Mini 2308 | Blood over Utopia | Utopia fell.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

hi i've read some of the game already. wanted to clear something up--eliminations are good for town and town-directed kills are good for town. if a townie gets killed with sacrifice they probably would've been eliminated later, and otherwise we get a cop guilty. i feel confident we want to use sacrifice twice this game. maybe there's a catch but we can only go off of the information we have.

we disagree a bit on who's scum, some of us thought that devil were scummy early on but that could be some of drew's confident personality. meow is maybe our biggest scumread tbh, but maybe that's best to address later anyway.

we have no particular desire to eliminate any of the current biggest wagons, so time to read up i guess.

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HURT: sacrifice w/e let's try it

-ash

i think marci should not be eliminated today simply due to the adorableness of their avatar

-sonya+ivy

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wow snivy is really not trying to look town. like i get that its easy to outsmart ourself with that kind of read but sigh. maybe we're biased cause we agree with him on mech

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Who tries to look town?

scum (to be clear, this is indicating a townish read on snivy)

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@meow i mean it doesn't look like you're getting eliminated today, and i would like to focus on slots that are more likely to get eliminated. the gist of it is that your pushes on csf and penguin felt awkward and a bit nitpicky like you didn't know what to do with your vote.

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i think we're actually choosing sacrifice, it should be clear at some point and then everyone can just vote for it so they can get a say. our sac vote is mostly symbolic atm.

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I still think Merlyn might've TMI'd you and Devil and I think her way of reading you is too clinical. Overconfidence is NAI for you, in my experience how townie you are depends on how hard you hit the slay button.

fwiw we feel the same way about marci as merlyn does

pedit: they could but it's +scum imo. like scumreads flow naturally more often for town

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to expand on that, at least the way i feel about it is that town who is awkward with their vote can just do nothing with it and say "i have no scumreads". whereas scum is more likely to feel pressure to vote cause thats what town is "supposed" to do.

-ash

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ehh ok fine. i'm pretty sure i've seen penguin say "do something" to nonvoters as town in another game. if it's really important to you we can try to find it. i understand thinking that's strange, but i don't understand thinking it's scummy particularly when it's obvious penguin was not the most active contributor at that point. the csf vote was scummier to us though since we think you should've realized that you just had a disagreement with her sooner in the engagement than you did. and the unvote afterwards was where we felt the most awkwardness.

-ash+others

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is 378 still the basis for your strongest scumread at this point? are you comfortable with that if so?

-ace

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i think i've acknowledged penguin does that as town too; what bothered me is getting prodded, telling people to do something, and then leaving. and then coming back when he gets voted, doing a bit of verbal sparring, and then leaving again. pp isn't a wall poster but he does more than this as town very regularly; I've recently linked an example in this thread. i don't think i've been unclear about this read and i'm skeptical of the push here - i understand you're catching up but i imagine you will have searched for penguin in my iso before asking that?

ok we'll keep catching up. i think we quickly searched but missed it. though it think it's strange to ask us why we're pushing on this point when you were the one that asked us to? it's mostly a gut read and it's not like i expect someone to be like "yeah that makes sense" in response to a scumread on them

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fwiw the scumread is now weaker after we saw you were in fact concerned about not having a ton of strong reads (591).

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why is this random mini theme so hard for me to find scum
I'm just gonna town hunt instead

sigh again is it stupid for us to townread this

VOTE: deal with the devil let's try this

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cakez even more towny on page 31 (753 especially)

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I can’t see myself ever going Devil this day phase, and don’t think they should be faded here

can you explain your scumread on marci more, the "i don't like flavor's progression so I kinda want to unvote" is towny to me if anything

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In theory, if Infinity is scum, it’s clearly with Marci.

why don't I just take the easy road and vote cakez or snivy if that's the case?

I don't put a lot of weight into your reasoning here, since it mostly seems based off of "marci shouldn't be scumreading cakez so strongly" when townies very often weight reads much differently than I would ime. maybe it's a bit +scum.

I liked the post where she wanted to unvote cakez because of you, since it feels like a natural town reaction to get spooked by someone voting your scumread with what you think are bad reasons or a bad progression, and I see it pretty often from town. Scum might not want to do that since it might raise suspicion that they're changing their read so suddenly.

With that said, we are still catching up, but as of now I feel pretty good about our marci townread and I don't see a reason why your scumread should be convincing to us.

-ace

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Infinity calling for sacrifice and declaring meow their top SR was ??? but my reads are a mess and idk who I want to vote. Will probably have to discuss that with Drew.

- Alianna

I'm gonna stand by the fact that using sacrifice twice this game is mechanically optimal with the information we have and I'm baffled by everyone who thinks it isn't.

-ace

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I’m bad with choosing mech stuff can you explain

it's basically like an extra elim that gives us money. the downside is that it doesn't work on scum, but that's fine cause then we have confirmed scum we can lim the next day. also only the people who voted for it have a say, but if everyone votes for it, that isn't a problem.

-ace

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If everyone votes for it, we don't get a second project and scum get free money.

- Alianna

right, didn't quite think that through. I still think we should be able to agree on someone to elim ahead of time.

-ace

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i'm pretty suspicious of the way the rules are worded with how mafia get their power though - sacrifice stands out for being free and it really isn't weak enough to justify that compared to like, mayor or whatever. so i think it's likely there is some kind of hidden drawback to it. it's true that we have no idea what that might be and i don't think it totally invalidates sacrifice as a choice but it makes me more worried than i otherwise would be

fwiw I think this is fine and makes some amount of sense to us, it's just not our approach.

pedit: flavor, saying that we're discrediting you makes zero sense, all we said is that we don't agree with your read.

pedit 2: I also think that's fine alianna, some of us were just worried about potentially not getting to d4 to use the second sacrifice if we waited.

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I really don't see why you would think that. I think you're trying to control the narrative no matter what alignment you are, which is frustrating and I'm going to push back against it.

[Infinity 324]

I really don't see why you would think that. I think you're trying to control the narrative no matter what alignment you are, which is frustrating and I'm going to push back against it.

You don’t see why i think you coming after me and pushing back at me could be scum indicative…?

That's not what I said. I said I don't see how, when you made that post, how I could be construed as discrediting you.

for reference, posts that I made up to that point which referred to you: 1129, 1138.

can you quote where you thought the discrediting was?

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I realize this was a few pages ago, but what does the highlighted part mean? Wouldn't it be more scummy to tell people to do something when you haven't done much yourself?

- Alianna

we just thought it was too obvious to be scummy, basically. meow thought it was performative, but i don't see how scum!penguin would think he looked better after saying it (he'd probably be pretty aware of how his iso looked).

though tbf cakez thought a similar thing so probably not scummy for meow

pedit: hmm meow that would make sense

HURT: intelligentsia i guess (though the lovers thing could be good)

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@fl yes, i do see why you scumread her, but we just have a very different approach to scumhunting. i'm well aware that we've been townreading a lot of level 0 scummy things, and we do need to decide on a lim pretty soon. we just have a feeling that people like you, meow, or devil are scum controlling the narrative and it's part of why we don't love the biggest wagons right now. we'll finish catching up and decide on a vote tomorrow.

i don't really feel like asking us to explain their townread on cakez is fair, it's not our read and we don't think it's a particularly good read.

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flavor, I'm still not going to answer your question, if you're town I think you should realize marci is frustrated with your interactions and that's making it harder to read them, not easier.

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y'all i forgot how stressful mafia is

done for the night but flavor is probably scum

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@fl yes, i do see why you scumread her, but we just have a very different approach to scumhunting. i'm well aware that we've been townreading a lot of level 0 scummy things, and we do need to decide on a lim pretty soon. we just have a feeling that people like you, meow, or devil are scum controlling the narrative and it's part of why we don't love the biggest wagons right now. we'll finish catching up and decide on a vote tomorrow.

What did you mean by those people are controlling the narrative? I feel like devil & FL have been pushing in different directions from meow

one or more scum players is having an outsized influence on the narrative is probably a better way to put it.

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Sacrificing me Day 2 if I’m wrong on the fade.

That’s already been set in place.

Seems like you want to keep the Chaos, Roden

this makes zero sense, it certainly hasn't been "set in place", i think flavor knows people aren't going to take him up on this

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given the effort he's put in to control the narrative if town here i'd be very surprised if he's actually ok with dying

i don't understand why we're compromising on someone who has just replaced in and is very active, even if you don't think i obvtowned already it will probably be easy to read me at some point

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Day 2 Sacrifice is BAD. It's just mechanically bad. We have to either forgo a main development project or a Bureau project in order to Sac tomorrow and it sets us too far back in gaining town power.

wait can you explain that? from where i'm sitting, sac

is

the main form of town power that we have.

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fwiw i think it's pretty likely that scum don't have a regular nightkill for balance purposes. maybe they have their own projects, would make sense since the mod hinted at them being able to use money.

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i think roden is probably my top townread

ooh interesting why

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: Infinity 324

why?

VOTE: flavor a few more pages to read but this is where we are at this point. reeally hesitant to vote flavor on d1 since he's way more likely to actually get limmed d1 if he's town, but i don't think that's a good enough reason to not vote our scumread, especially since we townread all the other wagons to some extent. also willing to compromise on snivy.

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oh flavor has no votes anymore :/

VOTE: snivy

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i'm really not sure how you get a 'feeling' for something which is such, like, an arbritary and complex concept, or how you get to that feeling in the first place?

honestly, idk. it's just a sense of uneasiness in our gut about the gamestate. it's not the first time we've felt this way about a game. the point about you not pushing any of the lead wagons is well-taken; you're the one that feels least scummy to us. i do think that simply being around a bunch does lead you to have influence eventually (i think devil has a bit more influence than you're giving them credit for), but could just be wrong about this.

we tend to lose motivation as scum as the game goes on. it doesn't happen in every game, and not saying we have a super weak scumgame or anything, but generally more active players get more readable as the game goes on and i do think that applies to us.

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here (and 1331 a little further down)

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i think we're actually choosing sacrifice, it should be clear at some point and then everyone can just vote for it so they can get a say. our sac vote is mostly symbolic atm.

Ex this post

i mean we were reading the thread and people were going on about how bad of an idea sacrifice was and how people were scummy for pushing it, we really wanted to make our case once we replaced in

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So I’ve been hanging onto a Marci townread from very early in the game. Initially I spent a bit of time fishing for tmi. Marci had some posting that was either super aware of that or just didn’t have setup information, or a group to discuss the setup with.

Maybe it’s reading too deep though. I’ve liked Marci’s headstrong play since then fwiw.

rce is a pretty strong townread fwiw for posts like this. 393 and 394 also felt really towny to me at the time. i'm a sucker for "i'm just here doing my own things sorting" posts and these just seem like weird/random angles for scum

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With Devil, I think I’m Vibing with Drew more than I have in any game before, just kind of casually, and I’m just not seeing ill intent there like I am with some other slots. Like for instance, i don’t think they have a reason to town read me here as scum unless they want me to push a misfade, and turn on me later, but i just don’t get that vibe at all.

Usually they discredit me when they’re scum

feel like you're being pocketed if town here

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Also also Alianna defended cakes again with Marci pushing there in some capacity. I get hydra dissonance but I think the falloff would have been discussed at some point between you two.

in general i'm having a hard time believing that drew and alianna are actually discussing reads outside the thread. it feels like they don't even bring up each others' reads except when asked

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i keep mindmelding with meow (on page 39 now) so comfortable putting them at towny for now

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958 feels really fake to us

we're caught up now

reads:
rce, cakez, marci (these aren't super duper strong but marci seems even more town here based on meow's description)
meow, roden
snivy, nurse, merlyn
aureal, csf (just cause they posted a bunch and said nothing that stuck out as town)
flavor, devil

we're somewhat at peace with being the lim for today (though still holding out hope for nurse replacement to extent the day!)

we'll be around for 6 hours today and a couple hours before deadline tomorrow if people want to ask us stuff

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Why does 958 feel fake to you? I was thinking that was a pretty reasonable explanation of why Deal Alianna thought it was a town reaction from meow.

it's hard to pin down, the part where alianna got slightly annoyed that she had to try to explain the read felt scummy cause townies are more likely to be happy to explain townread or just not feel pressure to i think. the other part didn't ping so much but it did feel like a lot of words for something that should be super ai. like scum could post that for any other reason scum would townread town right

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idk sometimes scum just express their genuine feelings and our gut says this was one of those times ig

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you have a lot of influence on the narrative because you're posting a lot. I don't really think you're specifically trying to. that's not why we scumread you.

the hydra not being coordinated thing happened more in like the first 20 pages, we thought about the lack of scum motivation but i could plausibly see scum thinking hydra dissonance looks towny among other reasons. this could be playstyle

what are you hoping to gain from this interaction? i think you're more likely to recognize town!me by engaging us on something we haven't tried to explain yet

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well you specifically asked us to explain at least the thread control thing, given that we're about to be limmed i don't really know what else you're gaining from this interaction besides sorting us

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tbf we thought you were already voting us

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@meow

906 was the first post where we started to feel better about you which is weird given it's the post we called out alianna for townreading but w/e. it probably wasn't for great reasons but it synced up with what we felt about marci not having played with them before. the devil vote which we agreed with. in 950 we agreed that flavor's read was weird there. 970 and 971 were funny and relatable to us and generally a town way of approaching that I think (rather than ignoring or calling it scummy).

I was actually wondering your thoughts on csf. She looks like she's doing the "towny but not trying to look town", but it's not townpinging us for whatever reason. we'll iso and maybe meta her when we have more time. Mostly I find it weird no one is talking about her.

Aureal is just nothing for me. Maybe she should just be null, cause mostly just saying mech stuff is usually a playstyle thing. We didn't like her vote on us (not much progression there) though we are biased lol.

alianna felt a bit towny in her engagement with us, fwiw

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gj scum!

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I feel like it's less townsided if town sacrifices early and often