Toriel's Patience (end)

[implosion]

hi. can we please for fucks sake not make this day take fifteen minutes total because i essentially know for a fact as town that we can't win without my vote or scum throwing but we can fuck up the day without my vote!

I'm not gonna stop trying to win this game in fifteen minutes, no. Sorry? I guess?

yeah this isn't to you, it's to the people voting you if they are town

[implosion]

like, town should ABSOLUTELY not be in a rush to lay down their vote today unless they are selfvoting, or incredibly, incredibly sure of themself

[Bingle]

Now care to explain why voting for Alisae makes you town? Because i doubt it's the equivalent of whatever you say.

Because... I had no need to do so? I functionally put Ali at E-1 when e wasn't really a consensus read by any means and I could have pushed literally anyone. You prompted me to look into Ali, sure, but off of what was a fairly weak argument that was likely to be ignored. I just happen to be someone who is good at reading Ali, and I don't think you would have known that before hand.

[implosion]

i will say if for whatever fucking reason dann quickhammers here i would consider that a scumclaim and would be absolutely furious if i died and sakura didn't get spared tomorrow

[Sakura Hana]

I don't claim to know or have the answer to everything, the thing is tho, your result is an accident due to Dannflor, he's been behaving weird all game which has been pinging me, and if he's scum then you can't be town or he'd be pushing hard for a game losing move.

What's his other option? Not push me as town? He already shut that door. And notice, if he's scum he's doing a pretty great job of not voting me.

Actually... the later is a good point. Unless he's relying on town to vote for you. Either way, i still know for a fact that my spare is an endgaming move and im not sure on you, heck, im less sure of you than say, Ydrasse.
OTOH, i pushed Alisae spare on the grounds of a townslip being pretty damning evidence of e being town, of which you had to be convinced of, and still had to go dig into the ISO to find a reason to vote. I firmly believe Alisae was never set to be spared or NK'd but i shook up whatever plans scum had.

P-Edit: You didnt put Ali at effectively S-1 unless you knew Dann was always gonna vote Alisae, only one that wanted to vote Alisae and was known to was RCE.

[implosion]

One, sure it's committal. What else is Bingle supposed to do yesterday if Bingle is scum? Try to start a different wagon?

Try to start a wagon on someone other than the person who flipped town and wasn't actually that tr-d ITT? I mean... yeah, probably. I think outside of RCE/Sakura everyone had Ali as a never spare before yesterday happened, and I certainly could have chosen literally anyone to push as a spare instead.

this would be so incredibly outing yourself as scum in the gamestate yesterday i feel i shouldn't even need to say it

the gamestate of yesterday that bingle is describing is just so far from reality, the alisae wagon got pushed through so quickly and easily and bingle is acting like it was some magical impossible thing that was never going to happen

[Bingle]

I would also be absolutely furious if you died or sakura got spared tomorrow, and would march on Isis's house to demand retribution, fwiw.

RCE... and Alisae.

[Sakura Hana]

Like, i was ready to fight Shirou if it came down to it, hence why i told Alisae "so?" when e said that Shirou would come after me very angrily.
But day ended before Shirou even got to post.

[Sakura Hana]

I would also be absolutely furious if you died or sakura got spared tomorrow, and would march on Isis's house to demand retribution, fwiw.

RCE... and Alisae.

?
Isnt this implying a you spare means there's a tomorrow?

[implosion]

there is a HUGE difference between yesterday and today in that today, scum are absolutely obligated to get a spare on scum. they can posture but their votes matter. and the trajectory yesterday was not such that Bingle could magically singlehandedly start a spare wagon on one of his scumbuddies without it being so fucking obvious that he was scum trying to salvage the day.

Who would he start it on? Himself? One of shirou/ydrasse/rce or even dannflor? none of those people were ever ever ever getting spared yesterday over alisae and kyouko

[Ydrasse]

UNVOTE:

[Bingle]

Bossman walked back into the office, lunch break is over.

Please, let this game be won when I get back.

[Sakura Hana]

UNVOTE:

Thank you

[implosion]

thanks ydrasse.

i'm splitting my attention between this and a zoom meeting for the next 5 minutes so i'm going to take the opportunity to try to calm down a bit

[Sakura Hana]

Also thank you implosion for explaining the events of yday better than i could.

[Dannflor]

Basically that it's always possible that I'm mistaking you playing well for you being town.

I don't know what this has to do with the quote from alisae

I also don't know what to do with this read at all

it feels like you're saying there's no amount of town I could be that would lead you to fully trust me which is not really a position I feel you've expressed before today

this isn't what i said??

i said i trust sakura more than you right now

the problem is I don't know what your problem is with me exactly

it's just a very nebulous "I could be playing well" but I don't know why that doesn't apply just as much to Sakura or anything else

idk it's the very same paranoia reads I've been dealing with all game but you've not seemed to have as much of an issue with that sort of read until today

[Dannflor]

i will say if for whatever fucking reason dann quickhammers here i would consider that a scumclaim and would be absolutely furious if i died and sakura didn't get spared tomorrow

i don't know what you actually think i would quick hammer a buddy here

[implosion]

So one other important thing to keep in mind about today is that scum are probably really, *really* reluctant to get a spare on scum by having all 3 of them on-wagon. I might be muddling this a bit by saying this but it's fine. This is because obviously being on the spare wagon today, if it lands on scum, is highly suspicious, and scum absolutely need to be spared both today and tomorrow.

My like, pet scumteam is bingle+rce+shirou, which is cogent in that sense in that they could try to angle for Shirou tomorrow. I think it's much more important than in a normal game to think about every day of this game differently.

The first couple days were basically normal mafia with maybe some odd incentives around bussing. But more or less it was normal mafia. D2.5 and D3 were basically nothing. D4 was a given because imo we all managed the incredibly difficult task of noticing that Taly was obvtown.

Yesterday

was

a real day of the game in the sense that I do think it wasn't an entirely foregone conclusion. Or at least, to townies it wouldn't have seemed that way, because no one was as obviously town as Taly (or imo Keyleth) that was left. But scum still

had

the option of playing the strictly long game, and from what I can see, it looks like whoever scum are, they didn't really have much of a choice.

Today, scum cannot

entirely

play the long game. But they still are obligated to play it a little: they can't treat this like 3p eLo and quickhammer if they get a townie to do the wrong thing.

Tomorrow (if we get there) is the equivalent of 3p eLo in that it's winner take all, and scum's whole entire goal is to make one single townie misvote.

[Dannflor]

i will consider the fact that bingle maybe didn't have other options yesterday besides pushing alisae

I guess it's still not helping that I don't see any potential partners for bingle

like I guess there's a world RCE/ydrasse are just hoping I win the game for them but that feels wrong

[implosion]

i will say if for whatever fucking reason dann quickhammers here i would consider that a scumclaim and would be absolutely furious if i died and sakura didn't get spared tomorrow

i don't know what you actually think i would quick hammer a buddy here

You pseudo-quickhammered alisae yesterday. I don't think it's

likely

that you as scum here would quickhammer your scumbuddy but it's possible especially if you thought some other scum was in contention to be spared tomorrow. And obviously fmpov it'd be really unlikely for you as town to quickhammer town-bingle by numbers

[implosion]

(like, it's possible you'd quickhammer your scumbuddy and then play it off tomorrow, and you making the comment about wanting to hammer test was making me nervous in the moment)

[Dannflor]

okay

[Dannflor]

bingle is there anyone besides yourself that you'd be comfortable sparing

[implosion]

the problem is I don't know what your problem is with me exactly

it's just a very nebulous "I could be playing well" but I don't know why that doesn't apply just as much to Sakura or anything else

idk it's the very same paranoia reads I've been dealing with all game but you've not seemed to have as much of an issue with that sort of read until today

I do think you're town. It feels like you're complaining that you're not my #1 townread but you're basically my #2 townread behind Sakura and I don't know exactly why you're complaining about that.

The kinds of reasons I have for townreading you are i think more likely to be me getting it wrong and mistaking good scum play for good town play than the kinds of reasons i have for sakura. simple as that.

I'm going to towncase sakura soon probably

[implosion]

ydrasse's unvote i think softly implies that she and bingle are not teamed? ydrasse seems somewhat resigned/forlorn towards the game right now (she can correct me if wrong). if she's scum and bingle is scum then i feel like natural inclination of scum in that situation would just be to keep the vote on and hope for the best (e.g. that town-RCE keeps their vote on, etc)