Mini Normal 2324: Fake Fantasy Facts | Postgame

[Hu Tao]

I thought Hu Tao´s entry was towny but as the game progressed, i dont like her dynamics with Gamma at all.
Also dont like Gamma´s reasoning for switching vote on Claptastik. Overall i get a feeling like Gamma is trying to position herself as town, and is worried that she doesnt look towny enough.
I think Gamma+Hu Tao are buddies.
VOTE: Gamma

This is a great post from you. I think you're town (for once)

[Hu Tao]

STAHP VOTING GAMMA YOU MEANIES >:CCCCCC

nah in all seriousness i kinda hate the general vibes around it's wagon, hard to describe but like, it feels like a lot of people each finding their own small thing to be suspicious about

I don't townread gamma at all but her wagon did go up quickly and I think there have been scummier people here.

[Claptastik]

Hu Tao

, what are your current thoughts on Gamma and the rest of your crew?

[Hu Tao]

Who is my crew?

I think gamma is sus for trying to push herself into a town block. But they aren't my top priority right now

[Gamma Emerald]

I thought Hu Tao´s entry was towny but as the game progressed, i dont like her dynamics with Gamma at all.
Also dont like Gamma´s reasoning for switching vote on Claptastik. Overall i get a feeling like Gamma is trying to position herself as town, and is worried that she doesnt look towny enough.
I think Gamma+Hu Tao are buddies.
VOTE: Gamma

This is a great post from you. I think you're town (for once)

I agree that Naerys feels town, but calling that a great post doesn’t land

[Hu Tao]

I thought Hu Tao´s entry was towny but as the game progressed, i dont like her dynamics with Gamma at all.
Also dont like Gamma´s reasoning for switching vote on Claptastik. Overall i get a feeling like Gamma is trying to position herself as town, and is worried that she doesnt look towny enough.
I think Gamma+Hu Tao are buddies.
VOTE: Gamma

This is a great post from you. I think you're town (for once)

I agree that Naerys feels town, but calling that a great post doesn’t land

I don't agree with the post. But I can see how and why she came to that conclusion so that makes it a great post.

[Upwards]

Okay here we go.

I find Gamma suspicious for the townblock on day 1 when that’s a time where there’s really little basis for such a thing.

On the flipside I like Claptastic, Deltawave and Laplacian for calling it out.

I’m really mixed on Gypyx. She’s very active which is probably a good sign, but then again I don’t like my exchange with her. In #92 she feels the need to state that I shouldn’t blindly trust her, which is obvious enough that it irritated even me as a beginner. What follows is this strange discussion only to end it somewhat condescendingly in #206. Not a fan.

this is surface level analysis
Regardless of my alignment I think calling my townblock out is an easy thing to do as scum. This seems less like a real thought process and more like reflexively giving townpoints to player who’ve criticized me.

I will have you know that all my thoughts are perfectly real, thank you very much. Sorry if they don’t live up to your standards.

So here’s the thing, I believe you’re right. It is an easy play for Scum to call out Townblocks. But it’s just as easy for Scum to get the idea of forming an early town block. And the latter would be way more problematic so that’s what I am more concerned with right now.

So what do you make of that?

I think it would be foolish for me to pigeonhole myself into a position where I would have to maintain my towniness when I feel like I am better at scum when sieing chaos and letting my flip cause wild goose chases

Yeah okay but if you’re scum why play for eventually getting flipped? It actively makes it harder to fulfill Mafias Win Con.

This looks to me like a dubious exchange at best. So nothing I’d reasonably expect from a player like you who has claimed to have played a ton of games.

In other words, I don’t believe you here.

Therefore

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

You don’t understand high-level play if you think getting flipped as scum can’t be a wincon-advancing move.

The second part just looks vague and trite. Calling it a “dubious exchange” with zero backing thought process is unhelpful. And I don’t see how my games played has to do with what you’re saying because

you’re basically saying nothing

.

I’m saying nothing? I shall elaborate then:

Getting flipped as scum inherently hurts your win Con since it’s literally dependent on the number of Scum left alive. All for the potential upside of chaos. But chaos in itself isn’t useful if you fail to then abuse it properly. While the downside of having lost a player remains a cold, hard fact.

Just a simple Risk/Reward question. It’s basically the equivalent of a dubious sacrifice in chess. Now you have to proof compensation somewhere down the line, while there would have been more solid routes available. And in general players will play more solid the more experience they get.

All just very basic reasoning in my mind. So I’m not sure if you don’t understand me or if it’s that you do not want to understand me.

[Hu Tao]

Upwards - towny
Naerys - towny
Claptastik - towny
lucca261 -??
FuDuzn - town
Gamma Emerald - leaning sus
Laplacian - towny
Zebedee - ???
Gypyx - Leaning slightly towny
MargotRosa - scummy
DeltaWave - scummy
Alianna - ????

This is where I am right now. I usually don't have this many reads to start so something could be wrong.

[lucca261]

Lucca, can we talk about Margot more?

But in secret this time lol

Pre edit: I am trying to gauge other's opinions on you(like asking Lucca earlier), like I said I had you as solidly town earlier but am doubting that read now.

And I have said I don't love how Gamma and Hu were so quick to town read me, but nothing really jumps out to me as scummy about Gamma besides that

Sure. Ask away

[Gamma Emerald]

I’m saying nothing? I shall elaborate then:

Getting flipped as scum inherently hurts your win Con since it’s literally dependent on the number of Scum left alive. All for the potential upside of chaos. But chaos in itself isn’t useful if you fail to then abuse it properly. While the downside of having lost a player remains a cold, hard fact.

Just a simple Risk/Reward question. It’s basically the equivalent of a dubious sacrifice in chess. Now you have to proof compensation somewhere down the line, while there would have been more solid routes available. And in general players will play more solid the more experience they get.

All just very basic reasoning in my mind. So I’m not sure if you don’t understand me or if it’s that you do not want to understand me.

This is meant to be a game where I am trying to figure out what works for me and what feels good. So I don’t think saying “your level of experience means you shouldn’t be doing this” is valid based on that. Plus, there’s a line from a past game I feel like referencing: don’t tell me how bad I’m allowed to be. It really feels like you’re trying to act like you have some authority on analyzing me when you definitely don’t.
You do make a good point though that the chaos is wasted if your remaining partners can’t shape it into a winning scenario.

[lucca261]

@264

In regards to the Delta catch-up (not quoting because it's is a big post and you know it would be kinda hard on the eyes):

Not in love with it. Delta back to null. My issue is the easy content. It's all good technical play, but... a little bland?
Her scumreads are Gamma because of the Townblock, Hu Tao for the quickhammer comment and me for supposedly misrepping Upwards.

All fine. But to quote Delta herself: "There are so many more interesting things to talk about in this game."

Seems exactly what an experienced scum player would post on a catch-up to appear towny. Good technical play, scumreading stuff that is kinda anti-town sometimes, stuff that's easy to agree.

One thing I like is the small mistake (that Upwards corrected on @2..) about my exchange with Up. Feel like Scum!Delta wouldn't make a easily correctable argument.

[Upwards]

I thought Hu Tao´s entry was towny but as the game progressed, i dont like her dynamics with Gamma at all.
Also dont like Gamma´s reasoning for switching vote on Claptastik. Overall i get a feeling like Gamma is trying to position herself as town, and is worried that she doesnt look towny enough.
I think Gamma+Hu Tao are buddies.
VOTE: Gamma

This is a great post from you. I think you're town (for once)

I agree that Naerys feels town, but calling that a great post doesn’t land

I don't agree with the post. But I can see how and why she came to that conclusion so that makes it a great post.

I can’t help but find it interesting how Naerys calls Gamma and Hu Tao buddies only for both to swiftly townread her for it. Naerys, can you elaborate on what you don’t like about them interacting?

[lucca261]

It's a lean with reasoning backing up my reads, yeah.

I already said I had a slight scum read, and when I came back, your posts fit into a playstyle I see as scum-leaning, which solidified it.

Can you elaborate exactly how any of the posts I made that you linked to are scummy and not, ya know, how I play the game?

Like seriously saying me making a joke about the page top is scummy???

Like I said, I feel like you are being wildly disingenuous here. There is no world where you find everything I do as actually scummy.

I didn't find everything you did scummy. I just gave some possible worst faith interpretations of what you said, which is often how I play the game, so I can reason through which of those worst faith interpretations are actually worth taking seriously.

I'm going to gestate, and do some further research. I'm also in the process of forming my full read list, which is difficult as many people haven't posted all that much, but should it have posted in the next couple days. Going to gf's dad's birthday in a few hours and then catching up on needed sleep, so may be a bit inactive in the interim

You have used the possible worst faith interpretations, as you put it, and used it to push me as scum......without considering any other interpretation of my posts.

That is not how town would act

Lucca, no need to talk more, thank you for our dance we had.....maybe we will dance again soon, but time to get actual scum

VOTE: Margot

Back to this(although as someone who is town reading Margot, I would like your interpretation of this back and forth with me and her.....Lucca)

I don't really think it's that alignment-indicative. Could see it coming from both TvT or TvS.
I think

@270

raises some good points, even it is a little tunnelly. Sure, it seems like she's reading everything you're doing as scum. But I have done this as town. Sometimes I was wrong, sometimes I was right. Confbias is a powerful afrodisiac.
For example: there is merit on the stuff about you seemingly fishing for wagons. Hadn't caught that.

The only thing that pings me is that I thought her point about you using a pagetop to set a positive tone was pretty clear.

@276

felt a little disingenuous.

[lucca261]

@264

In regards to the Delta catch-up (not quoting because it's is a big post and you know it would be kinda hard on the eyes):

Not in love with it. Delta back to null. My issue is the easy content. It's all good technical play, but... a little bland?
Her scumreads are Gamma because of the Townblock, Hu Tao for the quickhammer comment and me for supposedly misrepping Upwards.

All fine. But to quote Delta herself: "There are so many more interesting things to talk about in this game."

Seems exactly what an experienced scum player would post on a catch-up to appear towny. Good technical play, scumreading stuff that is kinda anti-town sometimes, stuff that's easy to agree.

One thing I like is the small mistake (that Upwards corrected on @2..) about my exchange with Up. Feel like Scum!Delta wouldn't make a easily correctable argument.

EBWOP: Upwards corrected it on

@299

[lucca261]

Overall catchup thoughts:

Spoiler:

@Gyp, can we add Delta/Upwards to the "let's wait a flip and check connections" pile?
Refer to

@264

,

@273

,

@299

and

@306

.

Ehh on Hu Tao now.

Think Clap vs. Gamma feels a lot like two stubborn town players annoyed with each other while scum uses this to lay low and push wagons. Won't be surprised if there are scum voting both.

@325

is so defensive by Clap that I see it as town. And Gamma is kinda complex to me so I'm not trying to read her.

Upwards continues to look scummy for me which is sad because he looks like a fun player to play with. But my vote is fine where it is.
On regards to that, I kinda think there is at least one newb!scum on this game. The townblock stuff becoming so taboo is suspicious.

[lucca261]

E-1, that's like gonna lim soon? Why so quick? Anyway have to shoot the roundabout needs fixing and Gertrude needs her hay.


Boinnnng time for bed...

it's time to contribute
what's your opinion on the Townblock discourse

think you caught anyone spouting crap?

[Gamma Emerald]

I thought Hu Tao´s entry was towny but as the game progressed, i dont like her dynamics with Gamma at all.
Also dont like Gamma´s reasoning for switching vote on Claptastik. Overall i get a feeling like Gamma is trying to position herself as town, and is worried that she doesnt look towny enough.
I think Gamma+Hu Tao are buddies.
VOTE: Gamma

This is a great post from you. I think you're town (for once)

I agree that Naerys feels town, but calling that a great post doesn’t land

I don't agree with the post. But I can see how and why she came to that conclusion so that makes it a great post.

I can’t help but find it interesting how Naerys calls Gamma and Hu Tao buddies only for both to swiftly townread her for it. Naerys, can you elaborate on what you don’t like about them interacting?

You see, stuff like this is why I’m talking down to you, because it’s not the read itself, it’s the thought process around it.

[Gamma Emerald]

Not saying there’s anything really wrong with the rest of that post. Just think the way it is written is imprecise to what is going on on my end at least

[Claptastik]

Gamma likes the 1v1 with the newbie.

[Gamma Emerald]

?

[DeltaWave]

We have a whole week left for the day. Going into night when we have like, four or five people who haven't really contributed is not pro-town.

This looks like a post that scum does to contribute to the conversation without actually saying anything.

VOTE: Delta

There is so much bad reasoning behind this post that I don't even know where to start. Is it because I just made a post outlining my reads on everybody, thus making it impossible to say I'm not contributing? Is it because Hu Tao themselves have made multiple no-content posts so this is a pretty hypocritical thing to say? Is it because I actually did have a point by saying I didn't want D1 to end within the first couple of days? (Town benefits from day, scum benefits from night, it's a fact - and we have basically no information from multiple players, one of which is being replaced.) Is it because Hu Tao did nothing to rebut my arguments except for finding the thinnest of reasons to vote for me? Is it because it's plainly OMGUS? If you said "all of the above", you'd be right!

Hu is really near the top of my sussy impostor list.

[DeltaWave]

@264

In regards to the Delta catch-up (not quoting because it's is a big post and you know it would be kinda hard on the eyes):

Not in love with it. Delta back to null. My issue is the easy content. It's all good technical play, but... a little bland?

I consider it a badge of honor that the best defense you can muster to this is that it's a "little bland."

Her scumreads are Gamma because of the Townblock, Hu Tao for the quickhammer comment and me for supposedly misrepping Upwards.

All fine. But to quote Delta herself: "There are so many more interesting things to talk about in this game."

Seems exactly what an experienced scum player would post on a catch-up to appear towny. Good technical play, scumreading stuff that is kinda anti-town sometimes, stuff that's easy to agree.

This is maybe the first time I've ever seen someone say that scumreading anti-town activity is scummy. I guess I should be reading pro-town activity as scummy instead!

One thing I like is the small mistake (that Upwards corrected on @2..) about my exchange with Up. Feel like Scum!Delta wouldn't make a easily correctable argument.

What is this about? I don't understand.

[lucca261]

@264

In regards to the Delta catch-up (not quoting because it's is a big post and you know it would be kinda hard on the eyes):

Not in love with it. Delta back to null. My issue is the easy content. It's all good technical play, but... a little bland?

I consider it a badge of honor that the best defense you can muster to this is that it's a "little bland."

Her scumreads are Gamma because of the Townblock, Hu Tao for the quickhammer comment and me for supposedly misrepping Upwards.

All fine. But to quote Delta herself: "There are so many more interesting things to talk about in this game."

Seems exactly what an experienced scum player would post on a catch-up to appear towny. Good technical play, scumreading stuff that is kinda anti-town sometimes, stuff that's easy to agree.

This is maybe the first time I've ever seen someone say that scumreading anti-town activity is scummy. I guess I should be reading pro-town activity as scummy instead!

One thing I like is the small mistake (that Upwards corrected on @2..) about my exchange with Up. Feel like Scum!Delta wouldn't make a easily correctable argument.

What is this about? I don't understand.

My defense was weak? What would you call your attack, considering it's factually incorrect?

[MargotRosa]

I apologise in advance for the super long psot, but I've finally put together my mid-D1 reads.

Town Lean

Gamma Emerald

The town block conversation has been playing out already, so I'm not going to bother adding to it, other than to say I think 298 does a good job of explaining why the block was made in the first place. I get so lost in RVS, and the plan to get out of RVS with a solid basis from which to make reads from others' responses to it is really intelligent.

I think 255 is town indicative, as I just don't think scum are that obvious about what they are doing and why. I also think responses to finger pointing are too reasonable to be from scum, and indicate a level of confidence in the town motivation of play up to this point.

Gypyx

Gypyx's posting is an enigma, which, given her troll avatar, I imagine and hope she would take as a compliment. I like completely remaking my reads list on players from scratch, and it's very amusing to me that I've written scum lean? and town lean? for her on separate pages. At any rate 74 and 89 look town motivated to me right now. I like the fact that she is so clearly committed to moving the game forward. 106 and 111 in particular feel like posts made by someone who is considering not just which players might be scum, but also which players are most efficient to go after from a scum hunting perspective, which looks town motivated to me. I reeeaaaally like 206 for similar reasons, and I agree a lot with 340, in that votes for GE felt opportunistic.

lucca261

My first impression with this slot was that I felt very familiar rn with the lack of self confidence in 173, which makes me think town. I also just think his reaction to my posts about FD are really sensible and reasoned and, consequently, town aligned. 362 is reasonable and well thought out in particular. I like it when people agree with me, but I love it when they only sort of agree with me, because it looks like someone who is actually trying to work this out, as opposed to jumping on other people's logic, which is ultimately a town move.

Null

Alianna

Going to wait until she is replaced to get a clearer read. Null as I do have some reads that I feel can be disregarded given that they've hbad to drop out for whatever reason, and said reason may have influenced the way they are posting.

Claptastik

Initial gameplay looks similar to town play in the past. See, for contrast, the only scum game of theirs I could find, in which they actively engage with RVS: viewtopic.php?p=13832220#p13832220. Possibly NAI, as it was their first game, but seemed worth mentioning.

I personally don't love their motivations for voting for GE. This may just be play related, but it's hard to tell as from what I've seen, this is by far and a way the most engagement they've had with a game on this site. Did a quick count, and he's played 4 games (one ongoing, but he's dead). Law of averages, you'd expect this game to account for roughly 20% of posts in total, and this game already accounts for 15%, despite our being not even halfway through day 1. I don't know that this is alignment indicative in of itself, but it definitely makes reading his meta difficult. He's definitely hunting, I'm just having trouble working out definitively whether its scum or scummy town.

DeltaWave

Difficult to read because of low post count, which is ironic given how often low post count comes up in 264. I disagree with a lot of those reads, but that's NAI right now. It would certainly be unfair of me to place them lower than Clap though, and I feel comfortable keeping them Null.

Laplacian

Limited post count makes a read difficult. The comment in 119 about Delta not responding to the RVS vote twigged me a little. If I didn't already know I was town, 228 looks like TMI. Good luck to your wife with the dance championships <3

Hu Tao

For whatever reason, probably the first few posts, I think I had very incorrectly assumed this slot was new, but I've learned better now. 313 felt like an intentional misread, though that could just be defensiveness talking. I do think a lot of their posts are very mechanical, and it's hard to get anything definitive or clear from them. Long and short of it is that they've made a lot of short posts with reads that are reasonable, but nothing that really jumps out at me as being pro-town or super engaged in town aligned scum-hunting. Closest null slot to being placed in scum leaning at present.

Naerys

Very little content. I really like 339, even though I disagree with the Gamma read, but there's not enough to be clearly alignment indicative.

Upwards

A slot that's gotten a lot of heat. I didn't find 81 abnormal at all. Clearly nervous, but I too can remember feeling nervous as town and desperately not wanting to get eliminated first day, even if that attitude is not necessarily the most helpful for town. I think there's definitely an element of defensiveness going on (rf. 121 306 356). Read on their scum hunting is basically similar to Naerys, with the added caveat that it feels mostly externally prompted. Slot to keep an eye on, but null for the moment.

Scum lean

FuDuzn

My mind hasn't really changed since the last few posts I made on this slot. Realistically, their responses to it just solidified my earlier thoughts.

Zebedee

Again, little content, but given the complete lack of hunting, or argumentation, this slot honestly feels like new scum at a loss for how to even pretend to scum hunt. Slight scum lean for now.

[MargotRosa]

That took two solid hours lol