Mini Normal 2334: trees (Day 6)

[Elements]

Bloop

[Elements]

If we vote anyone it should be someone key to extending the DP and who is voting without a good reason.

Vote me then

[Grovyle in a Fedora]

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position. PRs don't play the game for town in any sense. Setup balance in normals are contingent on day play helping town, and possible guilties are always considerations. I don't think I can point at any properly reviewed setup in the past 2 years and say "yeah no elimination would have granted good info here over playing out day 1"

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position.

Protection roles should default to whoever X is, even if X may be scum, during the DP1 no-elim, as that's optimal. I didn't want to clarify that in hopes it was simply how the instincts of any in that role (not excluding myself being that role, clarifying regardless) would go.

Idc what the scum members say so I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect but I have to obey it as conforming to Town members you disagree with is part of the game.

scum are against no elim because town is lol.

[Elements]

@Rational
I'm going to take your thought process to an extreme, just for you.
Let's have a hypothetical 13 player game with the following roles:
Mafia Roleblocker
1-shot Mafia Doctor
Mafia Goon

Town Cop
Town 1-shot vigilante
Town 2-shot doctor
7xVT

Day 1
We all collectively decide to vote no-lim as fast as possible. In fact, the first 7 posts of the game are to vote for no elimination and we go to the night phase with nothing having been said. All good so far?

Night 1
Mafia kill a random VT
Mafia throw out a random roleblock, cool. It hits a VT and nothing happens
Cop checks someone at random and find out they're town. Horay information!
Vig and Doc decide not to use their abilities.

Day 2
The cop decides they don't want to claim anything just yet, after all they can only confirm one player as town and if they claim now it's likely they could die in the night phase.
So for 8 out the remaining 9 town players we have exactly the same sceario as in day 1, minus one town member. What do we talk about now? There is no public information availible to us so anything we do will be random and based on nothing. Probably best to vote no-lim here in case the things we say out our valuable PRs.
The day ends with no elimination

Night 2
Mafia kill another VT
Mafia roleblock a random person, lets say the doctor this time
Vigi still doesn't know who to shoot so doesn't pick anyone
Doctor decides to wait again making the Mafia PR action useless
Cop checks the VT the mafia happen to kill that night

Day 3
Exactly the same situation as Day 2 but with one less town member again.

I think you can see where this is headed.

Please explain to me how your reasoning for no lim day 1 cannot be applied to day 2 and beyond if the PRs are gated or do not want to claim for whatever reason they might have.

[Elements]

elements voting rational on it seems opportunistic imo

have a quick skim of my day 1 isos from other games I've played
They're all in my sig

[KayJayQueue]

Okay Elements putting that much effort into that explanation is giving me town vibes for sure. I don’t see why scum would argue that hard annd in depth against something that could help them just to “appear” town. I won’t be voting Elements D1 unless something spectacularly scummy comes from her which I don’t anticipate.

[Elements]

I won’t be voting Elements D1 unless something spectacularly scummy comes from her which I don’t anticipate.

just gimmi some time xx

[KayJayQueue]

I won’t be voting Elements D1 unless something spectacularly scummy comes from her which I don’t anticipate.

just gimmi some time xx

I’d actually be really funny if you did something that pinged me so hard that I did a 180 like “get her outttt!!! I’ll drive the bus!!!!” lol

[tris]

VC 1.04

Thomith (3):

camelCasedSnivy 61, DrNickRiviera 114, Elements 171

Grovyle in a Fedora (1):

SaltiestCactus23 23

DrNickRiviera (1):

Dannflor 66

Hu Tao (1):

KayJayQueue 13

No Elimination (1):

RationalMadman 42

Elements (1):

Grovyle in a Fedora 185

Not Voting:

Hu Tao, awesomeming327, Gibdo, Thomith 110[post], DrippingGoofball [post]131

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Deadline:

(expired on 2024-04-17 20:15:00)

notes: my picture

[Elements]

What I'd do instead is say we keep talking and gang on people as 3 to 4 to pressure them. It can be me, it can be others. Nobody should react until 3 to 4 votes are on them in a setup this big, not on DP1.

Idc what the scum members say so I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect but I have to obey it as conforming to Town members you disagree with is part of the game.

You say wagons of 3 or 4 are the only ones that matter.
You say you will conform to the town in that everyone other than you want to vote people.
You have a list of 4 people you think are red team.

So why are you still not voting any of the 2 player wagons to make them up to 3 players?

All you are doing is clogging up the thread with "analysis" everyone else disagrees with yet you continue to talk about almost nothing else. Making it easy for the red team to hide behind that being the big thing of the day. You have the most posts of any of us.
You gave a reads list that no one asked you to do even though it goes against everything you have said about day 1.
You are simply hypocritical in what you say versus your actions.

VOTE: RationalMadman

[Elements]

I won’t be voting Elements D1 unless something spectacularly scummy comes from her which I don’t anticipate.

just gimmi some time xx

I’d actually be really funny if you did something that pinged me so hard that I did a 180 like “get her outttt!!! I’ll drive the bus!!!!” lol

while you're here can i ask about your thought's on thomith?

[RationalMadman]

What I'd do instead is say we keep talking and gang on people as 3 to 4 to pressure them. It can be me, it can be others. Nobody should react until 3 to 4 votes are on them in a setup this big, not on DP1.

Idc what the scum members say so I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect but I have to obey it as conforming to Town members you disagree with is part of the game.

You say wagons of 3 or 4 are the only ones that matter.
You say you will conform to the town in that everyone other than you want to vote people.
You have a list of 4 people you think are red team.

So why are you still not voting any of the 2 player wagons to make them up to 3 players?

All you are doing is clogging up the thread with "analysis" everyone else disagrees with yet you continue to talk about almost nothing else. Making it easy for the red team to hide behind that being the big thing of the day. You have the most posts of any of us.
You gave a reads list that no one asked you to do even though it goes against everything you have said about day 1.
You are simply hypocritical in what you say versus your actions.

VOTE: RationalMadman

Idk if this is your version of gaslighting or something but I clarified why I want to wait until DP2 to do said pressuring multiple times including a time you quoted which was a reply to you.

[RationalMadman]

@Rational
I'm going to take your thought process to an extreme, just for you.
Let's have a hypothetical 13 player game with the following roles:
Mafia Roleblocker
1-shot Mafia Doctor
Mafia Goon

Town Cop
Town 1-shot vigilante
Town 2-shot doctor
7xVT

Day 1
We all collectively decide to vote no-lim as fast as possible. In fact, the first 7 posts of the game are to vote for no elimination and we go to the night phase with nothing having been said. All good so far?

Night 1
Mafia kill a random VT
Mafia throw out a random roleblock, cool. It hits a VT and nothing happens
Cop checks someone at random and find out they're town. Horay information!
Vig and Doc decide not to use their abilities.

Day 2
The cop decides they don't want to claim anything just yet, after all they can only confirm one player as town and if they claim now it's likely they could die in the night phase.
So for 8 out the remaining 9 town players we have exactly the same sceario as in day 1, minus one town member. What do we talk about now? There is no public information availible to us so anything we do will be random and based on nothing. Probably best to vote no-lim here in case the things we say out our valuable PRs.
The day ends with no elimination

Night 2
Mafia kill another VT
Mafia roleblock a random person, lets say the doctor this time
Vigi still doesn't know who to shoot so doesn't pick anyone
Doctor decides to wait again making the Mafia PR action useless
Cop checks the VT the mafia happen to kill that night

Day 3
Exactly the same situation as Day 2 but with one less town member again.

I think you can see where this is headed.

Please explain to me how your reasoning for no lim day 1 cannot be applied to day 2 and beyond if the PRs are gated or do not want to claim for whatever reason they might have.

I never ever said DP2 is a no-lim. Ever.

[RationalMadman]

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position. PRs don't play the game for town in any sense. Setup balance in normals are contingent on day play helping town, and possible guilties are always considerations. I don't think I can point at any properly reviewed setup in the past 2 years and say "yeah no elimination would have granted good info here over playing out day 1"

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position.

Protection roles should default to whoever X is, even if X may be scum, during the DP1 no-elim, as that's optimal. I didn't want to clarify that in hopes it was simply how the instincts of any in that role (not excluding myself being that role, clarifying regardless) would go.

Idc what the scum members say so I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect but I have to obey it as conforming to Town members you disagree with is part of the game.

scum are against no elim because town is lol.

What kind of logic is that? I don't even understand how it's a reply to me.

[RationalMadman]

If we vote anyone it should be someone key to extending the DP and who is voting without a good reason.

Vote me then

If you are going to force it I eventually will. Until it's genuinely me vs you, I have to wait to see what happens. I am not eager to force you to claim, it benefits Scum even if you claim and are CC'd and are scum yourself. I need to wait to see others react and get a proper final decision on who I'm voting. Rushing to pressure you is antitown as hell from my perspective. You are too bloodthirsty too fast.

[Elements]

If we vote anyone it should be someone key to extending the DP and who is voting without a good reason.

Vote me then

If you are going to force it I eventually will. Until it's genuinely me vs you, I have to wait to see what happens. I am not eager to force you to claim, it benefits Scum even if you claim and are CC'd and are scum yourself. I need to wait to see others react and get a proper final decision on who I'm voting. Rushing to pressure you is antitown as hell from my perspective. You are too bloodthirsty too fast.

I'm VT
Bam
Claimed
I'm you're easy roll over and die VT claim that is your supposed best option to vote out day 1

[Elements]

What kind of logic is that? I don't even understand how it's a reply to me.

Red team are saying they want an elimination becasue so is everyone else to fit in

[Elements]

Please explain to me how your reasoning for no lim day 1 cannot be applied to day 2 and beyond if the PRs are gated or do not want to claim for whatever reason they might have.

I never ever said DP2 is a no-lim. Ever.

Answer my quesiton please

[RationalMadman]

So you're not saying no lim day 1 is good for town, you're saying it's the less bad of two options?

Mafia gain a lot more from everything involved leading up to it than Town do, this is solely counteracted if Town hit the jackpot and vote off the most powerful of the Mafia. Even if Town hit Mafia and don't hit the roleblocker or equivalent active-role type of Scum, they've merely cancelled out the disadvantage, it depends how you 'weigh' things and how long you believe Scum can survive.

We know nothing about the setup if we are Town, except our own role (but a PR can intuit at least 2-3 plausible Mafia roles to counteract their role). Scum know more. Town won't work out more from what proceeds DP1 than they could have had they just shut up, rushed to no-eliminate and let PRs do what they do. Of course this can have bad luck outcomes, so be it is what I say. The Scum is more, not less, likely to hit right on their night phase powers the more that we interact and leak.

[Elements]

So you're not saying no lim day 1 is good for town, you're saying it's the less bad of two options?

Mafia gain a lot more from everything involved leading up to it than Town do, this is solely counteracted if Town hit the jackpot and vote off the most powerful of the Mafia. Even if Town hit Mafia and don't hit the roleblocker or equivalent active-role type of Scum, they've merely cancelled out the disadvantage, it depends how you 'weigh' things and how long you believe Scum can survive.

We know nothing about the setup if we are Town, except our own role (but a PR can intuit at least 2-3 plausible Mafia roles to counteract their role). Scum know more. Town won't work out more from what proceeds DP1 than they could have had they just shut up, rushed to no-eliminate and let PRs do what they do. Of course this can have bad luck outcomes, so be it is what I say. The Scum is more, not less, likely to hit right on their night phase powers the more that we interact and leak.

I'm not asking for an explinaiton, can you give me as yes/no answer please

[RationalMadman]

Please explain to me how your reasoning for no lim day 1 cannot be applied to day 2 and beyond if the PRs are gated or do not want to claim for whatever reason they might have.

I never ever said DP2 is a no-lim. Ever.

Answer my quesiton please

On DP2 the investigate PR or PRs, depending if it's 1 or 2, will have either a result or a roleblock or be nightkilled. At this point unless both a nightkill happened and no living person has a result, there's minimum one useful thing (unless the result is on the dead other PR) for the Town to work with and take as a 'formation' of how to proceed the day phase. Either there's an objective clear to lead or a CC or indirect CC as a similar role claims and reveals the result. From there, there's then a much clearer way to divide people and read voting patterns later etc. I am having to reveal so much now to stop scum slipping how they would have in the no-elim series of events that it's becoming less optimal to do it anyway as they're going to split votes DP2 and realise what I'm looking for more and more as well as abuse what's leaked to them DP1 to the maximum capacity as I didn't want them to realise things such as that they can realise who most don't trust to decide who to frame etc.

[RationalMadman]

So you're not saying no lim day 1 is good for town, you're saying it's the less bad of two options?

Mafia gain a lot more from everything involved leading up to it than Town do, this is solely counteracted if Town hit the jackpot and vote off the most powerful of the Mafia. Even if Town hit Mafia and don't hit the roleblocker or equivalent active-role type of Scum, they've merely cancelled out the disadvantage, it depends how you 'weigh' things and how long you believe Scum can survive.

We know nothing about the setup if we are Town, except our own role (but a PR can intuit at least 2-3 plausible Mafia roles to counteract their role). Scum know more. Town won't work out more from what proceeds DP1 than they could have had they just shut up, rushed to no-eliminate and let PRs do what they do. Of course this can have bad luck outcomes, so be it is what I say. The Scum is more, not less, likely to hit right on their night phase powers the more that we interact and leak.

I'm not asking for an explinaiton, can you give me as yes/no answer please

A good option is the less bad of 2 options, you're asking a trick question.

[Thomith]

I feel like being able to analyse how wagons are formed or deformed during the day is more beneficial in the long run for us than speed no limming, where mafia get a kill, and town may also not use their PRs correctly, as they don't have anything to base their choices off of.

When we start getting flips, seeing how wagons formed and deformed does provide us information we can use to help solve the game.

[Elements]

Please explain to me how your reasoning for no lim day 1 cannot be applied to day 2 and beyond if the PRs are gated or do not want to claim for whatever reason they might have.

I never ever said DP2 is a no-lim. Ever.

Answer my quesiton please

At this point unless both a nightkill happened and no living person has a result

What happens iday 2 in this scenario?

[RationalMadman]

If we vote anyone it should be someone key to extending the DP and who is voting without a good reason.

Vote me then

If you are going to force it I eventually will. Until it's genuinely me vs you, I have to wait to see what happens. I am not eager to force you to claim, it benefits Scum even if you claim and are CC'd and are scum yourself. I need to wait to see others react and get a proper final decision on who I'm voting. Rushing to pressure you is antitown as hell from my perspective. You are too bloodthirsty too fast.

I'm VT
Bam
Claimed
I'm you're easy roll over and die VT claim that is your supposed best option to vote out day 1

You have helped Scum narrow down PRs massively by what you just did (unless you are Scum obviously). I am struggling to not violate the insult rule at this point. I'm not replying to you anymore.