open 914: the coalition

[Moros]

coalition

comes from the Latin

coalescere

by way of French, meaning "unite, grow together, become one in growth". this in turn is an assimilation of

co-

, "together", with

alescere

, "be nourished".

[Moros]

i play bass.

[Moros]

it seems unfair to me that there's only 5 town members. it leaves them no room for error in forming their coalition. but i didn't design the setup

[Moros]

mmm.

[Moros]

i will nominate a person if and only if the person doesn't nominate themself

[Moros]

Or rather, what’s your thought process behind that idea? I’d like it if Moros could also answer this question.

tsawwassen is able to nominate themself while still abiding by their rule. i, however, cannot follow my own rule. this amendment came at implosion's suggestion.

[Moros]

well-highlighted.

[Moros]

cj+may early townreads.

may i ask what the meaning is behind your heal votes? if you do not townread myself and our friend, s 100% meaningless, which i will call them for short, as their legal name is cumbersome.

[Moros]

from an objective perspective, i think there is a 72% chance that there's scum in the band. from a subjective perspective, i think it's Black.

[Moros]

HEAL: implosion

[Moros]

from an objective perspective, i think there is a 72% chance that there's scum in the band. from a subjective perspective, i think it's Black.

Why do you think I'm scum?

i think you have felt the most like you want people to townread you.

[Moros]

mmm.

[Moros]

i don't agree that it's really good. it would be better if 105 didn't look like a conscious attempt at bait. it would be really good if it were more subtle.

[Moros]

you tried once already and it's a strange thing to bring up twice unless you have a motive for doing so.

[Moros]

once is okay but twice i think is intentional.

[Moros]

16 may makes a joke that the 4 members of the band are scum.
18 i respond to the joke saying that the setup is unfair with only 5 town.
19 black takes this seriously.

[Moros]

odd line of thought if you're townreading her for it.

[Moros]

i'm not confused on what she was thinking.

[Moros]

i always know what everyone is thinking. i can read minds. it's a burden, but it's useful for the game of mafia.

[Moros]

i agree. i am finding umlaut to be just as or more suspicious than black in this

[Moros]

HEAL: May

[Moros]

i agree. i am finding umlaut to be just as or more suspicious than black in this

Do you think we're partnered?

i don't know. i think it's less likely but possible.

[Moros]

The only thing bothering me about Moros here is that it doesn't seem interested in considering that I blunder setup talk as town a lot. I feel like me mentioning that should cause it to reconsider the read but it doesn't seem to care

it did cause me to reconsider.

[Moros]

I was also sort of quietly giving Black an opportunity to mess up if she was scum by acting like her earlier post

was

based on a misunderstanding of the setup, but I didn't seriously expect even scum!Black to make such a mistake so it doesn't mean much that she didn't take the bait. Still lean town but no more so than I already did.

i don't believe this

[Moros]

Do you, Moros, want people to townread you? Or is it more like, you think Black is trying too hard?

only if i deserve it. yes, at the start.

[Moros]

Actually, question for Moros: what do you think is Black's scum motivation to bring up the dumbtell again? You say you think she has a motivation, but I don't see why she would go out of her way as scum to lie about the setup misunderstanding, given that it isn't actually mechanically clearing for her even if she did have the misunderstanding. I think it's much simpler to think that she did misunderstand the setup (as town or as scum).

nobody bit on it the first time, so it didn't work. the second time it looked out of place and pushed to be more obvious for getting responses. it didn't feel like something town would say to me, because it felt unnecessary. i don't know if i think that still but i felt that way at the time.

[Moros]

Do you, Moros, want people to townread you? Or is it more like, you think Black is trying too hard?

only if i deserve it. yes, at the start.

Which posts?

the first 7

[Moros]

HURT: implosion

[Moros]

Okay. Umlaut is

hard

town. 125 is a townpost. The sort of audacity to call it out as what it would be + wanting to claim that there's absolutely no ambiguity to the townslip, comes from town dramatically more often. Scum kind of need to leave townslips as ambiguous things. But the even bigger thing to me is the statement about Black's self-respect; I feel like that's an angle scum would come up with to argue from extremely rarely.

i don't think this is true at all. scum who sees a town as you say townslip will know it's a townslip with no ambiguity. town who sees a town townslip will be unsure.

[Moros]

it felt that way to me.

[Moros]

131 is a joke that undermine its own arguments

it wasn't a joke.

[Moros]

the thing that i started to not like about implosion is that i think he seems very logical but some of the axioms that he is starting with in order to derive his reasonings feel too strained to be taken as given.

[Moros]

i think that mafia who wants to be seen as logical and correct but also wants to reach specific conclusions may employ such a strategy. he still seems good to me aside from that but it makes me more afraid to trust him.

[Moros]

HEAL: Tsawwassen

[Moros]

i read from the start and black is okay maybe

[Moros]

HEAL: Cutter B

[Moros]

tsawwassen 189 has i will call it unusual logic especially around black and may. but i think the messiness of it feels honest. cutter b seems lost in a town way to me.

[Moros]

ceejayvinoya i worry that he could be trying to look like he isn't trying to get townread. the passivity feels deliberate.

[Moros]

aventurine seems ok to me.

[Moros]

aventurine seems ok to me.

??????????

i think it hasn't done very much that feels more likely to be scum or more likely to be town. you don't agree?

[Moros]

i use "ok" to mean i am not townreading the person but i am setting them aside for now. it's more neutral. i don't think i agree with ceejayvinoya's approach to reading aventurine.

[Moros]

scum would want to get in the coalition and play in a way that will make people think they deserve to be in it. town would want to look for other town players and not let scum in the coalition.

[Moros]

i mean... you're not wrong

I just wish your answer was less mechanics related

nvm i guess

i can elaborate if the answer was inadequate. you asked for general and nonspecific. i don't think my answer was mechanics related, it's about how i expect players would play the game. they would exist with those minds and goals and their play would show signs of that.

[Moros]

HURT: Cutter B
HEAL: implosion

[Moros]

I would also like to be explicit here that I do not have a read on Aventurine right now. I'm not convinced that this line of argumentation is scummy. I understand why Black sees it that way but I don't really see it that way, at least not yet.

My feelings on the game as a whole right now are that I like myself, Umlaut, and then Moros/Black (less confidently than Umlaut) as coalition members; I want to find a fifth. I don't feel confident on anyone else right now; I don't like Tsawwassen at this moment but everyone else I'm sort of not really leaning strongly on at the moment.

Also an open question to people broadly: how do you feel about compromising? I feel like the current state of the game is very, people describing Their Coalition. It feels like there's relatively little working together to build cohesion - there's a bit in that Black came to agree with Tsawwassen but on the whole it feels a bit like in this gamestate people aren't going to compromise a whole lot. Which is totally fine right now given how much time we have until deadline but I just want to throw out there that, eventually, it will become less okay.

i think compromising is necessary.

[Moros]

HEAL: Black
HEAL: Moros

[Moros]

aventurine is hard for me to feel sure on. i think i follow its thought processes but i could also see them making sense from scum.

[Moros]

i liked black and implosion's reactions to it the most, they felt real to me, like they wanted to look for town. ceejay i am most suspicious of now i think.

[Moros]

This is the second time it feels like you're templatizing the game and then reading it instead of reading it. Aside from how it makes me skeptical of the outcomes it feels harder to read and that's frustrating

I don't think that complaint is universal though your Cutter B takes were fine

i felt this way earlier but i think now that he has good intentions.

[Moros]

may, how did you get to wanting to heal umlaut?

[Moros]

i liked black and implosion's reactions to it the most, they felt real to me, like they wanted to look for town. ceejay i am most suspicious of now i think.

spooky. care to expand or do I have to slowly draw it out of you

it felt like the way you were treating aventurine was from a goal of wanting it to be left out of the coalition and be seen as scum by others instead of trying to see if he is town. like you wanted to look like the winner of an argument. i think that's what scum would want to do.

[Moros]

This is the second time it feels like you're templatizing the game and then reading it instead of reading it. Aside from how it makes me skeptical of the outcomes it feels harder to read and that's frustrating

I don't think that complaint is universal though your Cutter B takes were fine

i felt this way earlier but i think now that he has good intentions.

Do you know what changed or will you just say "my feelings"

i don't think it's right of you to frame my feelings as insufficient. everything is based on feelings. my feelings changed because it felt like implosion just likes to view things in that manner, and the more recent times he did that, it didn't seem like he was stretching to reach a predetermined conclusion.

[Moros]

There was a lot of yapping!
I don't really dig the kind of yapping from May though... Feels like the empty posting that scum tends to make.

Warming up to an Aventurine townread. Particularly liked 306 where he opted to push for clarity as an outcome of the argument, rather than arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm still townreading implosion, Black and Moros, and I'm willing to stake the game on this read being correct.

For now I'll support any coalition without May or Cutter b. I'll exclude myself if we need to compromise.

i like this post.

[Moros]

HURT: May
HEAL: Aventurine

[Moros]

This is the second time it feels like you're templatizing the game and then reading it instead of reading it. Aside from how it makes me skeptical of the outcomes it feels harder to read and that's frustrating

I don't think that complaint is universal though your Cutter B takes were fine

i felt this way earlier but i think now that he has good intentions.

Do you know what changed or will you just say "my feelings"

i don't think it's right of you to frame my feelings as insufficient. everything is based on feelings. my feelings changed because it felt like implosion just likes to view things in that manner, and the more recent times he did that, it didn't seem like he was stretching to reach a predetermined conclusion.

Is there something about the list that made it seem like he was stretching the first time?
It's not that feelings aren't valid but you can townread people for breaking a post down and showing it as being indicative of something more than you can for them just taking different stances every few pages

i don't know if we're talking about the same first time. i meant his read on umlaut for the reaction to black misunderstanding the setup. that felt like a stretch to me because the logic didn't hold to me but he kept the read anyway.

[Moros]

may caught up to the point of seeing umlaut's most recent vote, and then in 392 and 393 went backwards and found something else to talk about from earlier. i think this could happen if she is scum and believes she needs to post more thoughts to get townread after seeing multiple people remove her from their coalitions.

[Moros]

it could also just be a thought she was chewing on and took some time to digest. or she wanted to reassess her coalition vote. i guess it isn't that unusual to take another look at things. the timing of it just made it feel to me like it was a second effort being made in response.

[Moros]

umlaut is a coconut

[Moros]

i don't want to converge on a coalition that has umlaut in it.

[Moros]

i thought may was the towniest player at first and i don't think she needed to try to position because she was in a good one. it felt like after she wasn't as townread anymore she started feeling some pressure to perform.

[Moros]

you mean on page 16 or before that?

16 yes

[Moros]

i think that tired person making the case that may is town while both of them are on the outskirts of being included in coalitions is more likely to be town behavior.

[Moros]

i think the only team that seems unlikely to me based on your logic is you and ceejay. i think ceejay might have fought harder to change things if that was the case, although he might also just wait for the replacement. may only recently lost standing. everyone besides ceejay and you have been in contention, i think.

[Moros]

Moros
implosion
Tsawwassen
Aventurine
Black
May
tired person
Umlaut
ceejayvinoya

[Moros]

I think at this precise point in time I'd be partial to myself, black, may, moros, aventurine.

i would be happy enough with this. of the four i am excluding, may is the one i'd be most okay with compromising on.

[Moros]

i still feel the same about tsawwassen's logical issue with black and may as i did when i first responded to it, and their explanation was satisfying to me. it feels like town messy logic to me.

[Moros]

the gently urging towards a consensus that doesn't include themself felt like town to me also. it could alternatively mean that they are partners with someone already in the consensus. however, in that case, it doesn't hurt to put them in.

[Moros]

ftr i slightly scumread implosion and umlaut and undecided about moros. i will make my cases later today.

i am interested in seeing these.

[Moros]

i am feeling worried about the consensus and the complacency more and more but i think i need to remember that the two people i think are most likely to be scum are absent.

[Moros]

why?

[Moros]

the deadline will be at least 72 hours after the last replacement fills

[Moros]

hey y'all how're we doing?

tenderly light the lips, and the shadow's golden
near the sunken eyes. here the night has sparked
this brilliant likeness — and from the dark night
only just one thing — the eyes — are growing dark.

[Moros]

i can't help but feel like the worst is tryharding in a scummy way and trying to push some agenda but at the same time i'm just not seeing what the agenda is, if that makes sense. perhaps it is just my natural sense of paranoia toward waterfowls which it is at play here.

my fear is that it feels like they are pulling at the threads that are the loosest.

[Moros]

what does that mean?

if there is a consensus, among everyone aside from yourself, of myself, implosion, and Black, Black is i think the easiest of those to not townread. if you look at the coalitions proposed by those three players, aventurine is the one inside with the least stable foundation.

[Moros]

the push against aventurine i think is the main example of what i refer to. aventurine on the surface can easily by framed as suspicious, and yet he is in many coalitions. it's a target. but i think that beneath the surface layer there is a town energy that town is more likely to see and scum is more likely to choose to ignore.

[Moros]

it is difficult not to like their posts, though. 572 and 594 are insightful, interesting, and provide a foundation of verisimilitude. but they are drawn from prior experience with these players, which means their veracity is unrelated to the color of the role drawn by the worst in this game.

[Moros]

i think that establishing oneself as an authority on implosion and may, and townreading them, and appealing to them that ceejayvinoya was towny and they should be able to see it, is a suspect sequence of actions, when viewed together.

[Moros]

HURT: Tsawwassen
HEAL: May

i think that if the worst is scum then they were more likely to be trying to appeal to a town May than push their partner May into the coalition.

[Moros]

I think at this precise point in time I'd be partial to myself, black, may, moros, aventurine.

Both for seeming political viability and generally it feeling pretty solid. It's excluding ceejay, tired person, umlaut, and tsawwassen. I need to muse some on Tsawwassen's recent posting though.

I see why you're attached to the Ave townread but I think swapping Tsawwa in there is pretty sound.

I also think, if mafia, Tsawwa is the vulnerable Mafioso who is most able to just like, slide into a coalition by being smooth and politically viable lol

this post scares me.

[Moros]

moros you give me the feeling you're unconcerned with who will be in the coalition and are just observing the game and commenting on things happening. why is that?

the latter is true but it doesn't imply the former. i think that i have been working to get the coalition that i believe gives us the best chance of winning.

[Moros]

would you support Moros, Black, implosion, May, tired person?

[Moros]

would you support Moros, Black, implosion, May, tired person?

i would, but i'm curious why you'd take me over tas

i asked because i wanted to see what the worst would say. if you follow the trail of his reads up to that point, he townleans everyone except aventurine and experience, and seems to think they are the team. i thought that he and tsawwassen could be the team. so i wondered how he would respond to a coalition that excluded those four.

[Moros]

his reaction was to be hesitant on it and then shift his reads in response so that he's now much more confident in tsawwassen being town and i assume no longer wants to exclude them. maybe so that he isn't put in those sorts of awkward positions anymore.

[Moros]

i think it's what the worst would likely do if that team were correct. i don't think it's the only possibility.

[Moros]

i still don't really scumread tsawwassen individually. maybe it's a mistake to try to guess the team already. experience/umlaut are more suspicious to me.

[Moros]

It's weird because sometimes I think it's like
A useful thing that is useful in the sense that if the person genuinely believes it and I can try to follow their thought process I could get a better bead on someone as town and that's good

And a useless thing because it's a 2%er
Sometimes people hit 2%ers but a 25%er is so astronomically easier. So so much.

i think there exists another vector on which it useful in this format because a scum team can lose right now if we pull the right sequence of levers.

[Moros]

Hot take it is a mistake to try to guess the exact team at this point

Fairly strongly agreed, I think my solve isn't experience/Aventurine as a team so much as 1-2 scum in experience/Aventurine and I wonder who im townreading incorrectly.

this makes more sense to me.

[Moros]

i think i understand what implosion was expressing about his read on umlaut because i am going through the same thing with my read on aventurine.

[Moros]

HEAL: implosion

Black, May, tired person, Moros, implosion

How do people feel about this coalition?

i think i would support this.

[Moros]

i think aventurine being okay with being left out makes sense only if it is scum with people who are in a very secure position. however, with the way that consensus has gotten shaken up lately, i don't know if there's anyone that qualifies.

[Moros]

i'm hunting for teams again but i'm not sure how to stop.

[Moros]

i'm hunting for teams again but i'm not sure how to stop.

Who keeps appearing in teams to you? & out of the players you're nervous about as deepwolf partners, who are the threats?

i don't know the answers to your questions so i will answer a different one that is hopefully related. a more accurate description of what is happening is that i am allowing the conditional of different partners to affect how i am interpreting the play of each individual. i don't know how to stop doing that because if i want to decide if someone is scum, i have to decide if they are playing to the scum win condition. and in order to weigh up if they are, i have to consider who their partner could be.

[Moros]

it's really interesting to me that the trajectory of black's thoughts has culminated in investigating the worst's response to a proposed coalition, which is the same coalition that i investigated the worst's response to a few pages ago. i think this both makes me townread black more and want the proposed coalition more.

[Moros]

i am not sure if it means anything in actual fact reality but it feels like it means something in an astrological way.

[Moros]

i think:

moros/implosion/black/may/aventurine
moros/implosion/black/may/tired person
moros/implosion/black/aventurine/tired person
moros/implosion/black/may/tsawwassen
moros/implosion/black/the worst/tsawwassen
moros/implosion/black/aventurine/tsawwassen
moros/implosion/may/aventurine/tired person
moros/implosion/may/aventurine/tsawwassen

[Moros]

t.9: the rest

[Moros]

the worst can probably join the band

[Moros]

1. i think that its thoughts make more sense being town thoughts than scum ones. that hasn't changed with its inactivity.
2. i think either you're scum who saw him in most people's coalitions and singled him out as an easy target to push out of the way to make room for scum, or scum saw you doing that and encouraged or went along. this happening affirms my read. it could be in part stubbornness but i believe in it.

[Moros]

the worst
implosion
Moros
Black
May
tired person

I'm fine with these people in the coalition

Why would Tsawwassen want to compromise when everyone in my suggested coalition is on his list here?

Time is running out! And there's seemingly a coordination issue. ..

what do you mean by this?

[Moros]

i don't understand why that's given as a reason to reject a coalition that has wide support.

[Moros]

HURT: aventurine
HEAL: tired person

3 votes

[Moros]

mmm.

[Moros]

the worst, does it concern you that experience is voting for this and aventurine has expressed support for it?

[Moros]

i'm okay with keeping my vote here.

[Moros]

well now it's definitely wrong.

[Moros]

i wasn't sure but i thought that if there was a worst and tsawwassen team then the worst's only option was to vote and hope it scared people off. and if he was town it was more likely he would be concerned by his scumreads supporting it.

[Moros]

now there's 3 people who aren't in the coalition voting for the coalition.

[Moros]

it's possible if it's the worst/aventurine but that pairing doesn't make sense to me.

[Moros]

well now it's definitely wrong.

Why does outside votes make it wrong?

Doesn't it already have "wide support"?

scum probably prefer not to lose the game.

[Moros]

the only way it isn't wrong is if experience or the worst are scum who voted for it to try to scare people away. i think that made sense to me when i thought it was the worst/tsawwassen, but since you hammered it that obviously isn't the case. i don't think the other possibilities make sense.

[Moros]

or. maybe you didn't realize you hammered.

[Moros]

it's a lot more possible if tsawwassen is scum who didn't realize they hammered and the "welp" is "we just lost".

[Moros]

the dawn has arrived.

[Moros]

coalition failing makes me think i was on the wrong path. i am worried about implosion because i think that he had the least drive to secure a winning coalition, or care about the details of it. it feels more like he didn't want things to be disrupted. i think he makes sense as a partner to aventurine, who also didn't want things to be disrupted.

[Moros]

I kind of imagine the natural flow of the game fmpov being for it to turn into a 1v1 between me and tired person while apparently (at least some) other people are more interested in looking elsewhere on the coalition. it's sort of an interesting potential dynamic

i'm surprised that you think this because i would be more surprised if anyone besides you thought this.

[Moros]

It's not town reading it's this idea that if you deal with transparent really readable slots later in the game it's fine

If you leave quieter or murkier play styles in the game it's harder

coalition mostly provided us with a group of players that all aren't murky. i think, at least. so i don't think this is a worry.

[Moros]

why do you think implosion would be happy to put may in the coalition if they are the team?

[Moros]

i think that's fair reasoning

[Moros]

i am finding it hard to trust any of the reads i had before this

[Moros]

yeah i think i would actually support that coalition, in that at this moment i think i'm willing to support any coalition with me/moros/black/may.

why?

[Moros]

i don't know if i agree with 965 anymore. if that helps.

[Moros]

i don't really understand how everyone else was able to reorient their view of the game so quickly but i still think you're all town and i don't know how to fix that.

[Moros]

obviously they are not. but im not sure how to tell where i was wrong.

[Moros]

ill try to reread with a fresh mind tomorrow.

[Moros]

VOTE: May

[Moros]

It is admittedly "hard to post analytical content" about Moros when it played normally d0 and is at the keyboard afk this phase
It'd be a better lim than tired person since it's possible for scum to be comfortable with the weird day zero game mode but get uncomfortable needing to fake scumreads

i don't like this because it is taking a general principle and trying to pigeonhole it into a place where it doesn't belong. i had scumreads on d0, so i don't think it makes any sense for May to believe that i would be uncomfortable faking them.

[Moros]

i think Black is town, i think implosion is probably town, and i want to vote between May and tired person.

[Moros]

coalition failing makes me think i was on the wrong path. i am worried about implosion because i think that he had the least drive to secure a winning coalition, or care about the details of it. it feels more like he didn't want things to be disrupted. i think he makes sense as a partner to aventurine, who also didn't want things to be disrupted.

This is the only time since coalition that Moros has given a concrete opinion on any player, and it has since said it doesn't know if it agrees with this anymore. So in effect Moros has given 0 information about the current state of its reads.

Rereading with a fresh mind today is all well and good if it happens. There's a point at which there needs to be something concrete. I have at many times not found anyone on the coalition, or even in the whole game, actively scummy - but I can still weigh the different reasons I have for townreading people. It's a new phase of the game, and there's new opportunities to read people off of new content and to commit to new stances in light of new information. Committing to stances is pro-town, even if you have low confidence in those stances, which you can always be explicit about, because it will give us more stuff to analyze come late game.

you're right, of course. i'm sorry. i'll try to share more of my thoughts.

[Moros]

i think DArby is my favorite replacement catchup by far. they feel like they have the goal of solving the game and getting their own reads across, and not anything more. it's efficient and straightforward. i think it feels very town-motivated.

[Moros]

It is admittedly "hard to post analytical content" about Moros when it played normally d0 and is at the keyboard afk this phase
It'd be a better lim than tired person since it's possible for scum to be comfortable with the weird day zero game mode but get uncomfortable needing to fake scumreads

i don't like this because it is taking a general principle and trying to pigeonhole it into a place where it doesn't belong. i had scumreads on d0, so i don't think it makes any sense for May to believe that i would be uncomfortable faking them.

What should I believe about you being silent? I don't think your day 1 play in general makes you seem like someone who would scumfreeze even if you're scum but I have to round down when I'm interpreting opaque behavior that could be deliberately opaque

i don't think it's wrong to be suspicious. this feels like making my point about something else. i don't have an issue with implosion or Black becoming more suspicious of me when i was less active. my issue was that you justified it in a way that doesn't make sense.

[Moros]

i think that implosion feeling frustrated that people aren't engaging with him and asking him in particular questions is the one thing that came across as odd to me. it feels like a concern that would come more from "nobody is solving me" instead of "nobody is solving the game". i think that could still be something that town would feel, but it felt out of place to me. the rest of his emotions and especially his response to May felt real to me.

[Moros]

how confident are people in their black townreads? i genuindly do not feel that she has had to do anything but post to earn utr status so far is she like super polarised or something?

i think the simplest explanation to me is that it feels like she is trying to figure things out. i don't get the sense that she has the answers already. maybe that reasoning is weak but i feel most confident in that read.

[Moros]

ooohhh moros is town

pedit: ooohhh moros is town

why now?

[Moros]

black/darby/tsawwassen towns, i think.

[Moros]

i don't remember why i ever townread tired person and i suspect it might have just happened because i mentally locked in the team of the worst/tsawwassen and so everyone else became town to my mind.

[Moros]

may, do you townread tired person?

[Moros]

i admit i consistently did not think about the game for a few days but i have recovered and i think my brain is working again.

[Moros]

trying to solve who was scum here felt too intimidating to me and so i briefly gave up. but i think i have a better view of the game now.

[Moros]

i think it is most likely to be experience.

[Moros]

i might be overwilling to townread people who reverse course and decide that i'm town but that is also a thing that helps town win the game. i think scum would be eager to keep me as an option, because there was a brief window where i was much more available as one than any other point in the game, and they wouldn't want that to slip away.

[Moros]

may, do you townread tired person?

The most salient thing about tired person to me is when implosion!scum was super unpopular she showed up and said "whoa Mays idea is right implosion isn't trying to solve the game if he wants experience to be town rather than be found". It didn't seem like a critique likely to be rewarded in any way. At the same time I've relived the experience of being egged on on a bad theory many many times. The interaction is more clearing if the tea leaves themselves were being seconded instead of my opinion of the tea leaves being seconded, which depends on implo's flip.

There's not like, a ton otherwise that I townread tp for besides her tone seeming ok.

it feels like you aren't seriously considering tired person as a possible scums and this read doesn't feel like one that would compel you to do so intentionally. in 1190 couldn't it be a scum who didn't snow you?

[Moros]

was i too late to re-townread you? is that read no longer cool?

your read was the loftiest muse from which my conclusion was conceived.

[Moros]

may, do you townread tired person?

The most salient thing about tired person to me is when implosion!scum was super unpopular she showed up and said "whoa Mays idea is right implosion isn't trying to solve the game if he wants experience to be town rather than be found". It didn't seem like a critique likely to be rewarded in any way. At the same time I've relived the experience of being egged on on a bad theory many many times. The interaction is more clearing if the tea leaves themselves were being seconded instead of my opinion of the tea leaves being seconded, which depends on implo's flip.

There's not like, a ton otherwise that I townread tp for besides her tone seeming ok.

it feels like you aren't seriously considering tired person as a possible scums and this read doesn't feel like one that would compel you to do so intentionally. in 1190 couldn't it be a scum who didn't snow you?

My heartburn about eliminating tired person is that it's kind of advancing the pawn Implosion to the 8th square to eliminate one of very few other people who think he is a scummy slot with a lot of thread control. In some ways that feels worse than eliminating Black.

But if Implosion is just town at the end of the tunnel yes tired person is mafia in a whole lot of those worlds

in 1156 you thought implosion was on the other side of the chessboard than you expected and may not be threatening promotion. when you unvoted, you voted me. did you consider tired person?

[Moros]

was i too late to re-townread you? is that read no longer cool?

your read was the loftiest muse from which my conclusion was conceived.

What does this mean?

the worst reversed course on me and that made me think about whether scum would be likely to do so and led to me posting 1208.

[Moros]

i think that he was the first to reverse course which is the most significant one to me, because scum would be less eager to take me back off the table and they May wait for others to do it first.

[Moros]

UNVOTE:

[Moros]

I would prefer to kill tired person or implosion. I like Moros and Black and have loud feeling in both directions for Implosion and quiet feelings in both directions for tired person

i like the way the part about implosion and tired person is is phrased. it feels elegant but it also makes sense to me. i think something about this made May's mindset click for me in a way that i had struggled to find before.

[Moros]

VOTE: tired person

[Moros]

i think something about this made May's mindset click for me in a way that i had struggled to find before.

Can you try to elaborate on this

i didn't understand why she wasn't looking towards tired person and it felt like her view of the game was inconsistent. the puzzle pieces weren't lining up. but if she feels more passionate about her implosion read while tired person is more null then it explains to me why she isn't as focused there.

[Moros]

i think that also there not being any pushes on tired person yet was surprising to me and i wanted to try one.

[Moros]

it feels like a lot of people want to vote x or tired person and then they keep voting x.

[Moros]

i don't actually know of that's true for very many people but it feels that way.

[Moros]

I want to wait a few flips to see more from tp.

why?

[Moros]

I like 1284. DArby is definitely town right

i think so too.

[Moros]

Hey I’m glad everyone thinks I’m town but I was hoping for a response in what I actually said or if that makes sense as an argument

i think it's possible but i don't know if there's reason to believe that it's more likely than the town explanation. i thought ceejay's play was suspicious as well but that point doesn't convince me much. i think the worst has been more townie.

[Moros]

@the worst, I'd like to know how sure is your implosion read. I feel I'm wavering on that

Don't have anything else to say about your list

implosion is my strongest townread. I kept him in my POE to a fault in a recent game and like, looking at what he's posting here, he makes so much sense within the scope of how I understand implosion's brain

that dichotomy earlier in my ramble responding to one of moros' posts is kinda where I'm at. he had a logical, structured way of approaching thought things. the mathematician brain. I think when I peel back the layers, I can see some like little cracks and flaws in the concepts behind his thoughts which feel quite human & authentic. I don't really sense a consistent narrative or agenda in his posts except for the kind of stubbornness which I also think he's acutely aware of.

oohhh if he's scum he also is very self aware here which would be quite impressive..

do you think this doesn't feel right to you anymore? how have your thoughts changed?

[Moros]

i'm confused by the worst's reactions to the questions about his implosion read progression. there is a lack of interest in illumination which feels out of character. i don't know what it means about his alignment.

[Moros]

VOTE: May

[Moros]

experience, it seems like you had more reads and opinions when you first joined than you do now.

[Moros]

VOTE: May

This post is weird without Black's name at the top.

Why me

i townread black and implosion more. i also think that implosion would have night killed someone other than DArby. i think Tsawwassen, who i don't think would be partners with implosion.

[Moros]

DArby was viewed as town by most players i think. but implosion is under the most threat of dying. so i think he would need to kill one of the people pushing him more strongly if he wants to live.

[Moros]

i think that May makes sense as a partner to experience because Umlaut was in most players' coalitions early in the game, and May didn't seem like she was trying to get in. but later Umlaut disappeared and May started pushing more to get in.

[Moros]

i don't think implosion makes sense as a partner to experience because of the way he treated Umlaut early in the game. if implosion is mafia then i think he strongly townread Umlaut because he knew Umlaut was town, not because he was a partner.

[Moros]

i don't think experience is town because he was able to find reads easily and quickly when he needed to form a coalition but has lost that now. i think when he needed to push a coalition with his partner, he did that, but now he doesn't know what to do.

[Moros]

i think town could struggle to find reads but if they do then i think they would feel that way at the start too.

[Moros]

It's like pretty annoying to be declared mafia purely on a preflip assoc with experience.

this is the third time that you've used language that frames my points in an inaccurate way that allows you to be dismissive of them, which is i think enough reason for me to want to vote you on its own. you may consider the vote to be purely for that reason instead if you find that one to be less annoying.

[Moros]

the point about experience was two posts removed from my answer to your question so i think it would take a great mental leap to decide that it was the only relevant response.

[Moros]

i may not have properly conveyed that the point about experience was more of an addendum than a primary thought. i don't think it's a good idea to assume he is mafia but who his partners may be if so is something i was considering.

[Moros]

i don't think so. the experience read doesn't loop back to anything else. if experience is scum then he voted for a coalition with his partner on it. this is axiomatic in the general case because he voted for the winning coalition and the winning coalition failed. it is true regardless of his partner.

[Moros]

the reads build on each other but i believe the structure is sound if you construct it on a foundation of scum experience. i think it's true though that building the house before checking if the foundation is there or not is unwise.

[Moros]

It's like pretty annoying to be declared mafia purely on a preflip assoc with experience.

this is the third time that you've used language that frames my points in an inaccurate way that allows you to be dismissive of them, which is i think enough reason for me to want to vote you on its own. you may consider the vote to be purely for that reason instead if you find that one to be less annoying.

Preflip associations are fundamentally bad approach to mafia. But I can't resolve 3 MD threads of discussion convincing you of that.
I also don't want to like, go deep on antiassociatives with experience's slot because it can get wifomy. It's better to just try to express my alignment individually and nudge you in some sort of way to table the full team tinfoils.

But also annoyed is an emotion you made me feel

this is still tangential at best. my read on you is not based on preflips.

[Moros]

is my manner of speaking or manner of thinking difficult to parse in general? it seems like people keep missing the point of things that i say and if that is universal then i should be more hesitant to ascribe ill intentions to it.

[Moros]

the reads build on each other but i believe the structure is sound if you construct it on a foundation of scum experience. i think it's true though that building the house before checking if the foundation is there or not is unwise.

You used scum!exp as the basis to assert scum!May. Yet you used town!exp as the basis to assert implosion can't be partner with him because he TMI'd his read.

There are two polarizing hypothesis there.

i didn't do either of those things. i said if experience is scum, then may fits as a possible partner. and i said if implosion is scum, experience is more likely town than scum. no conclusions can be made as a result of these statements because we don't know if the ifs are true. but i think that pulling together these if-thens helps me get closer to an overall understanding.

[Moros]

i then explained what i thought about experience's alignment because that is relevant to both of the prior statements.

[Moros]

it wasn't meant to sway i was just sharing things that i was thinking about.

[Moros]

is Pip aligned with the town or with the mafia?