Mini Normal 2334: trees (Day 6)

[Dannflor]

hu tao felt the need the back up her RationalMadman town read with something more substantial because she was being called out for TMIing the read, so she went and looked at a game or said she did but didn't actually critically think about whether RationalMadman's meta is indicative of anything for this game

[RationalMadman]

I quickly skimmed through a RM game just in case where he was scum and yeah he is different here.

you found one that wasn't a replace in?
I had a look and he's different in every game on this site

He replaced into the one I read

Did you look at the town games? They're just as different

They were also years ago.

I feel like my play as town and scum is wildly different to when I last played in 2011/2012.

Yeah sorry that was kinda my point
The past town games are just as different as the past red games so looking at any of them doesn't really tell us anything

While I was worse and less good at staying properly level-headed back then than I am now, it is a massive compliment you saying and meaning this (though if you are scum it may be untrue).

I do doubt that it's meant as a compliment but it is. This is the apex dream of a competent mafia player, to not have to lurk to achieve that but actively participate in games and be unreadable relatively. That being said, I do have tells I think. I tend to fundamentally tunnel more as Town (as opposed to just incidentally tunneling while not pushing as hard for the person I'm voting) as scum. Now that I've said that you can be sure I'll adjust it in future games if there are any.

[RationalMadman]

" (as opposed to just incidentally tunneling while not pushing as hard for the person I'm voting) as scum. "

The ) is meant to be after 'as scum' not before it after 'voting'.

[RationalMadman]

For any interested here are my updated reads. This time I'll do it as groupings rather than just eliminating players from my scumpile and exploring the rest.

To avoid mod's eye getting caught by the message, I will use italics instead of Bold for the Titles.

Strong Town

• Hu Tao (the snowball nature of her tryharding this game vs not caring at all and defending me among other things when I see 0 scum motive to do so in the situation as well as her eagerness to push on Dannflor and keep pushing make me strongly townread her).

• Grovyle (I can't fully explain this one in 'true logic' but there is something about the combination of not giving a damn yet giving a damn about things that actually matter that is adding up to be a very strong Town vibe)

It's crazy how weird the I think HTML-inspired bracketed coding here works. Many things are strange. I just had to individually format each player there as an individual bulletpoint list to make that happen.

Weak(er) Town

• Thomith (it began around exactly when the bandwagon on him escalated how he handled it and everything after, including significant paranoia that I had partner-framed him as Scum there, it's much more about his later posts than earlier posts in the DP)

• Dannflor (there is just something about how he's writing things, going about this an operating I feel he'd be annoyed with me as either alignment so him not faking that isn't the tell but he's using the anger to rush the DP and aggressively handle things, which is how Town tends to use anger unless they totally lurk or troll).

• camelCasedSnivy (out of the 3 people who made a proper wagon happen on Thomith, this was the first vote and best reasoned vote. There's also something to be said about Snivy's posts, I feel they accurately display talking to people to get things out of them rather than just posting for the sake of it)

• Gibdo, this is somewhat a gut/vibe read. I can't explain it very consciously in logic but there are tones in what he's saying, ways he went about things, the lack of letting go of voting me even when the wagon happened yet letting go when he rethought things and the fact I don't think he and his partner Awesomeming as a duo would lead on me. It isn't in the words he's saying but in things surrounding them and how he's gone about his lurky style.

Straight up can't read either at all or anymore (meaning they've both towntold and scumtold equally in the 'anymore' category)

Nickriviera, drippinggoofball, saltiestcactus

Everyone knows who my strongest scumread is. I've already justified it.

Those left are:

Elements and Black.

The problem is I do not believe it's a 3/3 thing to say it's Awesomeming, Elements and Black. This team feels wrong, I think the third is in my 3 nullreads instead and only 1 of Elements or Black is in the 3.

Black is not just scummy after replacing but I get significant psyche-read type hints that KJQ doesn't replace out there and then, not in that way not while actually leading on Hu Tao with a strong enough gutread as Town. It seems to me she didn't want to let her partners down, felt she couldn't bring her A game and replaced out.

However, I do see her doing that as Town as viable, especially if her feelings of negativity were stronger than she was letting on (not just struggling to get into the game but actively hating it). In fact if she was Town and felt Hu Tao, who I believe she has some history with based on interactions here, was scum and didn't feel good being on opposite sides on top of disliking the game there does seem to be reason to replace out as Town.

Elements has been antitown the entire DP in such overt ways I don't really know what to say. The problem is I know of players like this and they will absolutely do it as Town. Especially as she outed as vanilla Townie, it's got vibes of 'vote me off idgaf I am ready to rumble let's wagon everyone for the hell of it and ask RM to explain things over and over and over again for the lols'.

[Hu Tao]

I think Hu Tao would care more about being run up as town

Well this is false. I've self voted as town. Now you're just outing false reads. You've been in a game I've self voted. So now I know you're scum.

[Hu Tao]

For everyone else,

I'm so confident Naerys flips scum this game. Eliminate me and vote her out tomorrow. I agree with this.

VOTE: hu tao

She's contradicting herself. She does this as scum. She literally I'd saying the thing she did as town last game is now scummy when I do it.

This is the game I was town and self voted. To prove Dann is lying. He was IN this game. So he's just caught lying.

[Hu Tao]

Also, another thing. In this same game he said he didn't see the confidence I had in reads.

hu tao i'm struggling to believe your confidence in your notascum read is real

i don't understand the difference between notascum's entrance and KJQ's entrance for one

Yet this game he's saying he doesn't see the confidence I have in my RN read. If he was town he would have learned from these things and not tunnel and at least bring up this situation or think about it. He's just been tunneling mindlessly. This is not Town!Dann

[Hu Tao]

I mostly agree, but I'm not comfortable writing off Rational as obvious town. If he's experienced as he has repeatedly claimed, it's still very possible he's just causing a huge scene now to mitigate suspicions on him later.

I largely agree, and I've gone back and forth on Rational a bit myself

Right now, I've settled on him likely being town but I've had doubts

I think Hu Tao is expressing an unnatural amount of confidence because she *knows* Rational is town

Here from this game. Dann is not dumb, he knows what he's doing. If he was town he would reference this game or other games and have at least a little pause, but this game has been pretty much a tunnel and is very unlike town him.

[Hu Tao]

I've brought you all the evidence that Dann is scum this game, so can someone actually take it seriously. He's a good player, but he's been scummy in his contradicting

[Dannflor]

I think Hu Tao would care more about being run up as town

Well this is false. I've self voted as town. Now you're just outing false reads. You've been in a game I've self voted. So now I know you're scum.

this is exactly why I think your behavior this game is off

[Dannflor]

like the reason and emotion around why you self voted was because people weren't believing you and were suspecting you

conversely, in this game, you have a lot of bravado and seem to be trying to act like you don't care about the wagon on you

I think you'd care a lot more specifically because you cared more in that game

[Dannflor]

even now, I don't feel like you actually care about your scum read on me when you compare how you're behaving now versus how you behaved with your naerys scum read in that game

[Dannflor]

like where's the fire Hu Tao?

[Dannflor]

I'm sorry you rolled scum without me

[RationalMadman]

I've brought you all the evidence that Dann is scum this game, so can someone actually take it seriously. He's a good player, but he's been scummy in his contradicting

You are 5/7. You have to either out or vote with a wagon that can defeat yours. I am not budging, not onto Dann yet. I believe he is Town and is agitated and not thinking straight. If he is scum, I wholeheartedly buy the idea he's been what I've primarily seen Elements as and is the wagon blazer distracting from Awesomeming.

[RationalMadman]

like where's the fire Hu Tao?

For her to have more fire she'd have to be as assertive as I am and that's not her nature. She is being fiery, she's just failed to build a wagon on you. You're not scaling her fierceness or aggression to her personality type.

[RationalMadman]

If she was the type to bite your head off, she would be doing it right now. It's her version of fighting back what she's been doing to you Dan.

[RationalMadman]

For everyone else,

I'm so confident Naerys flips scum this game. Eliminate me and vote her out tomorrow. I agree with this.

VOTE: hu tao

She's contradicting herself. She does this as scum. She literally I'd saying the thing she did as town last game is now scummy when I do it.

This is the game I was town and self voted. To prove Dann is lying. He was IN this game. So he's just caught lying.

From what I understand, Dann is saying he thinks your panic and crack under this level of pressure as Town to the point you'd self-vote. He believes you resisting it this well is a scumtell, not the other way around.

[RationalMadman]

you'd not your

[Dannflor]

I don’t necessarily think Hu Tao would self vote again but I think there would be more passion or agitation behind her reaction to the whole gamestate


As it is 961 reads like false bravado

[RationalMadman]

I've brought you all the evidence that Dann is scum this game, so can someone actually take it seriously. He's a good player, but he's been scummy in his contradicting

There are some contradictions in his logic but they're deeper and beyond voting you off. He said I was wrong on everything this game yet I townread him early on. He's gone from playing it very safe and cautious to haphazardly voting on any wagon Elements gets on or encouraging her to join him and end up now on you. He is a very scummy player in that sense but I believe this is a playstyle thing he'd do as either alignment and this early into a DP1 I'm not willing to read very many past games just to land my vote on somebody, I'll skimread/scan if they're in a recent or current game but that's about it (the reasoning is to not waste effort on a player who may well end up nightkilled anyway as that's a waste of my time and energy to invest into unless I literally have no scumreads in the game itself left).

How about this. You give me games where he's been Town that you believe show he acts very differently as Town. I'll read some of his DP1 there.

[RationalMadman]

I do not want to fade hutao before getting dripping camel and salty to get a little more content in

Good news, I'm not being faded this game

Do you not find it strange that while saying this, Awesomeing is trying to campaign for votes on you such as here? :

Dr nick, what are you thoughts on hu tao? You said before that you scumread her right

[Elements]

VOTE: Dannflor

[DrNickRiviera]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Goofball

*poke*

God Dammit

I like this

VOTE: Goof

Why?

Combo of feeling better about Thomith, and wanting Goof to do more, they are being a bit too passive for my liking

I think Hu Tao would care more about being run up as town

I have only seen her get real fired when she was scum and being on the verge of a lim

[camelCasedSnivy]

im back