Mini Normal 2334: trees (Day 5)

[Klick]

Hello friends

I'll be around in 3ish hours to catch up. I'd appreciate an unvote.

[Klick]

I dont think it's fair to give whomever replaces in CCS's unenviable slot. Beyond an unlikely random of piece of info in the unlikely case the slot is town I also don't think we benefit much either.

Without any other thread context whatsoever, this feels like scum who doesn't want a replacement to come in and ruin their miselim.

[Klick]

Good

[Klick]

I'm here, catching up now, happy to chat about whatever until then but will mostly be taking notes

[Klick]

Actually, thought about it some more......this is just scum trying to bully my read

VOTE: Thomith

My Page 5 thoughts are kind of just that this was an accurate read?

I have Enchant/Elements/Groyvle as town so far and think Thomith is sus

[Klick]

I am down to vote anyone that isn't Grovyle or Dann. If we're going to bandwagon, others lack Towntelling in my eyes.

I've changed my mind
Come VOTE: Thomith
Will help end the day

Why do you think it's a good idea to end the day quickly?

Responses like this are poking at someone tangential to the actual vote because Thomith feels like he needs to talk down the vote on him, but doesn't actually have anything to say about the votes on him
This comment didn't need to happen, I think it happened because Thom's scum

[Klick]

Aside from that I nearly fell asleep to Page 7

[Klick]

Thomith then starts commenting on stuff completely tangential to the heated conversation going on between RationalMadman and Elements, because he's watching two townies argue and doesn't actually want to get in their way

[Klick]

I feel bad for KJQ being in this game regardless of her alignment, but particularly if she drew scum with a potato team again

[Klick]

I'm on Page 20 and I'm tired

Scum is Thomith and probably one of {Black, ActionDan, Gibdo}

I'll try and find out more tomorrow

[Klick]

This game sure does get dull lol

[Klick]

i like voting people i don't necessarily want dead or even scum read to see how people react and how people might choose to join or not join the wagon

grovyle is trying to solve the game I think

can you just take a step back and relax for a moment? You're not going to die today

If you're town, I do actually want to work with you, but you spending every waking moment in thread shouting at people about how bad they are and how good you are does nothing to help and actively makes people tune you out

What a legend

[Klick]

There is no use to delay the vote on awesomeming

Except to vote CCS, or Thomith, or Hu

Yes I have turned on Hu

This is not scum

[Klick]

I would not be surprised at all to find out that RationalMadman is a Random Nurse alt

[Klick]

I'm pretty sure this is Hu Tao's town game
I have a pretty good track record of reading Hu Tao
I have a fairly limited experience with her as scum, but I also think she has a really clear town perspective when she is town

[Klick]

Bloop

[Klick]

Hu's scumread on KJQ feels as fake as her scumread on Dann. I understand the concept of wanting to give a replacement a chance to salvage the slot but she disregarded her KJQ scumread so easily. It doesn't feel like a natural reaction to me

I was about to dispute this as a harsh read of the situation, as I didn't think Hu Tao strongly scumread Kay and just felt weird about her, and the unvote made sense if she did genuinely think she would feel more confident reading you later.

I reread the Kay vote though, and that didn't seem to be the case, that felt like a "I'm pretty sure you're scum" reason for a vote.
I think I'm inclined to agree with you because of that.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

So at some point Thomith goes from this to being a main reason for the awesomeming flip?

[Klick]

Thomith where are your reads at currently

All over the place I'm struggling to get into this game.

I townread Dann.

I townread ming I think because their "OMGUS" suspicion on Rational did seem like he was trying to solve.

I think Rational may be town because of the amount of resistance he is receiving, but that could be a personality thing which makes me less sure.

I disliked Elements early but feel better about them more recently I think.

I dislike CCS and Nick.
Goofball needs to do more.

I think Dann/Gibdo are probably the same alignment based on how they interacted earlier in Day 1 (I'll find the post where I explained this before)

If Hu Tao is scum maybe Salty is town because of the early scum read Hu Tao had there?

I just find everything Thom says so removed from any indication that he genuinely believes it
These thoughts feel like they were generated upon Black asking for them

[Klick]

VC 1.14

awesomeming327 (5):

RationalMadman 266, DrippingGoofball 594, Dannflor 1153, Thomith 1156, Black 792

Dannflor (4):

Elements 997, camelCasedSnivy 1001, Hu Tao 1026, DrNickRiviera 1030

Hu Tao (1):

Grovyle in a Fedora 736

RationalMadman (1):

awesomeming327 412

Not Voting:

Gibdo 604, ActionDan 1012

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Deadline:

(expired on 2024-04-17 20:15:00)

Notes: Grovyle in a Fedora is V/LA until 4/14 8pm EDT

This is a really perplexing VC

I think everyone on the Dann wagon is quite towny

The logical conclusions from this are:

1. I'm wrong about someone in {Elements, Hu Tao, NickRiviera} (this is definitely worth looking into)
2. Scum were incentivised in some way to either bus, or were noncommittal for some reason.

[Klick]

I would not be surprised at all to find out that RationalMadman is a Random Nurse alt

No way lmao

I am 100% serious btw
The stubborn insistence that everyone listen to him, the intense fear of wagons getting near elimination because of RN's trauma around your quicklim in that one game, the confident conjecture based on stuff that people do based on their personalities
It adds up scarily well

[Klick]

1172 is WILD to me after everything that has come from Hu Tao.

VOTE: awesomeming327

I want to hear some really innocent-sounding arguments from awesomeming specifically regarding why he's reading Hu Tao as town and why he thinks "progression with dann is also good".

I quite like this. It doesn't feel like a bus vote

[Klick]

We lost a neighborizer, well that sucks.

Prediction: awesoming was bus'ed by both their buddies. That slot was more useful as a source of town cred than alive.

I really like this thought process post- awesomeming death

[Klick]

I want to sheep DGB's reads at the beginning of this phase I think that was a good solve

[Klick]

VOTE: Hu Tao

One day you'll stop scum reading me every game and actually try to read me and see if I'm town or not

This is town.

DGB with the banger posts today

[Klick]

CCS "case":

A swing and a miss on Thomith:

475 is not sufficiently backed up by 609. 225 does nothing to further the claim of "trying to get a vote" on elements. It is on its surface only applying logic to lessen a potential scumread on Thomith by elements. Likewise 630 is neither here nor there in the context of the broader dialogue between Thomith and Elements early game and the question posed is making a comparison between unlike things namely Thomith's treatment of Elements and Elements treatment of RM.

695 is quite bad, even worse now that Awesomeming has flipped scum. First RM's case/read on Awesomeming never had any bite or logic behind it, so "getting behind it" and piggybacking on RM's content already would show a lack of care about the read. If the read was formed independently and didn't hinge on anything RM has said then RM breathing down ming's neck shouldn't come into account regardless.

posts 693 1008 and 1080 taken together do not mesh well if the cynicism for Hu Tao is overridden by Dann's progression on that slot.

Also its been said but calling DGB's reads TMI doesn't follow a logical perspective either.

The only thing that would make me even slightly hesitant is that this slot is so comically linked to Awesomeming's that I'd think scum would be more cautious.

You guys are more than welcome to eat Hu's lunch but flipping this slot has got to be the correct play.

I think this is a townie pushing something they care about, despite knowing it's wrong

[Klick]

Black Page 60 vibes towny

I have quite a few straight townreads without a super confident solve

[Klick]

Awesomeming gave up. He didn't vote Dannflor who we now know is/was Town. He simply outed 'I am tracker' and didn't even try to fake reads.

I think this is probably true.

In hindsight, there's probably a lot to read into when Awesomeming noticeably gave up, and what interactions around him were like at that time

[Klick]

So I'm effectively caught up

hi i wont be able to post until tomorrow

welcome klick, I personally see gibido as genuinely towny esp with how they shared dann's thoughts putting them firmly into townpile, and wrt KJQ i put that down as someone demotivated by RM's play (which I sympathize with) + black and thomith both effectively swung the momentum towards awesome (away from hu tao i might add while dann was a wagon) which I feel effectively places them as town.

why do you think hu tao is not PoE material?

I don't think the timing or execution of the Black or Thomith votes when they happened are clearing

[Klick]

I'm going to sleep on my thoughts on this game. I marathoned through it a bit, and my reading kept getting interrupted by pages of arguing about exactly how good a player RationalMadman is

This is tentatively where I am

TOWN

Enchant
Hu Tao
DrippingGoofball

PROBABLY TOWN

Elements
DrNickRiviera
Grovyle in a Fedora

NOT AS CONFIDENT

Black
ActionDan

SCUM

Thomith

VOTE: Thomith

[Klick]

Oh yes Gibdo exists
I'd put them like... in between the two middle tiers. I spent most of the readthrough thinking they were super null and very PoE. Their vote on Awesomeming doesn't feel like a natural bus, but I don't think that's super convincing in hindsight compared to what other players have that's towny for them. I am willing to sheep others on them being town but I don't actually have that much conviction in that read myself.

[Klick]

I'm pretty sure this is Hu Tao's town game
I have a pretty good track record of reading Hu Tao
I have a fairly limited experience with her as scum, but I also think she has a really clear town perspective when she is town

Like this is something not real at all,

Y

[Klick]

the entirety of klicks reads can be boiled down to how others are reading the Hu tao slot.

Definitely didn't feel that way while I was reading pages of drivel!

[Klick]

I mean if Klick couldn't see Gibdo was town that's probably the biggest red flag to me now that he's caught up.

I haven't seen convincing evidence that Gibdo is town
I think a lot of the expressed reasons for Gibdo!town are lazy and are underestimating the potential for Gibdo to be a decent scum player

[Klick]

I think the expressed CCS vote reasoning is quite lazy as well and boils down to 'lurking is scummy for CCS', and 'interactions with awesomeming are bad', both of which are flawed

[Klick]

I'm happy to talk to anyone who is interested in talking to me instead of about or around me

[Klick]

Bloop

[Klick]

- 1774 wouldn't give a decent player enough information at all to read Hu Tao as town, if there's more to your read here Klick then I need to see it.

That's because my intention wasn't to demonstrate to you that Hu Tao is town, my intention was to briefly express my own thoughts on the things I cared about most while reading

I'm happy to town-case Hu Tao but I don't think this particular audience will be that receptive to my actual thoughts on the slot

[Klick]

I'll have to do that this evening, I've not really got time or energy for that on my lunch break

The very tl;dr is that I believe in Hu Tao's perspective of the game - I believe town would behave the way she's behaving, I think there are aspects of it that scum wouldn't intuitively fabricate, as an overall vibe she feels like she's genuinely pushing what she believes.

But people always hate the details of that sort of qualitative analysis

[Klick]

VOTE: Klick

1793 raises a few big red flags for me.

First, putting Hu Tao in the "Town" category would be a very scary and hasty conclusion for a town-aligned player to reach, especially when you consider the following:
- Dannflor, as the only confirmed town, hard tunneling her in D1 and getting NK'd right after
- She was one of the five players to NOT vote awesomeming after a clear ball drop
- 1774 wouldn't give a decent player enough information at all to read Hu Tao as town, if there's more to your read here Klick then I need to see it.

Second, after Klick replacing camelCasedSnivy (who was heavily scumread by most of us) and reading up on the game, I don't think a good enough case was presented for Thomith to match such a strong scumread on him. I'd have expected something far stronger than "this doesn't feel genuine" in 1777.

Thirdly, the reads on ActionDan are inconsistent between 1786 and 1793, especially for only being a couple hours apart. It gives the impression that town's favor is trying to be gained by agreeing with him while not actually acknowledging that ActionDan has been consistently making incredibly town-aligned posts.

I contrast it with this, which is a big wall of things that just serve to justify a vote that Gibdo clearly already wants to make

None of this actually says 'this makes Klick scum' and I don't think Gibdo believes in this as much as he wants to present something that looks competent

[Klick]

None of this actually says 'this makes Klick scum' and I don't think Gibdo believes in this as much as he wants to present something that looks competent

I'm pretty sure you've accused me of doing this when I was town before. I think this is a go-to read of yours when you don't really like the case but it's not a very good way to catch scum imo

I don't necessarily think it means Gibdo is scum
But I do think it trends more towards scum behaviour than town
It also just generally annoys me

[Klick]

I think most people in this lobby are expecting 'case' and then being disappointed with 'vague lump of thoughts'

[Klick]

First, putting Hu Tao in the "Town" category would be a very scary and hasty conclusion for a town-aligned player to reach, especially when you consider the following:
- Dannflor, as the only confirmed town, hard tunneling her in D1 and getting NK'd right after
- She was one of the five players to NOT vote awesomeming after a clear ball drop
- 1774 wouldn't give a decent player enough information at all to read Hu Tao as town, if there's more to your read here Klick then I need to see it.

All of this, extrapolated from 'Klick townreads Hu Tao and hasn't thoroughly explained it'

It's a nothingness and only serves to keep the status quo of myself and Hu Tao being under suspicion

None of the things you bring up here actually give reasons to... not townread Hu Tao. They're all surface reasons one might consider looking in her direction.

Second, after Klick replacing camelCasedSnivy (who was heavily scumread by most of us) and reading up on the game, I don't think a good enough case was presented for Thomith to match such a strong scumread on him. I'd have expected something far stronger than "this doesn't feel genuine" in 1777.

I didn't post a case attempting to persuade people that Thomith is scum

Thirdly, the reads on ActionDan are inconsistent between 1786 and 1793, especially for only being a couple hours apart. It gives the impression that town's favor is trying to be gained by agreeing with him while not actually acknowledging that ActionDan has been consistently making incredibly town-aligned posts.

I posted something that looked towny to me from ActionDan but didn't burn that into my overarching view of the game

Like the reason I'm saying I don't believe you really believe this is because it feels like you're getting to 'I don't understand this' and then stopping all thought and concluding I must be scum. There are absolutely questions you could ask to attempt to understand the things you instead choose to make assumptions about here.

[Klick]

VOTE: Black

[Klick]

I think her positioning irt this situation is quite poor
Is she town for Black reasons or KJQ reasons?

[Klick]

If I were a vigilante. I'd shoot in Elements/thom/grovyle/goofball

Hypothetically speaking of course

What an interesting thought.

Is your team afraid of taking an arrow from the vig?

Yes. We are literally shaking and crying right now.

Hello partner, are you still around

[Klick]

Idk just vibes. In your town game you were doing less too

Hello

Can you vote me
I think we're not getting much more out of today at its current trajectory

[Klick]

That's because you haven't attempted to put yourself into the shoes of someone who read 70 pages of RationalMadman and gave thoughts only to be told they were flat not believable without attempts at engagement

[Klick]

Did you ever answer 1834?

I don't really know how to definitively answer it because it involves a lot of what I *feel* when I read Hu Tao's posts
When I read Hu Tao's posts in context I believe that what she's saying is coming from someone who is town and trying to solve this game on her level

I could probably towncase Hu Tao but I don't really feel motivated to do so

[Klick]

Yeah

[Klick]

If people want to vote elsewhere I'll join. But I think I'm probably a sensible vote for game health with a day left and considering everyone's dispositions

[Klick]

I think knowledge that I'm town makes reading back on today's interactions a potentially fruitful experience for those who are convinced this slot is scum
As opposed to them carrying that prejudice through the next day or two

[Klick]

VOTE: Elements

[Klick]

Why

[Klick]

I'm rereading elements again and again coming to a town conclusion. I'm not sure I'm the best person to read elements though as foe something like 3 games in a row I've called her town when she was scum. Still think she's town here.

If a random wagon came up I'd have more preferred Dr nick just because 1929 was truly a crap post.

Doesn't matter. Please do the right thing and hammer klick

What the fuck? What is the issue with 1929?

VOTE: Klick

This seems like an overreaction lol

[Klick]

I'm a VT.

I trust most of you to take this as an opportunity to significantly reevaluate. Don't get cocky, you don't have the answers until they're confirmed. This group needs a solid foundation for townreads.

I'm hoping the interactions around my wagon are decently telling