open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[JupiterXV]

pagetop btw

[Aisa]

someone reread shaddowez and tell me there is a good reason to town read the slot

I can find reasons for aisa, project, outworlder, etc.

I’m not finding one for shaddowez

I think I just... agree with this

sorry for posting 10 times in a row by the way. but it is also kinda dead in here so eh

[JupiterXV]

never read my bad

[Afrayed Knott]

VOTE: Aisa

I'm going to stick with my original thought

[JupiterXV]

i got distracted but ill do it now

[JupiterXV]

pg 84-87

Ok. My vote remains though as I believe you are the last scum. And it’s not solely based on what you feel it is. I’ve pushed you on and off throughout the game as I have a gut feeling you are on the red team.

im not sure what the purpose of this post is

My town core is me, Titus, sky. The next teir is like knot, dann, then shadowez and Jupiter, then I need to have another look at outer and project.

My poe is surprisingly small. My worry is 'deep wolf ' but it can only be Dan or shadow

why are you so convinced that shaddow is town? you've never really explained why

ok can we drop then “performative” angle, it’s just NAI and obviously distressing to Jupiter

It’s not the primary reason I voted them, which has more to do with how they hedged on the T3 read (yes I know I’m a hypocrite)

thank you.

now, to defend myself- i was pretty busy near the end of d2, which so happened to be when t3 was being pushed the most. so i didn't have enough time to read through the thread properly or type up the posts i wanted to type up. even then, i was pretty convinced that t3 was unlikely to flip scum, because the way he posted seemed very reminiscent of townie frustration and i had been holding him at a null-leaning-town spot for quite a while. furthermore, black's eod1 post where she declared intent to hammer on t3 had just about cemented it in my mind that, with her flip in mind, had just about spewed t3 to be town.
even then, i don't see a world where i finds that advantageous. what towncred do i gain from attempting to stop an inevitable elimination on my scumpartner? hedging on t3 as scum is not something that benefits me short-term or long-term. in fact, in what world does scum try to save t3 from a lim at all? does one person's "oh man I think t3 is likely to flip town" do anything at all or does it just incriminate them? that being said- dann, do you think t3's partner is more likely to be on or off the wagon? i'm personally thinking on the wagon atm but i might have to think about it a bit more.

i was wrong, though. a lot of other players, like you and me, were also wrong. why, out of all of them, am i the one who is the most scummy?

And again I’ve maintained this thought from yesterday to today.

why does the fact that you've maintained this thought matter in the slightest?

I just compared OWER's play to mini normal 2316, where he was scum. I think the difference between this game and that game is enough to seal in the townread. In the scumgame he's more aggressive and kind of goes out of his way to discredit some slots. In this game he's felt a bit more "passive". Here he seems more interested in comparing and contrasting different wagons.

I guess that gives me {ower, skygazer, afrayed} as slots that I feel fairly good about so far
been getting a bit of skygazer paranoia but eh don't think it's time to question that too much yet

i also generally don't consider outworld's play as something that comes from scum. OWER seems incredibly detached from discussion and not active or anything. like he's hunting but he's not really /there/ if that makes sense, so he's towny but generally seems to have just sat around poking people here and there until he comes up with a case. it doesnt' seem like something scum benefits from and i as scum would frankly not want to play the long game. it's risk/reward and that manner of posting just doesn't seem balanced out for a scum member

[JupiterXV]

oh god that is nto all i had to say that wasnt supposed to send

[Afrayed Knott]

pg 84-87

Ok. My vote remains though as I believe you are the last scum. And it’s not solely based on what you feel it is. I’ve pushed you on and off throughout the game as I have a gut feeling you are on the red team.

im not sure what the purpose of this post is

My town core is me, Titus, sky. The next teir is like knot, dann, then shadowez and Jupiter, then I need to have another look at outer and project.

My poe is surprisingly small. My worry is 'deep wolf ' but it can only be Dan or shadow

why are you so convinced that shaddow is town? you've never really explained why

ok can we drop then “performative” angle, it’s just NAI and obviously distressing to Jupiter

It’s not the primary reason I voted them, which has more to do with how they hedged on the T3 read (yes I know I’m a hypocrite)

thank you.

now, to defend myself- i was pretty busy near the end of d2, which so happened to be when t3 was being pushed the most. so i didn't have enough time to read through the thread properly or type up the posts i wanted to type up. even then, i was pretty convinced that t3 was unlikely to flip scum, because the way he posted seemed very reminiscent of townie frustration and i had been holding him at a null-leaning-town spot for quite a while. furthermore, black's eod1 post where she declared intent to hammer on t3 had just about cemented it in my mind that, with her flip in mind, had just about spewed t3 to be town.
even then, i don't see a world where i finds that advantageous. what towncred do i gain from attempting to stop an inevitable elimination on my scumpartner? hedging on t3 as scum is not something that benefits me short-term or long-term. in fact, in what world does scum try to save t3 from a lim at all? does one person's "oh man I think t3 is likely to flip town" do anything at all or does it just incriminate them? that being said- dann, do you think t3's partner is more likely to be on or off the wagon? i'm personally thinking on the wagon atm but i might have to think about it a bit more.

i was wrong, though. a lot of other players, like you and me, were also wrong. why, out of all of them, am i the one who is the most scummy?

And again I’ve maintained this thought from yesterday to today.

why does the fact that you've maintained this thought matter in the slightest?

I just compared OWER's play to mini normal 2316, where he was scum. I think the difference between this game and that game is enough to seal in the townread. In the scumgame he's more aggressive and kind of goes out of his way to discredit some slots. In this game he's felt a bit more "passive". Here he seems more interested in comparing and contrasting different wagons.

I guess that gives me {ower, skygazer, afrayed} as slots that I feel fairly good about so far
been getting a bit of skygazer paranoia but eh don't think it's time to question that too much yet

i also generally don't consider outworld's play as something that comes from scum. OWER seems incredibly detached from discussion and not active or anything. like he's hunting but he's not really /there/ if that makes sense, so he's towny but generally seems to have just sat around poking people here and there until he comes up with a case. it doesnt' seem like something scum benefits from and i as scum would frankly not want to play the long game. it's risk/reward and that manner of posting just doesn't seem balanced out for a scum member

The purpose of this post is rather obvious to me, If you can’t see that then fine

The reason for maintaining that thought is again to me is obvious, but I don’t want to push it unless you throw another wobbly and melt down in the thread or Titus gets high and mighty… ITS A GAME EVERYONE. Thank you

[Afrayed Knott]

Just a thought. Titus is conf town, but she is giving nothing to town at all. She should be leading town, but there is absolutely nothing coming from her that would, recently, suggest to me that she is committed to this game. Ok we can argue the toss about its Christmas, but even before then her only input is to get upset with me. Get a grip Titus and lead town please


Sorry if you think I am attacking you, but I am!!

[schadd_]

going ahead and sending a quick prod to half the list now that christmas seems to be past and gone

[OutWorldER]

prod received, still wrapping up Christmas with family so still a bit out of sorts

The Outworlder - Projectry dynamic does confuse me. The strength of OWER's read on Project is surprising to me and I'm finding it difficult to decide if it's because he's right, he's wrong, or he's scum

I literally wall-cased Project during D2 and have pushed him consistently since then? I'm not sure why it's surprising unless you just haven't been paying attention.

That's kind of what I was surprised by - the fact you've been holding this scumread for like a solid 20 days. I'm chronically indecisive and could not tell you the last time I held onto a scumread for that long

I was going to say that despite your apparent convictions that it is Project it doesn't feel like you've pushed him very hard to me, but maybe that's unfair given how fast days 3 and 4 went by

I can be very stubborn in my reads at times. Project also just hasn't posted much that has swayed my opinion of him in the past few days, but as you point out, that might just be a function of how fast the days have moved.

I mostly haven't pushed him very hard because tbh I'm kind of on auto-pilot here. Like I said before I just kind of have a group of people I'm pretty sure the last scum is in (You, Project, It's been 3 days I honestly forget all the names) that I don't want to elim until the other group is all gone (Dann, Titus, Jupiter, Skygazer, and I think I had like 1 or 2 others).

[OutWorldER]

prod received, still wrapping up Christmas with family so still a bit out of sorts

The Outworlder - Projectry dynamic does confuse me. The strength of OWER's read on Project is surprising to me and I'm finding it difficult to decide if it's because he's right, he's wrong, or he's scum

I literally wall-cased Project during D2 and have pushed him consistently since then? I'm not sure why it's surprising unless you just haven't been paying attention.

That's kind of what I was surprised by - the fact you've been holding this scumread for like a solid 20 days. I'm chronically indecisive and could not tell you the last time I held onto a scumread for that long

I was going to say that despite your apparent convictions that it is Project it doesn't feel like you've pushed him very hard to me, but maybe that's unfair given how fast days 3 and 4 went by

I can be very stubborn in my reads at times. Project also just hasn't posted much that has swayed my opinion of him in the past few days, but as you point out, that might just be a function of how fast the days have moved.

I mostly haven't pushed him very hard because tbh I'm kind of on auto-pilot here. Like I said before I just kind of have a group of people I'm pretty sure the last scum is in (You, Project, It's been 3 days I honestly forget all the names) and then a group that I don't want to elim any of them until the other group is all gone (Dann, Titus, Jupiter, Skygazer, and I think I had like 1 or 2 others).

EBWOP, don't post at 1 AM kids.

[Dannflor]

can we kill shaddowez ty

[Titus]

can we kill shaddowez ty

After Aisa and AK maybe

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: Shaddowez

I hadn’t really paid much attention to Shaddowez, but just had a quick read through his ISO and I would be happy with a vote on him.

When he does contribute he tends to question or discredit other people’s town (not scum) reads. It feels like he’s trying to discredit town reads to keep people in contention.

The above isn’t necessarily scum indicative, rather it’s a good thing (at least early game when he did this a lot), but when looking at the flip side - when he tries to discredit or question people’s scum reads - they are largely in relation to defending or directing attention away from T3, who we now know to be scum.

So, it comes across like he wants to keep people in contention who he himself (if he is scum) knows are town, but discredit any suspicion against those he knows are scum etc.

Also, he does a lot of defending of T3 and only seems to question T3 when his fate is almost sealed. At 1063 he questions T3 (I believe this is the first time he questions T3 in a negative light). T3 actually survived this wagon, but Shaddowez questioning occurs when T3 is E-1 and hard claims VT. It looked like T3’s fate was sealed.

He interacts a bit more with Black, but doesn’t ever really cast suspicion. He then is the 6th vote on the Black wagon, but that was a fast forming wagon.

I think these interactions with scum could be suspicious and he only ever seems to turn against them when he believes their fates are sealed, so both feel like last minute distancing.

[Skygazer]

i still want aisa

[Bellaphant]

Play wise it's shadow or outer, buddy equity it's sky or Aisa. We shouldn't lim out of those four I think

[ProjEctRy]

Play wise it's shadow or outer, buddy equity it's sky or Aisa. We shouldn't lim out of those four I think

‘Shouldn’t’ lim?

[Aisa]

Shaddow has decent amount of buddy equity if you ask me
(If scum) he was careful not to be seen defending T3 or Black too strongly at key moments. But there are a few examples of him... ummm... trying not to push T3 too much in his free time

Spoiler: examples

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

I don't want to answer for Aisa but I think that because my statement in 15 was intended to play on Bella's statement in 13, my 15 could appear to be more abrasive, in a sense.

Yes, this basically. T3's post pinged me because 1. he was playing on Bella's post, which I thought could be a way to try to insert himself into the conversation as scum, 2. he came off as kinda serious and antagonistic while doing so, which again I thought could be scum-indicative

I saw this differently - while yes, I could see it being antagonistic looking, scum could have played off it more subtly, or just ignored it at all. Being willing to poke at something and see reactions comes out as townier to me.

Jupiter's 64 feels very townie, good vibes there.

What about this post feels townie to you? None of the discussion points seem to provide any useful information, and the explanations of self-consciousness almost feel like they're WKing Bella here (as does their random interjection defending Bella into the OutWorldER/Aisa posts).

I'm getting a TR on OutWorldER based on 93 and the interactions leading up to it.

That said, getting a ping here:
VOTE: Jupiter

It feel like they saw

some

reason to vote T3 and have been hanging on to it. 70 sounds like they're starting to form a reason to back out of their vote, without having to look anywhere else just yet.

SHADOWEZ

why are you ignoring the t3 wagon huh

Because he's my scumbuddy and I'm not bussing, obvs

As a real answer, I don't see this as a worthwhile wagon. My primary SR right now is the first vote and it doesn't feel like a bus, so it'd be a pretty big swing for me to switch those reads right now. The second vote is an RVS vote from somebody with 2 posts. I do have a slight TR on both you and Aisa right now, but that's not enough for me to hop on just yet.

Why do you think scum would say that out loud like that? Or do you just think he was trying to be open/honest and slipped?

The latter. Lying is a very mentally strenuous task, so telling a half-truth is easier than making up a reason as to why he's ignoring the T3 wagon. I think this is further supported by the fact that shaddowez has so far declined to actually give a read of T3. Every reason he gave for it "not being a worthwhile wagon" has to do with the people who are on the wagon. It reads like scum trying to avoid faking a read.

i find i agree with this actually
while we're on the topic of voting/wagons:
shadow, why did you initially vote me? can you explain that? just curious.

I knew I saw this post and have been trying to find it.

While you're claiming your initial post was RVS, in that same post you voted T3 you also asked him about his SR, which to me felt as if you were looking to make a case from the get go. Your responses to T3 in 70 were very nonchalant, and felt as if you didn't really care about his answers.

^ Day 1. He spends a lot of time talking to various people about their scumread on T3 and softly disagreeing with it

Mostly caught up (read all of the posts, but only skimmed most of the walls). Wasn't going to touch Titus today anyway (didn't pick up on the D1 crumb, but her and Dann were my only two solid TRs from D1).

I'm torn on T3. I've never liked his wagon formations, and in this setup we have a soft guilty at best.

I'm not a fan of Kurta, but the Black interactions make it too obv. WIFOM to be sure, but there's something about it I don't like. In my PoE, but not high. Waiting to see more in D2.

The AK interactions on D1 could definitely be scum theater. 591 could easily be distancing. Yes he was pushing Black all of D1, but there didn't seem to be any traction until it speedwagoned towards the end. Black's self-hammer defeats wagon analysis both from a bussing hammer, or from anyone that was bussing hopping off before the hammer.

More to come...

^ Day 2, soon after Titus claims she JK'd T3

do you have any comments on titus or t3

Unless there's a counter claim, I'm not going to touch Titus. With a doctor still in play, the JK is a soft guilty at best. I'm not opposed to a T3 flip, because it would definitely be informational, but I don't read him as scummy enough to put my vote there yet.

I don't agree with T3 that snivy's "using his vote". Yes, his vote is somewhere, but someone with one vote on them and not much if any conversation around them isn't going to make scum magically appear. I'm still of the opinion that Black was more likely to have been trying to clear her partners with the Kurta associations than partnering Kurta himself, and neither nono or snivy have done anything to make me TR them.

^ Still Day 2

[JupiterXV]

The purpose of this post is rather obvious to me, If you can’t see that then fine

The reason for maintaining that thought is again to me is obvious, but I don’t want to push it unless you throw another wobbly and melt down in the thread or Titus gets high and mighty… ITS A GAME EVERYONE. Thank you

wtaf are you going on about lol
to me it seems like you keep talking about how you've been pushing people over the course of a handful of days for no reason, it actually comes off as performative to me

[JupiterXV]

like you talk about how long you've been pushing people- that means jackshit until you explain why you've been pushing them

[shaddowez]

Finally back - hope everyone that celebrates had a nice Christmas.

I know I have a lot of catching up to do - only having seen the current page so far, if there's a wagon on me and you're on it, it's bad and you should feel bad.

Working backwards for now - in response to 2243, I'm not sure what you're aiming at here. I

never

defended Black, had a SR toward the end of D1 and voted her D2 pretty much as soon as I came back from my V/LA.

As for T3, I was pretty vocal about not liking the wagon or SRing him. You're post makes it sound like I was soft defending (I wasn't, there wasn't really a defense outside of I don't SR him) and not pushing him, which again - why would I push someone I didn't SR when I was voting someone I did?

[shaddowez]

2239 is a repeat (or the predecessor, I guess?) to Aisa from my last post in regards to my interactions with Black and T3.

when he tries to discredit or question people’s scum reads - they are largely in relation to defending or directing attention away from T3, who we now know to be scum.

Other than my push on Jupiter, who I was SRing based on his initial play on T3, where was I doing what you're claiming I was doing?

[shaddowez]

oh god that is nto all i had to say that wasnt supposed to send

This specific post isn't

scummy

per se, but it's yet another instance of Jupiter pointing out that their post wasn't complete, or they'd get back to something, or some other similar filler post that they never come back to. Between this and a few other things, doing this.

VOTE: Jupiter

[Afrayed Knott]

can we kill shaddowez ty

After Aisa and AK maybe

So you are not going to lead town. Great as long as we know you are sitting on your hands.