism on ofrhz gives me scum vibes. It gets walked back which says if it's scum, it's theater, but it goes nowhere so I'm gonna call this "damn, why" town for now.

Hi to BlueSnakelet, I like the energy here for no real noticeable reason.

Alisae, please, if you would be so kind as to explain 327.

Okay, I rescind my town pass on Koba. 334. What a post. Buddy, this sucks. Even if you're town, this looks like trying to deflect pressure on ofrhz, and while I don't remember enough to be sure, I'm predicting that the tunnel-spiral comes after someone maintains pressure on ofrhz's slot. It's a null-read, not a scum read, but just. Look at this post, friend.

(Sidebar: I have thoughts about the whole "reading someone on the optimal-play" thing, because I also thought of that play out of the gate but wanted to sit on it in case someone said something extremely non-optimal. I'll explain after I catch up, if I remember.)

Spoiler:

HPE has the town vibes, and I think I found a legitimate tell. Hard to be sure, but vibes and personal history with similar people say thumbs-up on the tell.

I have no opinions on the Morning Tweet Ranger vote. Well. None that I'm sharing, at least.

I also have no opinions on Ranger, yet. I'm gonna say let that be a Wednesday sort.

Feel negative about Koba casting shade toward Doctor Drew, who otherwise is kind of nothing right now. It's not the point being made in 370, which I basically agree with, but the manner in which it's made when Drew has been consistently a lighthearted shitposting presence so far. Unnecessary levels of sarcastic disdain given the slot being spoken to. Like, Drew's 375 feels proportional to Koba's 370. I don't agree with it, but it's a proportional response.

Ranger's read lists precipitate Koba's slide, huh? The vibes aren't in your favor.

Fuuuuuck the glutening. Holy shit I feel like actual death.

Koba's 383 is illuminating. Bad faith? I see shitposting, mostly, up until 370 sours the vibes. Pooky could be construed as more, but eh, he's not hard-pushing, he's just throwing dirt in typical Pooky fashion. The points on "interactivity" are ??? I don't get it. People are asking questions and getting answers, I don't see what's wanted here.

Koba loses the plot in 396, exactly precipitated by what I predicted: sustained pressure on ofrhz. Koba, tell me: are you at all aware of what this looks like from the outside? Are you really wanting to go down with this garbage ship that even you said you wouldn't miss? Why die on this hill instead of any other? Your 402 was previously explained by Ranger (she's about to be busy) and confirmed by none other than you personally your own self as in line with her meta for those who respect meta.

Spoiler:

416 is wrong, gut-tells are a thing. I've made reads that were entirely vibe based many times, and some of them were among my best reads. More reason to want to burn this slot.

Something about Pooky/Koba vibes wrong compared to Koba/Ranger to me, and past experience says that that's probably TvT -- Pooky TvT shitfights just always feel SvT to me. Reframing off of that, Koba/Ranger is probably TvT. Pages to go, but I'm looking more around the edges now, at players weighing in on Koba/Ranger/Pooky, and players who are getting little sucker punches in.

No, not you, Doctor Drew, you're doing the popcorn thing that gets you even odds of being dragged in personally.

No, not you, Skygazer, that's an attempt at a defusing statement if anything.

iamveryhappy's doing his own weird little thing there, totally disconnected, so not him either.

No.

YOU


ofrhz, tell me, why do you look like scum trying to distract off of Koba? If I wasn't following hard-earned experience on Pooky, I'd say that Koba was the same for you. Could also be my experience doesn't apply with Koba, though. Why do you two look like scumbuddies? Why is Koba using some of your worst posts as evidence of a town mindset? I'm already voting you but I'd do it again if I could.

HPE reading my mind across space-time. I like you. Actually, I tend to get along with dolls in general, but this says I can probably use your brain as a co-processor, which isn't super common (I find on average something like ~0.6 players per game I can do that with, maximum ever was 2 in one game). This doesn't mean you're getting a town-pass from me, just that I'm able to calibrate reality from your posting. Stick around for awhile.

Spoiler:

Okay, it's not just me and Pooky the mental enigma, that's a player whose brain is parsing for me too. Alright, dropping my Koba townpass: Koba/ofrhz smells like 2/5 to me.

493 is crap. Typing thoughts out takes much more time than re-ordering a reads list. Have you ever had to tabulate data? If you have to make a note, it fucks the flow. How long have I been typing my thoughts? Two hours, ish, as of typing this. How many pages have I gotten through? Seven. Pre-Post Edit: it's been 5 hours, and I'm finally done.

Pooky making a clear, well-stated point? Heaven forbid! (I'm joking buddy.) Pooky, smell blood in the water?

Doctor Drew, if you think Ranger/Koba is theater, I'm concerned for your vision. There's no contrivance there, the emotions are very real.

HPE ahead of me once the fuck again. Damn it. I'm going to have to give you a townread, huh? Damn it all.

Okay 505 about saves it. Ranger/Koba isn't SvS, but SvT is a big possibility. Thin ice, Doctor.

506 catches something I nearly missed despite scumreading Koba -- typical Pooky, all ice cream, shitposts and giggles until the thumbscrews and tongs come out. Finding this actually convincing now, rather than a corner I'm driven to by my own logic.

Re: 513 because I'm predicting a lot of banging of pots and pans from the 2 scumreads, Ranger already said that she's about to be extremely busy, so like... and there's 514, right on time.

515! Sincerely like HPE. Let's fucking go.

547 is gaaaaaarbage. 3/5, this looks like a sacrificial play to draw town attention and destroy focus. Scumbucket, xyzzy, get the hell out of here.

556 is spiraling out in the opposite direction from 547 -- current push is momentumless and garnering suspicion, buddy puts a late vote on you with a really wild interpretation behind it, hard-shift to a different player who's been involved on the sidelines. Between shit-reasoning for latest on Koba's wagon, and Koba switching to a different target with also poor reasoning, voting in their own wagon, it's a patently artificial and blatantly coordinated attempt to make the wagon look like trash. Wagon stalled at 6/10 before this says scum to me. Burn Koba.

567 is ehhh. Early Koba was frustrated. Coming back from absence, those posts look legit frustrated rather than just fighty. The past 3+ pages have been ALL teeth and nails and NO seething, though.

574 and 556 do not make sense in the order they're supposed to have occurred in. Or in the order of posting, either.

Aaaaand there's 576. The trajectory here is flail. Like, literally it's just chaotically up and down and all around. There's not an actual trajectory, there's not even a set of fixed points aside from "players pressuring Koba" -- not even Koba themself is a fixed point, because of shit like 547 and the back half of ofhrz's ISO.

Agreeing with Ranger's vibe that Koba's actually trying in the later posts, but I think Ranger gave into her recency bias there, not realizing just now much time was spent with a very unpleasant, scummy Koba, or the other ugliness from e.g. xyzzy, ofrhz, etc. that implicates Koba. I think she should reconsider that Koba could be scum that found their groove through flail, which is, of course, the entire point of flail (whether town or scum).

Fuck, Meuh's catch up goes from "who is this slot, I don't know this slot" to "oh, the fresh clean scent of town".

I might have Ranger's brain parseable too now, though not on the same level as HPE's.

Alright, all done. Let's collect a readslist.

Spoiler: Reads

Koba, xyzzy and ofrhz are all mega-scum to me. Burn these slots. Wagon stall point, the peanut gallery movements around Koba/Ranger, etc all suggest Koba-scum to me. I've had very high success rates reading off of wagon stall-points, 100% to date, so just burn it down. xyzzy is openwolfing so hard I think that might be a green name doing the Pooky/Skygazer "let me go out on the grand slam of G-d" thing except for real rather than for jokes, because WOW. ofrhz is more ratfucky about it, splitting Ranger's focus during the Koba/Ranger 1v1 and generally coming across like a sideways defense/defense by dissolution of Koba.

Doctor Drew, thin ice. The vibes are rancid 'round you, friend. You can do better, I'm sure.

Morning Tweet, RCEnigma, sheepsaysmeep are all nothing. I don't have any opinions here. Content, please.

iamveryhappy, welcome to Nulltown. By which I mean you're just pure null, I understand how that can be confusing. Could we get you engaging with anything meaningful instead of shitposting your way to a 2-3 meatball in the zone? Thanks. By the way, my nulls that are for low signal-noise ratio dip towards scum rapidly over time.

Alisae is also a dweller in Nulltown. One substantive action that could go either way -- going to see if the catchup fixes that.

Cakez: nulltown, but not Nulltown, you know? Slightly towny behavior after a dogshit intro, most posting after the first two is somewhat AI and leans town to Enu, whose judgement I temporarily trust here because the rest of us are just shrugging. One less slot to immediately focus on.

Skygazer is positive, but only barely. I mostly get it from 236, which is the first and only post of real, AI substance in the ISO, and which I agree with.

BlueSnakelet is aware, engaged, and even though I disagree with the Koba read, the reasoning involved at least makes some amount of sense.

The Bulge is doing the slide-off-the-brain thing still. Nonentity, in a particular way I have positive associations with.

Dannflor: I like this. Solid lines of questioning, if thin on the amount of play. Responsive without being reactive, pleasant town block material.

Hey, Pooky! Get this! I'm townreading you!

Ranger: town as hell. The 1v1 and its resolution let me parse past the upfront "this is an enigma, we may never know the truth" and get an actual opinion of alignment on her. It also feels like it gave me a window into her mind, though more play is needed to confirm/deny that.

HPE and Meuh are mega-town. I like these slots. They have my thoughts in them, and that's nice. Also, the headspace team likes them, including Ad (whose spidey-senses apparently detect scum I'm being hoodwinked by like a D&D cleric), and I can parse their reasoning without making decisions of interpretation. It's like reading technical writing: clearly spelled out, unambiguous. Since they're not doing like me and narrating their thought processes blow-for-blow, we have to be thinking the same way.

I'm supposed to be done megaposting! I'm supposed to be out! Help! Help!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Pooky, how do you feel about this exciting new development? About Ranger giving a positive read on Koba?

doesnt change kobas role pm being mafia lol

[DkKoba]

breaking my silence to say that
A) pooky is blatantly openwolfing and idk how pooky gets away with this dumb playstyle as scum everytime and people just lap it up like he put you under a spell
B) the posts orf made were not scummy to me at all because they displayed an independent thought process and not an agenda
C) most of us should be aware that disagreement =/= the person is scum
D) I only had to argue in circles because I kept trying to quash the same tired points that weren't even true
E) to Dann, I'm most sure of: pooky, xyzzy, and alisae being scum, and mush, orf, you, and skygazer being town. Skygazer being the most obvious of the bunch. Ranger to a lesser degree, there was no need for her to change her mind there as scum
F) hey people, I'm not the only slot in the game And it's ok to make strong reads elsewhere instead of going in circles about me. The bar for play is under the ground right now and that's super pro scum.
G) pooky can substantiate how I'm scum when he does catch me as town and accurately describe things. Here he is just repeating the same thing over and over.
H) to meuh: hey consider maybe, JUST maybe that the fact there are 7 votes on me for flimsy reasons I might just find that incredibly upsetting to interact with from either alignment, and your "scum caught for the wrong reasons" take is lazy


I think that people want me to be scum to feel right more than they actually are trying to sort me correctly and idk how to break thru this mindset in games

[DkKoba]

Gonna appeal to cakes directly, you let this kind of pooky get away with this kind of play in pokemon mafia and I sure hope you aren't again.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Isn't Pooky's scum game.

--Ad.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

We miscounted time. Three hours for Curse's big post.

--Ad.

[DkKoba]

Isn't Pooky's scum game.

--Ad.

Show me games where you find pooky d1 as either alignment and maybe I'll consider your unsubstantiated POV

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Me? Never actually played with Pooky. Observer only.
Curse? Mistook Pooky for scum in Death Curse. Learned its lesson.
This? Same exact game as Death Curse. Step by step.

--Ad.

[Ranger]

We've read Mush's post.
We can’t properly respond.
We’ll say this for now:
I actually came out from Mush's catchup with a stronger townread on Koba. The inconsistencies you pointed out are more in line with a typical town mindset.

However, at first available point, We’ll try to review the events, and consider the chances of "DKKoba found their element as scum". Right]i]now[/i], I don’t buy it.

I'd still vote Koba, despite my townread, because I believe their flip holds great value. I'd expect a town flip though, so my

preference

is one of {xyzzy, ofhrz}, who you agree are 'also' scum/scum regardless.

If you want more insight into our head, quick rundown. Most of our posts are written primarily by Miranda. Some, by Hera. We’ve an unnamed motherly facet involved as well, and Talia our flirting facet is trying to return too.

Aside from Talia and maybe the motherly one, none of us played in 2016.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Mm. You have a reputation. Don't care much for meta. But, well. Some folks are too consistent. Have to pay attention.

Koba's not scum for inconsistencies. Inconsistencies, NAI. Gravy for whatever meat. Koba's scum for wagon-stoppage. Curse says scum wagons build fast, halt at ~2/3s. Koba's scum for other players' ratfuckery. Curse caught good scum off of that before. Koba's scum for hard defense of a slot they don't like, no one else likes either. Check 396-398.

--Ad.

[DkKoba]

Me? Never actually played with Pooky. Observer only.
Curse? Mistook Pooky for scum in Death Curse. Learned its lesson.
This? Same exact game as Death Curse. Step by step.

--Ad.

Then don't try to pretend you can accurately read him like that and see that the quality of his play is poor and at least he should be pushed to a higher standard of play instead of whatever this is.

You should be expecting every player to meet at least 25% of the posting quality you have shown
Skygazer, Ranger, myself, Dann, idk prob Noone else is posting at a level conducive to solving eachother . Some are getting close, like meuh, orf, etc. But pooky is just barely above slots like rce based on the repetitive nature of his play and shallow takes.


Imma is actually sit down and try to get a handle on the less present slots but , please excuse m mild humility, I think I realized I have sort of approached the game differently from how I usually do as town in my focus - to explain why, I didn't have the wherewithal to really start pushing at low posters and theres a high chunk of them compared to my other games.

I'm not a slot that should be killed first anyways as I tend to gain accuracy over time(sometimes I GOAT d1, sometimes I have LLD like games where I am a bozo d1 and sometimes d2 but then turn around and find the whole team with reevaluations)

Like I don't know how to make people townread me when I'm being scumread for being myself.
Like sure, you might not do or say things I do and say as town. But that's precisely it.. I'm me. And frankly- you're not gonna find macro differences between my town and scumplay minus that i tend to slank more as scum in general (I understand I came into this game like this, but I had an intention of doing so pregame and all. Like understand that if you go into my town games you will find that I AM like this when in situations like this. The pokemon theme game i reference at cakez is an excellent example.

I will do anything play wise to present my thought process, etc. Even though I resent having to do more work than everyone but seems like I have to here. (I always fight eliminations as hard as I can) i will case as many people as I can as either alignment. Think I'm scum? I'm offering you tons of spew.

Tldr: I just want agency in this game instead of playing "have everything you do get called scummy no matter what"

[Skygazer]

in what world am i obvtown here tho :x

[DkKoba]

Mm. You have a reputation. Don't care much for meta. But, well. Some folks are too consistent. Have to pay attention.

Koba's not scum for inconsistencies. Inconsistencies, NAI. Gravy for whatever meat. Koba's scum for wagon-stoppage. Curse says scum wagons build fast, halt at ~2/3s. Koba's scum for other players' ratfuckery. Curse caught good scum off of that before. Koba's scum for hard defense of a slot they don't like, no one else likes either. Check 396-398.

--Ad.

you realize how fucking illogical this kind of tell is.

I townread a slot, I didn't wanna pull this card but I'm better at finding tiwnies than most people here and thus me finding them town and others mot is not suspicious it's just me being good at the game.

If I die , my legacy is you don't fuckint touch orf without a good case that isn't "vibes "

[DkKoba]

Of course monkey pattern seeking brain wants to see that and think immediately "oh yeah that means it's partnered bc obviously I scumread both so no other reasons can exist"

Like it's frustrating bc I understand why people have these faulty assumptions but idk how to show they're ineffective and inconsistent

Do I have to do a research study with statistics like that's the level of "how to debunk scumreads on me" i feel I'm at.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Koba, I think you're mistaken about how we play things. We don't really use meta unless we have to because of a history of misreading a player as one alignment or another. We know we misread Pooky when he's town, but we have a tendency to paranoia about his slot when he doesn't immediately look like he did the first time we ever played a game with him, even said he should be policied in a game where he was in a hydra with Noraa. (Mountain Dew, right?)

We don't know your usual play. We don't care about it, either. Aside from players who have a reputation for certain behaviors being NAI, like Ranger, we ignore any meta we don't have first hand experience with. We hate even using meta we do have first-hand experience with, unless it's meta that isn't player-specific: finding someone to use as a co-processor, recognizing contemplative back-seat players we can question in the later phases, etc.

We don't care that you gain accuracy over time. If we're wrong this time, we'll keep it in mind. But you have chosen entirely the wrong slot and wrong tactic.

We care about what the game looks like now, in the moment. In the moment, you look like scum. We do not care about your history or your playstyle or your WL% or your EV or your frustration with how other players treat you because of meta that we have never read and will never read. We don't. We are immovable and uninterested. Argue your case by playing through, and if it doesn't work, know that you did the only thing that ever could have worked on us. Because we don't care.

--Orphee Nuit

[DkKoba]

in what world am i obvtown here tho

You shifted into the type of play I saw in garlic bread mafia. Granted I forgot the early game your weird accusation of my entrance being scummy but I now have an updated understanding how it looks from a 3p pov so it's not as bad on you anymore tbh

Also you're the only slot keeping me sane rn and to compare, town datisi often played this role in games with me where they would keep me grounded and that's something I associate with generally towniness. Hard to explain? Guess it's that you are being charitable and seem to have actual takes

[DkKoba]

Koba, I think you're mistaken about how we play things. We don't really use meta unless we have to because of a history of misreading a player as one alignment or another. We know we misread Pooky when he's town, but we have a tendency to paranoia about his slot when he doesn't immediately look like he did the first time we ever played a game with him, even said he should be policied in a game where he was in a hydra with Noraa. (Mountain Dew, right?)

We don't know your usual play. We don't care about it, either. Aside from players who have a reputation for certain behaviors being NAI, like Ranger, we ignore any meta we don't have first hand experience with. We hate even using meta we do have first-hand experience with, unless it's meta that isn't player-specific: finding someone to use as a co-processor, recognizing contemplative back-seat players we can question in the later phases, etc.

We don't care that you gain accuracy over time. If we're wrong this time, we'll keep it in mind. But you have chosen entirely the wrong slot and wrong tactic.

We care about what the game looks like now, in the moment. In the moment, you look like scum. We do not care about your history or your playstyle or your WL% or your EV or your frustration with how other players treat you because of meta that we have never read and will never read. We don't. We are immovable and uninterested. Argue your case by playing through, and if it doesn't work, know that you did the only thing that ever could have worked on us. Because we don't care.

--Orphee Nuit

thanks for contributing to my very uninteractive experience of being scumread for efforting