Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[implosion]

How am i calling things scummy for no reason? My read is that Dragon is acting similar to his scum meta and Ive explained why.

Why the discredit? If dragon isnt mafia then yea im lookin in the wrong place but
1. i dont think i am
2. even if i am, dragon should be the one to reapond, not you. Especially because your whole read on my Dragon read is wrong.

That big post feels like a discredit and trying to bury me with a mountain of words. When the crux of the post is really weak (imo)

i mean you've said not that many things for dragon to respond to? And also uh, he did respond so I'm not sure what you want me to wait for before saying things? I see two concrete things you've about him: you said you think he's doing things that are outwardly townie to appear townie and you accused him of fencesitting on you. To the latter, town also fencesit sometimes and I don't find it convincing. To the former, a lot of things he's done simply look townie to me as I've described in my iso. And to the broader point of you thinking his play feels like it did with him as scum, his play here feels like it did when he was town to the point where I compared his play in this game to a different game where he was town where

i didn't even know he was in that other game

because he was on a secret alt. His play strongly reminded me of what I thought was someone else's play, and it turns out that it was actually his play where he was town.

so u are mad that you didn't know dragon knew your meta and ignored it?
but u still think he's town.
just checking to make sure i'm not misinterpreting.
tho, do u think ignoring meta is nai or would u say that doing so could be deliberate?

I think on the whole he's still town. I'm probably overweighting or overthinking the way he's playing toward me because the essence of his play is *very* similar to what I apparently know of his towngame, and I think the things I've thought were townie still apply. I just do not fucking understand why he's on my ass the way he has been and why he's basically forced me to the sidelines and is now refusing to rethink things after the coalition failed. I'm guessing he probably will eventually. I'm sort of mad about the meta thing but mostly I'm just mad that he's been approaching me with what feels like thinly veiled refusal to engage or rethink after an initial scumread that's turned into a tunnel

[Prism]

Vote Count 1.1

Player	Votes
Appearance (1)	ssbm_Kyouko (662)
ssbm_Kyouko (1)	DragonEater70 (665)
Not Voting (7)	implosion, Klick, DeasVail, T3, gob, Ydrasse, Appearance

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2024-01-20 17:45:00).

[implosion]

I wish DV were in instead of Klick tbh, would make this day a lot easier.

Does this give away that kyouko knew the coalition was going to fail anyway?

How does kyo know that the coalition still would have failed with me in it instead of Klick?

I know that klick is a consensus townread, but this still reveals a sort of thought process that I think comes from an informed perspective rather than uninformed

I don't really buy this line of reasoning, I think it's pretty normal to think that replacing someone with your biggest scumread would likely have also led to a failed coalition. Or that kyouko wasn't even thinking about whether that'd mean the coalition would have maybe succeeded. Like it's strictly a logical inconsistency but I think the thought process that would lead to it being posted is not unusual.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

tho the part on dv is weird.
as we wouldn't have known if the other coalition would've passed or not.

I wasn't thinking about whether it would have passed, I was thinking I really just want to vote DV right now but it doesn't make sense to start outside the coalition since we

know

there's at least 1 scum in the coalition. So those 2 thoughts together = "i wish DV were in the coalition" - "instead of Klick" comes because I associate the two together but DV is the one I individually SR and Klick feels like he could be getting snowed due to his familiarity with DV. So I'd much rather go DV first in a regular mountainous game with no coalition info

[Appearance]

tho the part on dv is weird.
as we wouldn't have known if the other coalition would've passed or not.

I wasn't thinking about whether it would have passed, I was thinking I really just want to vote DV right now but it doesn't make sense to start outside the coalition since we

know

there's at least 1 scum in the coalition. So those 2 thoughts together = "i wish DV were in the coalition" - "instead of Klick" comes because I associate the two together but DV is the one I individually SR and Klick feels like he could be getting snowed due to his familiarity with DV. So I'd much rather go DV first in a regular mountainous game with no coalition info

i see.
i think i get it now.

[Appearance]

so u are mad that you didn't know dragon knew your meta and ignored it?
but u still think he's town.
just checking to make sure i'm not misinterpreting.
tho, do u think ignoring meta is nai or would u say that doing so could be deliberate?

I think on the whole he's still town. I'm probably overweighting or overthinking the way he's playing toward me because the essence of his play is *very* similar to what I apparently know of his towngame, and I think the things I've thought were townie still apply. I just do not fucking understand why he's on my ass the way he has been and why he's basically forced me to the sidelines and is now refusing to rethink things after the coalition failed. I'm guessing he probably will eventually. I'm sort of mad about the meta thing but mostly I'm just mad that he's been approaching me with what feels like thinly veiled refusal to engage or rethink after an initial scumread that's turned into a tunnel

i see.
i feel like dragon could be one of those players whose has a playstyle that's prone to tunnelling.
or he thinks that ur scum again since in the last coalition game, which u both were in, u were widely tred and carried the team to a win. he could've just convinced himself that anything u do is prob coming from scum. regardless if true or not.

[Appearance]

tbh it's not that hard to misread u.
imho u are pretty much someone who i'd say is generally hard to read.

[DragonEater70]

implosion: "I am not going to belabor the alt thing"

*immediately proceeds to belabor it*

Additionally, no you are wrong. Yes I did have an additional advantage of reading you this game. Part of my gut ping on you being scum was that your entrance was incredibly similar to the last game. Your gameplay has been different but the circumstances have also been different. I am calling you out for being in your scum meta, which includes trying to be thoughtful and neutral in your approach. Amd the fact that I am in my town game, despite nobody here having that meta so I could get towncred for me, should make you locktown me unless you think I would just imitate meta that doesn't exist as scum. The talk about how it's scummy to think you are scum is extremely disingenuous.

VOTE: implo

Wanted to do this since page 2.

[DragonEater70]

Actually

I should probably read the whole post before I vote

UNVOTE:

[Appearance]

dragon, don't u think implo would realise that he'd be obvscum if he stuck to the same playstyle for two coalition games in a row?
p-edit:

implosion: "I am not going to belabor the alt thing"

*immediately proceeds to belabor it*

Additionally, no you are wrong. Yes I did have an additional advantage of reading you this game. Part of my gut ping on you being scum was that your entrance was incredibly similar to the last game. Your gameplay has been different but the circumstances have also been different. I am calling you out for being in your scum meta, which includes trying to be thoughtful and neutral in your approach. Amd the fact that I am in my town game, despite nobody here having that meta so I could get towncred for me, should make you locktown me unless you think I would just imitate meta that doesn't exist as scum. The talk about how it's scummy to think you are scum is extremely disingenuous.

VOTE: implo

Wanted to do this since page 2.

[DragonEater70]

dragon, don't u think implo would realise that he'd be obvscum if he stuck to the same playstyle for two coalition games in a row?
p-edit:

implosion: "I am not going to belabor the alt thing"

*immediately proceeds to belabor it*

Additionally, no you are wrong. Yes I did have an additional advantage of reading you this game. Part of my gut ping on you being scum was that your entrance was incredibly similar to the last game. Your gameplay has been different but the circumstances have also been different. I am calling you out for being in your scum meta, which includes trying to be thoughtful and neutral in your approach. Amd the fact that I am in my town game, despite nobody here having that meta so I could get towncred for me, should make you locktown me unless you think I would just imitate meta that doesn't exist as scum. The talk about how it's scummy to think you are scum is extremely disingenuous.

VOTE: implo

Wanted to do this since page 2.

I think implo has not been actively trying to play the game the same way. BUT I think he's in his scum meta.

I am going to go read his play in Toriel's game to compare though.

[DragonEater70]

Okay I am going to ask all of you kindly and especially implosion not to bring the alt thing into the conversation. It will not help you solve me in any way considering I'm already transparently town here and I was also transparently town there.

And I will read the Toriel game.

[Appearance]

dragon, don't u think implo would realise that he'd be obvscum if he stuck to the same playstyle for two coalition games in a row?
p-edit:

implosion: "I am not going to belabor the alt thing"

*immediately proceeds to belabor it*

Additionally, no you are wrong. Yes I did have an additional advantage of reading you this game. Part of my gut ping on you being scum was that your entrance was incredibly similar to the last game. Your gameplay has been different but the circumstances have also been different. I am calling you out for being in your scum meta, which includes trying to be thoughtful and neutral in your approach. Amd the fact that I am in my town game, despite nobody here having that meta so I could get towncred for me, should make you locktown me unless you think I would just imitate meta that doesn't exist as scum. The talk about how it's scummy to think you are scum is extremely disingenuous.

VOTE: implo

Wanted to do this since page 2.

I think implo has not been actively trying to play the game the same way. BUT I think he's in his scum meta.

I am going to go read his play in Toriel's game to compare though.

i see.

Okay I am going to ask all of you kindly and especially implosion not to bring the alt thing into the conversation.

will do.

[implosion]

i think it's best for the game if i just fully don't engage with dragon.

tbh it's not that hard to misread u.
imho u are pretty much someone who i'd say is generally hard to read.

I accept that, it's just the way he's gone about it that's led to how I feel about everything.

Honestly it's also entirely possible that people are just like,

actively

bad at reading me right now. I was universally townread in coalition, I was pretty widely scumread or at least near the bottom of the pile in Toriel's patience, and now there's this game.

ISOing kyouko. There's something about her play that feels generally similar to her play in Toriel's patience (we were both town, but she did replace in late). I didn't really read her that closely in that game iirc, I think I was mostly relying on a read on her predecessor but looking a little at her play in both games her approach to argumentation and like, the cadence of her making points feels somewhat similar. I don't think it's tangible enough to really be the basis for a read though and I have definitely played with her other times but don't really remember them.

Her wanting both DV and Klick off of the coalition could be a way for her to try for a single scum coalition if she's scum with DV (which I don't think is particularly likely) or Klick (even less likely). Otherwise, if there's already scum on the coalition, her play seems sort of overly earnest for scum who would be fighting to join a coalition that already has scum. That includes the Elements slot even though it wound up off coalition. The only other slot is T3 who she could be scum with. I do like her post (452) on T3 though. I think the conclusion of "he might be scum with implo but is otherwise maybe townish but needs to do more stuff" is sort of an unnecessarily nuanced take for scum to make with either alignment from T3. If T3 is town and she's scum then she's doing this weird tact of tying these two widely scumread town slots together but also not committing to it that I don't think has a lot of utility as scum, and if they're both scum then the whole post is just weirdly conspicuous of a post for scum to make about their scumbuddy in that situation.

I feel like her play as a whole is pretty consistent with town who early on was trying to find bits of the game to stick on to (like the elements heal) and then got more time and started to kick into gear as the game was getting going. I do agree with Dragon that her Appearance vote is bad, it feels somewhat overjustified.

[implosion]

I still kind of like Ydrasse's early play toward me, coming off of Toriel's patience it feels like the right amount of skepticism toward scumreads of me for the right reasons. I also like her early self-analysis. 354 also feels particularly like a town post, i think it's awkward for scum out of nowhere to either put up a 5-town coalition or put up a coalition with their scumbuddy on it. Possibly less so if she's scum with elements or appearance since she said they'd be the first to go off the list in case she got added (which part of me thinks would be a bit conspicuous but from my recent experience playing scum in this setup you do feel like you have to be a bit conspicuous in that way sometimes. Or at least i did). 540 gives me mixed feelings as sort of the follow up to that post in that it is kind of an easy thing to do as scum to throw up your hands in the air, give a couple strong townreads, and then prepare for pretty much any form of the coalition failing. The coalition was 1 vote from passing so maybe this post is like, a wriggle as scum to try to get out of an all-town coalition she'd committed to without having to unvote it? the third paragraph in the post seems really hard to make in that case though so probably if she's scum there was already scum in that coalition.

I think the main thing I probably should be looking for in Ydrasse's play is a specific form of motivation/caring that she had in spades in Toriel's patience where it was like, abundantly clear that even though she was being thoroughly beaten down by the gamestate she still cared about the game. And she hasn't been beaten down by the gamestate in this game but she has been a little out of it and 540 gives me some worries on that front because making a big post like that and then doing nothing post coalition yet is kind of yikes in that department, like it would make sense as scum who is trying to wait a bit to see where the cards fall + who is running out of that kind of motivation to muster consistently.

[implosion]

I'm going to look at Appearance more tomorrow but suffice to say that i am internally assuming he is the alt Dragon said for like 4 different reasons (and I was somewhat thinking it before dragon said it as well) and it is coloring my view of that slot as well. If that is right then I think I'm not very good at reading him in general

[implosion]

I'm also kind of hoping Klick or like, maybe DV or kyouko (if they're town) will find me as town at some point because they're the only slots that it feels appealing to work with right now and I feel like i need help to make headway right now

[Ydrasse]

i just haven't... felt like posting. i've been procrastinating on doing a lot of things the past few days and this is an unfortunate victim of it.

i live vaguely in a world i think rn where it's like... gob... appearance...??? maybe??? as the wolf team. i'm unsure. i haven't sifted through the last few pages much yet but i saw my name and it was shiny to my eyes

[DeasVail]

hmmmmmmm

VOTE: Appearance

[DeasVail]

At this stage I think I would go for either Appearance or Kyouko

[gob]

A lot of these posts from implo are too long for me to read. Can someone summarize it?

I feel like implo and dragon might be the team here

[gob]

VOTE: implosion

[gob]

implo dragons response to me wasnt actually a response. He just said “ur bad at reading me for 2317” totally disregarding the fact i was wolf with him not too long ago

[ssbm_Kyouko]

i think it's best for the game if i just fully don't engage with dragon.

tbh it's not that hard to misread u.
imho u are pretty much someone who i'd say is generally hard to read.

I accept that, it's just the way he's gone about it that's led to how I feel about everything.

Honestly it's also entirely possible that people are just like,

actively

bad at reading me right now. I was universally townread in coalition, I was pretty widely scumread or at least near the bottom of the pile in Toriel's patience, and now there's this game.

ISOing kyouko. There's something about her play that feels generally similar to her play in Toriel's patience (we were both town, but she did replace in late). I didn't really read her that closely in that game iirc, I think I was mostly relying on a read on her predecessor but looking a little at her play in both games her approach to argumentation and like, the cadence of her making points feels somewhat similar. I don't think it's tangible enough to really be the basis for a read though and I have definitely played with her other times but don't really remember them.

Her wanting both DV and Klick off of the coalition could be a way for her to try for a single scum coalition if she's scum with DV (which I don't think is particularly likely) or Klick (even less likely). Otherwise, if there's already scum on the coalition, her play seems sort of overly earnest for scum who would be fighting to join a coalition that already has scum. That includes the Elements slot even though it wound up off coalition. The only other slot is T3 who she could be scum with. I do like her post (452) on T3 though. I think the conclusion of "he might be scum with implo but is otherwise maybe townish but needs to do more stuff" is sort of an unnecessarily nuanced take for scum to make with either alignment from T3. If T3 is town and she's scum then she's doing this weird tact of tying these two widely scumread town slots together but also not committing to it that I don't think has a lot of utility as scum, and if they're both scum then the whole post is just weirdly conspicuous of a post for scum to make about their scumbuddy in that situation.

I feel like her play as a whole is pretty consistent with town who early on was trying to find bits of the game to stick on to (like the elements heal) and then got more time and started to kick into gear as the game was getting going. I do agree with Dragon that her Appearance vote is bad, it feels somewhat overjustified.

I would think it would seem more like I'm scum with Klick than DV if you're taking this viewpoint that I wanted them both off the coalition because I only wanted 1 scum (myself) on the coalition and wanted to make a show of getting my partner off of it. Especially given I've cased DV much harder and had leniency with Klick, considering that he may be snowed by DV. Also with me wanting to lim DV before Klick, that's like the classic "my partner could be scum with X (X is actually town), but isn't as scummy as X so I want to flip X first" I feel like this is an unlikely conclusion given the evidence, how did you come to it?

As far as this being overjustified

idk, Appearance is who I was feeling the least confident in of my 5 prior to switching to Dragon's coalition. I kinda feel like his reads have been a little too easy. I wish DV were in instead of Klick tbh, would make this day a lot easier.

VOTE: Appearance

I was really tired and had a slightly stressful situation at my almost-always-stress-free job yesterday. I felt lost as to what to do because my tired brain just wanted to vote DV, and that's how it came out. There's at least 1 scum on this coalition we need to find before eliminating anyone on the outside.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm also kind of hoping Klick or like, maybe DV or kyouko (if they're town) will find me as town at some point because they're the only slots that it feels appealing to work with right now and I feel like i need help to make headway right now

I don't know if I've ever correctly read you with any amount of confidence in my own work. I just don't get how to do it and I rely on sheeping TRs to read you usually. I don't think we've played

that many

games together but there've certainly been a fair few over the years