Large Normal 246: Game Over

[Enchant]

Damn if Andres messaged someone we would possible get insight on who alien targeted.


USE DAMN PRS EVEN IF THEY SUCK

[Elements]

USE DAMN PRS EVEN IF THEY SUCK

literally
nothing will happen if you don't do anything
something might if you do
you lose nothing by doing it but could gain stuff

[Hu Tao]

So true besties

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm already confirmed vanilla by Cele, so I don't think I should be checked by Dave right? Dave should try to neighbor Elements.

oh yes, oversight by me. He should check in {Elements, BQ2} if town!Timmer and should add the PRs (Myself/Guillo being priority I think) to his pool if scum!Timmer. Or if we lim elements then just swap their names. I don't think checking the PRs does much good so even with a scumflip I would prefer Dave stays within the VTs

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Summary of why it's Timmer:
1. Fake townslips

[youtube][/youtube]

I was just wondering how they would be summoned from a pt unless they were already on the site and probably following along

What's a pt?

What did Celeb soft claim? How did I miss that

private topic. getting a little obvious with the townslips bucko

2. Subjectively, one might say 2102 is in very bad faith. Others might disagree, idk. I gave him the benefit of the doubt in 2106. Not so sure now.

Dave gob keyleth timmer elements andres.

I think is where I want to be today. Black seemed to be a proponent of leaving Hu Tao alive, maybe this is part of why she was killed.

Celebloki is off the list today because I can see him maybe making a poor targeting decision as town. I liked a point someone brought up about rolecopping the millers. Something like "that's the easiest way to let scum get away with a fake claim". I do think that town!Hu Tao is exactly who a scum!Rolecop would target and for that reason I dont want him to have the easy out of confirming miller claims

I also have not examined Andres' post where he has a lot of post numbers with notes in a spoiler. It could be upon reading that closely I don't want to lim him toDay.

I don't understand this post. You like the point about how claiming to plan to check the millers is an easy out for a scum, AND you think it makes sense for a scum cop to have checked Hu Tao, AND you don't want him to have the easy out of confirming millers, and yet... Celeb is off of your vote list today? And I am on your list, even though I'm the one who made the point that you say you liked, and which it seems is heavily informing your view of Celeb?

Am I misunderstanding, you seem to be contradicting yourself within the span of a single post.

You're partly misunderstanding and partly making assumptions:

Clarifying the misunderstanding - it makes sense for scum rolecop to target Hu Tao last Night specifically. It would be an easy out to let Celebloki check Dunn and I (the Miller claims) moving forward on Nights 2 and on, as scum!Celebloki can just check other targets and say he checked us and that we are Millers.

Celeb is off my list toDay because if he is town he should be given a chance to make a not pro-scum choice with his target toNight.

You assume because it was you that pointed out that targeting millers is an easy out for scum rolecops, that I would clear you from POE. I'm not sure what gives you this idea, but it doesn't clear you in my eyes. Additionally, as I stated in the post originally, I didn't remember who made the post, I just remembered reading it.

3. Timmer discredits meta as a whole when it comes to my meta case on Gamma, and at the same time asks if anyone has meta on me that indicates I'm town from the effort put into reading old Gamma games. Not long before this, Timmer uses something that is similar to if not the same as meta (and even worse, it's meta on another player he equates with Keyleth) to justify town!Keyleth. Seems like he's willing to use meta except when it means Gamma is scum.

Reread some of the end of the day, looking for the Gamma wagon - thoughts:

I feel like Gamma often gets accused of being worried about optics

I saw this in response to some of KawaiiKame's last words. Not great considering Gamma flipped scum. Not really damning evidence here, Elements could say this as town or scum, but it feels worth noting.

Timmer had a bit of a strange end of day. It felt like he was in and out at unusual timings but I think actually what happened was Gamma's claim happened while he was offline.

Pediting my own post: Yeah upon putting all these together and checking timestamps/when Gamma posted her claim, I'm no longer convinced it was a weird end of the day. The progression feels normal, but I will point out a couple of strange individual posts. At first I thought Timmer skated around voting for Gamma but that's not it.

Just did an iso of Keyleth. I don't see anything scummy, they remind of a player from years ago named Juliets' Coffee who posted in the same polite middle ground style. I won't oppose a lim there if that's where we're going, but I'm not really supportive. I'd rather see Celeb or Kyouko, or even Gamma limmed ahead of them personally.

If Timmer is scum this is a bold post given the Gamma flip. If he's scum it would not be with Celeb or I, because why would you put 2 partners in a pool of 3 to be limmed before Keyleth here, regardless of Key's alignment?

I also feel like stating that Keyleth reminds you of another player and using that to indicate that the overall neutrality and lack of anything scummy in Keyleth's posts is kind of like, if not exactly the same thing, as using meta to support a read, which is relevant to the next post's commentary.

I don't really pay attention to any case based on what someone said in a game at some point in the past. A good player can use their meta to their advantage and fuck around with it. Past games and meta are useless imo. Show me shady things from THIS game, not something in last July.

That said, would rooting through past games be alignment indicative? Does that effort to find that old post make Kyouko lean more town?

Kinda weird post... He doesn't pay attention to my meta case on

Gamma

because he doesn't believe in meta being useful, but in the same post he's asking if anyone can confirm I have a town meta of putting effort into meta dives. Maybe this is feeling around if there's still a possibility I can be eliminated on D1 - his vote was on me at the time. Iirc I thought his vote on me looked towny but was also easily faked.

UNVOTE:

Any chance of an updated vc?

This feels like a weird time to unvote to me because his vote is currently on me. I don't see what unvoting me does at this point. I would get it if he was voting Hu Tao or Gamma. Maybe he's just resetting it for the VC but it feels like maybe he's forgotten who he's voting

Additionally, Guillo was pretty vocal in asking me for reasons from

this

game to SR Gamma, and dave was saying that what I'm reading in Gamma's posts is her personality and not distinguishable. Between Guillo, davesaz, and Timmer, there were a few people discrediting my Gamma case

All of these points against Timmer are pre-Roden flip. Haven't checked for those associations yet.

[Elements]

Kyouko, please can you spoiler your quotes thanks x

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Very little interaction with Gamma, none with Roden/CSF/gob slot. I haven't checked how that slot interacts with Timmer yet, but that's less telling imo.

Spoiler: Timmer/Gamma interaction

Why was roleclaiming forebidden, wtf?????

It was a perfect flip of this style of mafia. All of the roles would be publicly known before the game started, but you could never hint at which you were. It was entirely through game play with zero night action results ever talked about.

Hu’s reaction “could be” false?

Here you must read 1064 then move to the interior of the quote block below to continue the converstation

Obviously I meant the thinking they were hammered part. Dude.

yeah and that’s why I find your word choice an issue. I don’t see how you are undecided on the legitimacy of the reaction, so it feels like manufactured leeway.

You don't believe it could have been a real reaction, to the point that anyone using a simple term to indicate that none of us know if it was or not is scummy to you?

That's not manufactured leeway that's me saying I've seen a lot of weird shit in mafia and I don't jump to assumptions very quickly because of it.

Just did an iso of Keyleth. I don't see anything scummy, they remind of a player from years ago named Juliets' Coffee who posted in the same polite middle ground style. I won't oppose a lim there if that's where we're going, but I'm not really supportive. I'd rather see Celeb or Kyouko, or even Gamma limmed ahead of them personally.

Obviously I meant the thinking they were hammered part. Dude.

yeah and that’s why I find your word choice an issue. I don’t see how you are undecided on the legitimacy of the reaction, so it feels like manufactured leeway.

You don't believe it could have been a real reaction, to the point that anyone using a simple term to indicate that none of us know if it was or not is scummy to you?

That's not manufactured leeway that's me saying I've seen a lot of weird shit in mafia and I don't jump to assumptions very quickly because of it.

Let me ask you this: what do you think are the possible worlds where Hu Tao faked her reaction?

Timmer doesn't answer this, in his next post he drops the argument with Gamma and makes a very

surface level push (bolded)

and votes me

I believe Hu Tao's claim and I think the people voting for her should probably find something else to do today

I believe in the standard concept that if someone claims a PR, especially a common one, and no one counterclaims them, that you don't lim then.

Which brings me to this:

I feel like
1. If Hu Tao's claim is real, it's not that helpful of a role right now because we're so early in. It would very hard to correctly guess the NK this early in the game, so even if it's real, scum might just leave them be anyways in hopes they'll get mislimmed before scum want to spend a NK on them
2. Could just be a fake claim because they have a useful scum PR
3. Could just be a fake claim from a goon to try to avoid dying/get value before dying

I feel like if we ignore the claim and lim Hu Tao anyways we would gain a lot more than we stand to lose if they are town. Like risk-reward is in favor of limming Hu Tao.

I've never seen a post like this.

#1 contains both the nugget that a Town Doctor isn't important and suggests that it would be ok to mislim them because hey mafia would likely let them live to get mislimmed later. How is that town?

VOTE: Kyouko

[Naerys]

I'm already confirmed vanilla by Cele, so I don't think I should be checked by Dave right? Dave should try to neighbor Elements.

oh yes, oversight by me. He should check in {Elements, BQ2} if town!Timmer and should add the PRs (Myself/Guillo being priority I think) to his pool if scum!Timmer. Or if we lim elements then just swap their names. I don't think checking the PRs does much good so even with a scumflip I would prefer Dave stays within the VTs

I think its a solid plan.
Btw i am kinda exhausted from all that pre-christmas stress etc, my posts might be braindead for like day or two

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Hmm. That slot mentions/quotes Timmer exactly one time and it's CSF that does it, and her little blurb on Timmer looks somewhat similar to the one on she made on

Gamma

, with the spoilered quotes and the original scumlean for the quoted posts - like TMIing here

Spoiler:

I'm at page 11

Gamma Emerald - lean scum

Spoiler:

I claim miller

Same

jfc

Strange reaction

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

haven’t felt a need to move it
VOTE: KawaiiKame
They pinged me somewhat with how they unvoted kyouko, not strongly though

I feel like forgetting your vote is +scum and this reads a bit hedge-y

Random Nurse
Celebloki
Naerys-

For now my first impressions are that dave and both millers could be town.
Still too far from finding a scum, but its a start.

Was it just for the question he asked or was there more to it?

davesaz
Hu Tao - town

Spoiler: I townread all of these quotes

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

So scum will not target me and I can last till end game. I believe in myself to find scum as long as I'm alive long enough. Now I just need to be towny enough to not be voted out. I've eliminated half of the work.

I think Hu Tao was just joking with the VT claim

Nope. I'm VT

Timmer feels town so far

The "I'm terrible at D1" feels more like a townie trying to explain why he doesn't have many reads as opposed to Mafia worried about their optics

They seem curious but scum can also be curious so I'm not giving them that easy of a town read so far.

Elements is a champion baffler for sure.

I'm not inclined to vote for the millers. I think I agree with Gamma's take.

Not sure why but this post gives me scum pings. I wish I could tell you why

I belive Dunn and ssbm's claim. Unless the small chance they are scum together or scum informed of miller's in this game. Either way, I wouldn't want them today at the very least. If there are actual millers, there is likely a way to confirm that somehow regardless.

Broccoli Quest 2
Guillotina
Cat Scratch Fever
Keyleth
Dunnstral - I was inclined to believe the miller claim out of the gate but kind of hate his posting (sorry). I dunno
KawaiiKame - town
ssbm_Kyouko - town
TimmerRC - early posts spoilered below kinda pinged scum but then 111 was good

Spoiler:

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

It's been awhile, remind me why voting millers is the best option?

Elements - town for having zero filter and just livetweeting every thought she has into the void
Andresvmb
Black

Also then look at CSF's next post - she quotes a few people, and asks all of them except

Gamma

a pretty simple question, but she doesn't ask a question of Gamma. I think she quoted Gamma just to mix her in with some other townies for associations but since she knew Gamma was scum she didn't feel a need to give Gamma question because she doesn't need to convince Gamma she's solving.

The Guillo question is stoking the flames on what is probably 2 town (Guillo and I) arguing over a third townie (flipped town Celebloki).
The question for Black is very basic and Black is flipped town now. Actually these first 2 questions look like they're feeling out how much interest there would be in a wagon on me which should be +town for me from an outside pov
Then the question for Keyleth is also focused on Black/Me/Guillo - feels like CSF picked that little event as her one thing to "solve" around when catching up. The shade on Keyleth is notable as well. Probably worth checking how Keyleth reacts to that

Spoiler:

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

Well now I went and got egg all over my face. I will say I am genuinely excited to actually get to play a game with RN. I definitely was too snarky in that post, but I was just frustrated that it felt like this was another game he was going to replace out of.

Is that what you thought, that Kyo voted for the snark?

VOTE: Celebloki

Why did you vote for Celebloki here? I see later in 444, you said there was TMI - what was the part that was informed?

I think she could be scum and I wanted a wagon

What did you start disliking about Kyouko?

Outline some oh his best noobish posts please.

It’s really just the questions about scumteam size
They’re freaking standardized for Simple normal games atp, if these questions were genuine he should have gotten the memo by now. I know this game is complex but that changes nothing about how the simple guidelines established a baseline that’s set in stone.

I actually don't disagree about the question
But RN's alignment shouldn't be too hard to determine, so I guess I'm not too concerned about it yet

Sorry, a lot of these posts feel really lost on me as in I'm assuming a lot of it isn't really important to the game? At least, that's the easy way for me to handle what just happened.

was this referring to Black's vote on Guillotina or something else? I feel like you're in the game but not really in the thick of it, just kind of hanging in the background so to speak.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Dunn town, which also means andres town

Spoiler:

Lastly I think Gob lied about their reason for replacing out being that they were in too many games. Point being they joined a new game right after replacing out of this one and have posted nearly a hundred times on the site since then.

Yikes

This slot is fucked from the replacements and I don't want to try hard here,

especially since there was really shitty angle shooting about the reasons the previous player in my slot replaced out before I could even get a footing in this game.

I'm a Doctor, I have a modifier that's anti-town to claim and you'll see why when I get killed. That's why I'm hard pushing Hu Tao, and I would've done so even if the Rolecop hadn't checked her.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Random Nurse

- complicated role, probably real, but this is also likely to be the last scum after all the VTs have been confirmed as Vanilla by dave and his own role
Naerys - FN claim, tied to

Guillotina

davesaz - town by claim, spewed town by gob and CSF
Hu Tao - confirmed Vanilla, likely no goons left, spewed town by gob
Enchant - confirmed Vanilla, likely no goons left

BQ2

- green obviously, but unconfirmed and must be checked by RN/Dave

Guillotina

- I don't think role makes sense, 2-shot feels odd. At the same time seems to be spewed by gob/csf and maybe also Gamma, and I thought Gunsmith!Gamma

did

make sense so I could just be wrong. Possible distancer here.
Dunnstral - towny mctownface
ssbm_Kyouko - sweet angel baby

TimmerRC

- scummy mcscumbutt

Elements

- sus, dave/RN should look here
Andresvmb - FN claim, confirmed by towny mctownface himself, and he can also send a message to someone to confirm that part of his role as well. Could be like a scum Messenger with Dunn I guess but that seems highly unlikely. Possibly spewed town by gob.

I think there are also enough PRs claimed out there that I'm pretty safe toNight so I'm no longer feeling the need to slow things down. I think dave is at the most risk toNight so we should wait for his call on when to end the Day but I'm ready to vote Timmer


Also fixing 2605:

Organizing VTs from towniest to scummiest imo

Hu Tao (confirmed/spewed)
Enchant (confirmed)
BQ2
--null line--
Elements
Timmer

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Random Nurse

- complicated role, probably real, but this is also likely to be the last scum after all the VTs have been confirmed as Vanilla by dave and his own role

Adding on to this, even though this is one of the most suspect claims alongside Guillo's, if he is scum he has to help clear VTs or not kill dave who can clear VTs,

especially

if Timmer flips scum because scum are not multitasking so there will be no shenanigans around "oh I must have been blocked, that's why dave died and I didn't."

This is pretty crucial - finding a scum today sort of locks scum!RN into mechanically POEing himself if he's fakeclaimed here, unless he's exactly a Multitasking scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

and giving scum a multitasking role in a rolecop game with all these FNs seems imbalanced - on top of all the clears the rolecop could get, this would be a guilty - no way to explain why town has multitasking unless they have several roles

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Why did mafia go for the kill on Celebloki with a claimed Doctor and with Roden's alien role being dead. That is presumably the mafia's blocking power.

or strongman

Just rereading D3 - I didn't mention it I don't think, but I kinda juggernaut/strongman being the third PR with Alien/TA would also make some sense, just thought it was more likely there was another blocker of some kind like a jailkeeper or something

I don't think it's a good idea to discuss the identity of the doctor or even whether there is a doctor or not, as that can only help scum.

Moving on, I hated Keyleth's TR of CSF's post. The fact that CSF flipped scum makes me hate it even more TBH.

VOTE: Key- Enchant

STOP PEDITING ME

Which post of Keyleth's was this? I'm sure I could find it but I quoted this post while rereading

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'll be targeting Hu Tao.

Can you target davesaz instead in light of the newer developments?

Or at least commit to saying you'll target one of {Hu Tao, davesaz} so that if you're town you keep scum guessing a little and still leave info behind for town if you die?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like Andres Friendly neighbor is complex and Naerys is not

This is why if we get through the VTs via clears/lims without finding scum, Guillo is a prime suspect, just feels like that's not the case though.

Also with it being 1-shot, imagine this hypothetical situation:

Naerys gets run up to E-1 on D1 or D2 and claims - either fullclaims 1-shot or partially claims just as FN with no modifiers. Then Roden Aliens her and the next Day she says who she sent the message too and that person then says they didn't get a message. What do you think happens to Naerys here? If she partially claimed it looks really sus if she then says she's 1-shot and can't try again. It's still a sus slot if she fullclaimed 1-shot from the start in this situation, but also now scum is free to just let Naerys float along toward ELO while they use the Alien role to stop other clears from happening.

What I'm saying is, despite it not being a very complicated role from the modifiers, it's believable that 1-shot FN is balanced versus Complex Alien.

Maybe one of the other scum is a Backup Alien actually, that would make sense. Gives them insurance in case Roden dies early, still allowing them to interfere with a thoroughly stacked set of town PRs

[ssbm_Kyouko]

anyways VOTE: Timmer

[Guillotina]

Im checking in to avoid the prod

[Guillotina]

Anyway I think Enchant might be town. Though not really sure who would be scum here.

Guillo, when you have time any chance you go over associations again and see who can and can't be cleared off of Roden and Gamma?

Uh sure but i need time i cant play today

[Dunnstral]

I agree that Timmer and Elements are :eyes: sus.

[Dunnstral]

I'm fine with any combination of Random Nurse/davesaz using their roles as investigative actions or bodyguarding davesaz

[Guillotina]

I am back.

Anyway i think plan of mod was like:
1. Haha i put two millers and they fight with claiming D1!!!
2. Haha i also put rolecop who can get innocents from them
3. I also give mafia alien which punishes claiming millers by protecting them from rolecop!!!

So maybe two millers is not that terrible that i predicted, but two friendly neighbours... Also make sense.

Need to understand that they most likely are real. There's little reason to chain self to buddy so they confirm you, if that's case it will be evident pretty fast. So FL claims are almost always town.
Targets... Not necessarily.


I find strange fact that mafia just killed rolecop with living doctor claim. Main point is Strange. Not suspicious. Maybe they didn't believe claim at first place (i had suspicions because insisting on not claiming target is bruh)

And MACHO BODYGUARD DISLOYAL VIG... Wait this is another innocent for rolecop. Didn't really notice it before.


Yeaaaah, it's overtaked in town favor, something not real, and i have no clue what exactly.

Whst is so BRUH about not claiming your targets as doctor? Not claiming them makes it harder for scum to try to predict whom i cant protect the following night and they’d just hit me. It is obvious scum couldnt wait to kill the rolecop so much that they took the risk.

[Guillotina]

I'm still thinking guillotine and naerys scum together. But ummm. I'm not sure if we should do that. I think RN should visit a pr but he won't listen to me

So what’s your story here? That i foolishly bus my alien partner and then we device a masterful plan that involves permanently linking ourselves to each other? After losing two partners back to back?

Yah… good luck with that.

[Dunnstral]

I am back.

Anyway i think plan of mod was like:
1. Haha i put two millers and they fight with claiming D1!!!
2. Haha i also put rolecop who can get innocents from them
3. I also give mafia alien which punishes claiming millers by protecting them from rolecop!!!

So maybe two millers is not that terrible that i predicted, but two friendly neighbours... Also make sense.

Need to understand that they most likely are real. There's little reason to chain self to buddy so they confirm you, if that's case it will be evident pretty fast. So FL claims are almost always town.
Targets... Not necessarily.


I find strange fact that mafia just killed rolecop with living doctor claim. Main point is Strange. Not suspicious. Maybe they didn't believe claim at first place (i had suspicions because insisting on not claiming target is bruh)

And MACHO BODYGUARD DISLOYAL VIG... Wait this is another innocent for rolecop. Didn't really notice it before.


Yeaaaah, it's overtaked in town favor, something not real, and i have no clue what exactly.

Whst is so BRUH about not claiming your targets as doctor? Not claiming them makes it harder for scum to try to predict whom i cant protect the following night and they’d just hit me. It is obvious scum couldnt wait to kill the rolecop so much that they took the risk.

You didn't claim indecisive until after you were out of shots

[Guillotina]

I'm just going to post everything I have so far, there are times where I was thinking dave should and shouldn't claim modifiers so you'll see sometimes I talk as if he should hide them and others I consider disloyal versus simple.

Black - Babysitter Hider
Celeb - Rolecop
Kawaii - VT

Hu Tao - VT
Elements - VT
Broccoli Quest 2 - VT
Enchant - VT
TimmerRC - VT

Dunnstral - Miller
ssbm_Kyouko - Miller
Andresvmb - Odd Night Messenger Even Night Friendly Neighbor
Naerys - 1-Shot Friendly Neighbor
Guillotina - 2-Shot Indecisive Doctor
Random Nurse - Macho Combined Bodyguard Disloyal Vigilante
davesaz - Simple/Disloyal (guessing modifier) Neighborizer

vs.

Gamma - Goon
Roden - Complex Alien

Guillo and RN are the most suspicious claims, but RNs claim is more valuable

RN bodyguards dave
dave checks Guillo or a VT

12 alive, 10-2
1 8-2
2 6-2
3 4-2
4 2-2

We get 3 mislims before MELO, 4 lims total
Could be scum are 1-1 or 2-0/0-2 between VTs/PRs.

Assuming there is scum in the VTs, if we lim there, scum would have to kill PRs, because killing a VT would leave 4 VTs and we have 4 mislims.
Let's look at the possibilty there are 2 scum in the PR claims - if we can establish this is not the case, it means there is at least one in the VTs and we can lim in there.
Dunnstral was not neighborized by Dann - Dann is probably either disloyal or simple, so I could see Dunn as just being town here.
Kyouko - I know I'm town but am otherwise unconfirmed by any PR results
Andres - if he's scum it means Dunnstral is too. Dunnstral is probably not scum which means by extension Andres's FN claim checks out and he's town. Andres can send a message to someone toNight to confirm that half of his role as well, and toMorrow night he'll also be able to confirm himself to someone else and that will entirely rule him out of being scum because there are only 2 left
Naerys - same thing as Andres, if she is scum it is with Guillo
Guillo - suspicious that the claim is 2-shot so it now can't be used to help out anymore. With Mafia having an Alien they could stop or kill an ungated Doc
RN - if he's town he can confirm townies every day he doesn't die, and if he's scum he still has to provide us with results in either the PRs or the VTs to narrow things down
Dave - has softed his role is either Simple or Disloyal and will be a prime target for NKs if he is town

It seems unlikely fmpov there are 2 scum amongst the PRs unless it's exactly {Guillo, Naerys} meaning there should be at least 1 in the VTs. Could also be {RN, Dunnstral} - Dunnstral is definitely capable of fabricating RN's claim for him

VTs:

Hu Tao
Elements
BQ2
Enchant - knowing dave's modifiers will shed light on whether this could really be a VT, I don't think there are any goons left. If we kill this and it flips scum PR we will know dave is disloyal but the way he says Enchant is a goon I lean toward simple meaning this is likely just a mislim given town's power level
Timmer

PRs:
Dunnstral - being confirmed/flipped would confirm andres
Kyouko - none
Andres - can send a message to confirm he is a messenger / is confirmed if Dunn is confirmed
Naerys - is confirmed if Guillo is confirmed
Guillo - can be pseudo-confirmed by dave regardless of his modifier, or confirmed if dave is disloyal - disloyal seems too strong for the setup though
RN - can confirm townies every day
Dave - able to confirm other PRs if simple

If we are left with Guillo/Naerys or Andres/Dunn after 3 mislims (6 alive), Dunn/Guillo should contain a scum (Guillo dies first if all 4 live)

All these role make Traffic Analyst very likely for mafia.
An Informed TA could give them the edge if they were informed about things like the existence of dave's role or the existence of FNs (this makes Guillo/Naerys suspect)
Could also see a Simple Alien or similar being able to fuck with the interactions with VTs.
I think Mafia either have 3 PRs, or one of andres/naerys/RN is lying due to "Friendly Neighbor" and "Vigilante" being town-only in normals, which means these are further ways for town to get clears
Probably Mafia have 3 PRs, the flipped Complex Alien, a Traffic Analyst (possibly informed), and something else that can interfere with clears like, idk, a disloyal/simple rolestopper or even a disloyal jailkeeper would look pretty towny to a rolecop, no?


Babysitter Hider is swingy and combined bodyguard disloyal vigilante can be swingy too I guess, can either kill himself or get clears, and given mafia had an alien he wouldn't be able to do anything once his role came out so it's not too imbalanced in town's favor in that respect.

I think Andres should send a message to dave as a way of checking if dave is being rolestopped or aliened, and RN should bodyguard dave. assuming NAR (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ormal_Game), even if andres is NKed, dave would get the message:

Killing doesn't stop the actions of the dead player. (Imagine that all kills happen at the end of the night, and everyone pulls the trigger simultaneously.) This means that kills generally do not affect other actions for the purpose of the Golden Rule.

Scum could risk blocking Andres but in this case dave's hood would go off and as long as he doesn't reveal his target or modifiers, scum will be incentivized to stop dave from getting clears/guilties / frame his targets

How is anyone getting blocked by mafia if their roleblocker (alien) died yesterday?