Mini 2332: A Mid-scummer Nights Dream II | GG

[Silver Ravens]

Hey Aureal what do you think happened with the hider?

[Gimli]

gimli town, may revisit

[Prism]

Hey Aureal what do you think happened with the hider?

She literally just made a large post about this.

[Silver Ravens]

Before anything let's try to look for who DE hid behind shall we? If klick that would suck. I'm going to iso now.

I'm pretty sure it was just Klick, yes. I've looked at Dragon's ISO and he clearly was getting skeptical of Klick but still wanting to townread him.

Virtually none, haven't gone indepth on Aureal. Klick is unimpressive this game, virtually every read I've disagreed with.

It's really weird because I agree with you about disagreeing about Klick's every read. I have no fucking clue why he's town reading me all of a sudden.

There's a world where Prism is town and Klick is scum huh

Like
His scumread of me was bad
But his townread of me is even worse??? He's townreading me for extremely stupid reasons, and it's possible he's just scum and decided to townread me because I'm a vocal voice this game and he knows doing it will get him TR'd by Gimli.

Damn am I going to have to tryhard this game

That's so sad

It's gonna be funny if Prism ends up being a townread of mine

But also kinda scary because I would have no idea in that scenario where to look for scum

So it looks like his gut and his head were disagreeing and he impulsively decided to target Klick so he could feel good about Klick being town again. Maybe he was thinking of targeting me earlier and that's why he said what he said, or maybe he wasn't even thinking about the implication at all, but

I

know he didn't end up doing that. After what he did in Death Note it should be clear that Dragon does not think through and carefully plan what he's doing to avoid egregious mistakes like this.

OK. What are you referring to in Death Note that Dragon did?

[Prism]

i thought that prism would know how i emotionally would respond to me making 624 and having lots of fun etc and making a read and then being told unspecifically that it was awful. it wouldn't make me intellectually and rationally revisit it, it would just make me lose confidence and feel dejected, which is more or less what happened

The dejection was expected. It's why I found the returned vote questionable as a display of self-confidence. The unvote gave you time to circle back, and I did not like seeing the read go undeveloped. Night phase mostly assuaged my concern.

[Aureal]

@aureal: what did dragon do in death note? I think I forgot

I was talking about the whole thing where he basically outted the detective by not paying attention to what he was doing, which I explained after the game was why I targeted his slot to investigate, which then confused everyone into clearing you.

For those not in the game, the detective was the town flagbearer: when they die, town has one more day to catch the scum flagbearer or they lose. Dan was the assistant, who knew the detective's identity and tried to let him know by crumbing at him. After Dan got pressured and claimed to be PR, Dragon asked Dan if he had crumbed (a horrible thing to ask rather than just look for himself given that Dan had actually crumbed the IDENTITY of the detective in a not-so-subtle way). Dan shot him down, and Dragon didn't pay attention to that as a warning sign at all. He didn't take the hint that there was indeed crumbing, and proceeded to lead a flashwagon on the detective's slot with just a few hours to deadline, forcing Dan to essentially out the detective's identity plainly to avoid him actually getting voting out. It was an easily avoidable disaster for town, because Dragon ran with his gut instead of paying attention to details.

[Gimli]

everybody knew who the detective was, aureal. DE didn't misplay anywhere near as badly as you're suggesting here and it feels like you're just throwing a narrative to try escaping the implications of his death

I also sincerely believe now after re-reading and remembering dragon's d1 that he would hide behind you and expect us to know what it meant if he woke up dead

[Prism]

I reread Kirigiri's points about Hu Tao. I think 650 does a lot of work to cast each post in a bad light, for example calling 583 an emotional overreaction instead of very plain. This could be a simple stylistic choice, but it made the case uncompelling.

In contrast, this post is very rough.

One of these [Hu Tao claim] scenarios requires extreme creativity and out-of-the-box thinking because it is

unique to this specific game's

VT PM. The other scenario is that someone literally just doesn't know if they're a backup PR or not because it's not obvious from the PM.

Not really. its super easy to perform as you dont get anything about game, your own role pm, the general mafia games at all (cause everyone knows in almost all games a sample role pm is posted) and it was well into them trying to appear as they are lost entirely

Maybe I'm just the type to give so much credit to people when its not deserved but I explained why I thought their entire being lost thingy was a performance before in a large wall post and I'm not gonna go over that again.

This post claims that it's very easy for scum to look at the sample PM, realize it can be ambiguously a PR or VT PM, and create a corresponding play around that ambiguity. I'm already skeptical, because hypothetically possible is a world away from likely, but Kirigiri represents this as being mostly answered it in 650.

650 makes a big show of doubting the "feeling lost" act very broadly, which is fine. This goes further than 650 ever did.

In 650, Kirigiri is disturbed,

in general

, by Hu Tao's show of confusion.

Err what's the VT of this game called?

this isnt being lost from game. This is acting as they are lost entirely from mafia games overall.

The problem is that Hu Tao wasn't just lost in general. Her confusion over her VT role

uniquely arises

from the VT's backup dreamer ability. Faking this requires much greater scum creativity.

It's fine to miss this nuance in 650 and when voting. But 855 retroactively dismisses the critical distinction even when highlighted.

[Aureal]

669 is less fine. Gimli getting lock town status is quite premature. A big undeserved jump from a mild townread previously. Needs expansion.

I explained this at the time. Gimli came up with a wild theory about Catgirls and I being scum together because Catgirls made a nonsensical comment including me with the hyperposters when I was actually a low poster. Gimli thought "oh maybe Aureal is actually posting a lot in the scum PT and so Catgirls has a warped sense of how much Aureal has posted and slipped in the game thread when talking about her posting habits!" Thinking that someone has made a PT slip like that is a very towny thought process, because scum would have to be highly creative to think in a way that enables them to envision town using the scum PT, and I've used it to correctly locktown people before. And the games were lost in the end because people wouldn't listen to me about the read. x.x

That Chipotle accusation comes in a bit fast. Based off 3rd on wagon? Despite being on the CW it does not feel to me like normal wagon analysis applies here as Hu was largely a consensus read aside from Klick or Prism signing on.

The wagon placement had nothing to do with the accusation, no. I was just townreading most of the other slots more, and Catgirls has mostly just been a big question mark to me. (Side note: was I wrong about who was posting there? Does everyone else know which of them is posting? )

[ActionDan]

Of the dreams absolutely 100% should be Superman and Parts. For the 3rd I'd like to avoid a flooding house and pitchworks (nothing good ever comes from turning on the mod). DnD favorite spell sounds like wild fireball or something which I dunno how that would play out but I think I prefer it over the one with "EVERYBODY" and "hate". I do love Trig and math can't kill you so maybe it's not that terrible, but best to avoid too.

At this point in time it looks like I'm the only one but I still think Sunflower is scum originally posited in 671.

Sunflower has produced a lot of words on Gimli but it doesn't quite pack the oomph they might think. Yes Gimli is typically a more cautious perhaps even less flighty player as town whose reads are detailed in paragraphs rather than sentences but that is insufficient alone to think he is playing in style so much differently here. There's a few accusations scattered over a few wall posts. Gimli playing positionally, Gimli buttering up townreads, Gimli too easily making townreads and reads in general being too fluid. All that is circumstantial evidence. I can maybe see this applied to Gimli's Catgirls read which has changed from Scum to town to scum again could create whiplash, but if we look at Gimli's attitude towards me and towards sunflower I don't think Sunflower does a good job addressing either or is purposely omitting detail they don't think is important. Sunflower jumps on Gimli for going along with Klick's reasoning for finding me town due to my dream thoughts. I agree that's not the strongest reasoning, I likely would have given the same opinions as scum, but that's only about 1/3 of the reason Gimli gave for reversing his opinion. More problematic is the inability to address Gimli's change of heart with regard to Sunflower themselves. As presented you might think Gimli only did so on a whim to bolster a narrow POE of scum candidates after finding the rest of the game towny. But more than just switching the read because "a few people started suspecting Sunflower's slot" Gimli was specific that he liked my case against them. So if Sunflower wanted to show that Gimli was only frivolously and fluidly changing his reads to serve a scum agenda it would behoove Sunflower to tear that case apart. They do not. The only times it has been addressed was by Jupiter who only attacked it on its weakest point regarding their use of "rancid vibes" in relation to Prism which was imo over the top but fair enough. The promise to come back to it by Jupiter was not fulfilled and I don't think Fire has ever even acknowledged it. Considering their vote was on me before Gimli ignoring it doubly does not make sense and makes me wonder if they are making a calculation to do so and not enter that mire (or perhaps they simply can't answer sufficiently well).

In the exchanges between Prism and Sunflower I can parse somewhat of the 4d chess they use to read each other though I can only extract a sense that Prism is town from it. My related takeaway is that Jupiter not immediately owning up to being the impetus behind the vote in 627 is bizarre if the series of events happened according to Jupiter which makes me think it very much did not happen that way and that Fire's "private thoughts" were the only ones influencing that vote. In any case if Jupiter's memory seems good enough to recall the details of how the vote in 627 came to be I'm pretty skeptical that Jupiter who has admitted to knowing Fire scumread Gimli in 624, later forgets and wonders why the slot is voting him at EoD despite Fire's often expressed scumread there, and then feels confident enough to throw out 830 (bonus there's a mention of Fire's readlist at the time of the vote on Prism) , and then posts 954 and 957. This doesn't add up to me.

I asked about 830 recently to see how Jupiter got from Aureal null to Aureal scum and the answer is basically another instance of memory loss and gut. Assuming this is also the case with the Gimli scumread expressed in the same post then there really is absolutely no consistency with Jupiter's reads ever which are all based on gut.

Aureal being scum fits just fine with Sunflower scum. From Aureal's side, I think she hasn't really spewed anyone (even Ydrasse) as town or scum so far. From Sunflower's side aside from what I've said about Jupiter, Fire had a "Aureal push is bad vibes" stance and I think that was it.

I also did read over Catgirls and post my analysis later after some more review.

[Aureal]

everybody knew who the detective was, aureal. DE didn't misplay anywhere near as badly as you're suggesting here and it feels like you're just throwing a narrative to try escaping the implications of his death

You mean

after

Dan told them not to wagon him? Four townies voted the detective in quick succession there, and Klick even made it clear the next day that he still hadn't figured out who the detective was in spite of all that.

You can say it's a narrative all you like, I don't blame you for it. I'm just frustrated with Dragon here and I can't even really talk to

him

about it now. You're just gonna have to see my flip to accept my reasoning on what happened, I expect, which is disappointing but I'll try to do what I can in the meanwhile.

[Sunflower]

In any case if Jupiter's memory seems good enough to recall the details of how the vote in 627 came to be

perhaps the reason why i remember exactly what happened was because fire and i had extensive conversation that night about our post and then prism????? i think there's a very logical flow between "i'm going back to dms to check" - > long explanation of what happened
ur actually full of shit

[ActionDan]

@aureal: what did dragon do in death note? I think I forgot

I was talking about the whole thing where he basically outted the detective by not paying attention to what he was doing, which I explained after the game was why I targeted his slot to investigate, which then confused everyone into clearing you.

For those not in the game, the detective was the town flagbearer: when they die, town has one more day to catch the scum flagbearer or they lose. Dan was the assistant, who knew the detective's identity and tried to let him know by crumbing at him. After Dan got pressured and claimed to be PR, Dragon asked Dan if he had crumbed (a horrible thing to ask rather than just look for himself given that Dan had actually crumbed the IDENTITY of the detective in a not-so-subtle way). Dan shot him down, and Dragon didn't pay attention to that as a warning sign at all. He didn't take the hint that there was indeed crumbing, and proceeded to lead a flashwagon on the detective's slot with just a few hours to deadline, forcing Dan to essentially out the detective's identity plainly to avoid him actually getting voting out. It was an easily avoidable disaster for town, because Dragon ran with his gut instead of paying attention to details.

While I sympathize because that was incredibly annoying at the time, not following through with his crumb this game would be tantamount to throwing it. I iso'd backwards and nothing is on the level of the crumb he gave about targeting you. Before I got there the only thing remotely close was the post on Prism "It'd be funny if Prism became a townread of mine. It's Scary..." Etc. I cannot entertain the possibility.

[Sunflower]

maybe the reason why i remember a lot about prism is perhaps because fire talked to me about her and about her style of play while we were formulating our read on her.... and that's why i know what happened about the vote? and what we felt about prism? and perhaps, the reason why I had forgotten why we were voting gimli was because fire kept me in the dark on his reasons behind that push, which is why i said i in 624 that i was mostly leaving stuff on gimli up to fire?

[Sunflower]

bonus there's a mention of Fire's readlist at the time of the vote on Prism)

that was my own readlist but ok

[ActionDan]

In any case if Jupiter's memory seems good enough to recall the details of how the vote in 627 came to be

perhaps the reason why i remember exactly what happened was because fire and i had extensive conversation that night about our post and then prism????? i think there's a very logical flow between "i'm going back to dms to check" - > long explanation of what happened
ur actually full of shit

Sure you're not projecting here?

pedit: if that was your readlist then why did you forget scumreading Gimli.

[Sunflower]

there really is absolutely no consistency with Jupiter's reads

cry about it

[Sunflower]

In any case if Jupiter's memory seems good enough to recall the details of how the vote in 627 came to be

perhaps the reason why i remember exactly what happened was because fire and i had extensive conversation that night about our post and then prism????? i think there's a very logical flow between "i'm going back to dms to check" - > long explanation of what happened
ur actually full of shit

Sure you're not projecting here?

pedit: if that was your readlist then why did you forget scumreading Gimli.

because I literally did not know what post you were talking about at the time, when you asked me? Forgetting our scumread on gimli happened before that point btw lol

[Sunflower]

I'm really not sure what timeline you're operating on here

[Prism]

I don't think fireisredsir at least is out of range. I just don't feel as strongly as I did previously. 911 was a plausible thought process and I thought the vote clarification from Jupiter was +town because it was completely unnecessary.

[Sunflower]

You ask me, dropping a random number, hey why is aureal/gimli partnered here, I say I don't know the post but probably gut

[Sunflower]

i'm not gonna go back 300 posts just to answer a question about something that probably doesnt matter because i dropped a read that i felt at the time liek I clearly dont think gimli and aureal are partnered anymore???

[Gimli]

everybody knew who the detective was, aureal. DE didn't misplay anywhere near as badly as you're suggesting here and it feels like you're just throwing a narrative to try escaping the implications of his death

You mean

after

Dan told them not to wagon him? Four townies voted the detective in quick succession there, and Klick even made it clear the next day that he still hadn't figured out who the detective was in spite of all that.

You can say it's a narrative all you like, I don't blame you for it. I'm just frustrated with Dragon here and I can't even really talk to

him

about it now. You're just gonna have to see my flip to accept my reasoning on what happened, I expect, which is disappointing but I'll try to do what I can in the meanwhile.

you're giving me pause rn

if you're town it would be absolutely horrible to flip you

I'll keep an open mind

also @AD: consider yourself a double voter. I'll sheep you for the rest of game. you wanna flip sunflower, lets flip sunflower. clearly you have the better grasp of this thing.

[Sunflower]

I thought the vote clarification from Jupiter was +town because it was completely unnecessary.

it's neccesary to me ok.

[Sunflower]

also @AD: consider yourself a double voter. I'll sheep you for the rest of game. you wanna flip sunflower, lets flip sunflower. clearly you have the better grasp of this thing.

do you even scumread me