Mini Normal 2334: trees (Day 6)

[Aureal]

Just gonna non sequitur, huh?

[SmileyDude1]

Ok so i've been going over the claims in my head while at work today.

This mass claim was quite illuminating for me actually. I came into the day leaning it was DGB + 1 of Nick/Grovyle based on what I had read so far. I think given the situation regarding the claims there's a maximum of 1 scum within the above group now.

Confirmed to exist:
Town Neighborizer
3x VT

1x Mafia Goon

Claims:
DGB- Roleblocker
Nick- Jailkeeper
Grovyle- Novice Vanilla Cop
Everyone else- VT

If multiple of Nick/DGB/Grovyle were fake, town doesn't have enough power here even if the mafia team were completely vanilla .

Neighborizer
Jailkeeper
Roleblocker
Novice Vanilla Cop

sounds like a realistic ammount of town power?

I think this is on the fringe of maybe being too much town power if the scum team was completely vanilla. Like I can see a world with the vanilla cop acting as a negative utility and the JK+RB combination having the potential to get in the way of other PRs being considered balanced (similarish to mini 2333), but two different ways to potentially halt scum kills that can also potentially produce guilties in the late game feels like scum feels kind of harsh for scum if they are all vanilla. I think in the world where all PRs are real, scum probs have a PR themselves

[SmileyDude1]

Going deeper, I think if there's a liar among the PRs, it's probably Grovyle. Thinking about it from the perspective of one of DGB/Nick/Grovyle being fake, I think Grovyle is the only one of the above realities that doesn't feature a hole of some sort.

If DGB was fake:


-They are confirmed to be a roleblocker due to Grovyle's 2260 claiming the roleblock.

-In the world where DGB is a scum roleblocker it'd make the setup

Town Neighborizer
Town Jailkeeper
Town Novice Vanilla Cop
7x VT

Vs.
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon
? (probably another goon)

This doesn't feel right to me. I think the amount of town power listed above doesn't really necessitate a roleblocker on scum's end to counter and this feels like it'd be scumsided. Like the amount of town power listed here feels about right-ish for a vanilla scum team. I think the only way DGB scum out of the PR trio here is if they were something weird like 1-Shot Roleblocker and even then i'm not sure that's necessary for the town power listed above

----

If Nick was fake:

-They'd probably be a fakeclaiming goon. They'd be unlikely to be a scum jailkeeper for similar reasons that DGB doesn't really feel right being a scum roleblocker.

-If Nick scum that means Grovyle/DGB good (as mentioned earlier town prob too weak otherwise) and the only other blocked claim was DGB on Grovyle. Remember no kill happened last night, this scenario leaves the cause of that no kill unaccounted for. In order for Nick to be scum here, scum would've needed to intentionally no kill in this position, and I don't really see a reason why they would do that.

---

If Grovyle fake:

I don't really see any holes in this world. The no-kill is easily accounted for in this case, and there's room for Grovyle to be a goon who decided to fake claim vanilla cop here.

In conclusion I think if any of the PR claims are fake it's Grovyle, otherwise if all PRs are real then both scum are in the VT claims with one of them probs being a scum PR of some sort.

[SmileyDude1]

TLDR; It's Grovyle + a VT claim or 2 within the VT claims.

So far i've read through the following ISOs in full thoroughly enough to get some sort of takeaways from them.

DGB
Grovyle
Nick

Also have read through Elements slot and Gibdo but didn't really get too much out of those so I probs need to reread them again. I plan to read through the ISOs of the VT claims in order to better ID a potential solve within them in the case all PRs are real. Think Grovyle would be a good hit, but want to assess to see how likely the latter scenario is before going forward.

[SmileyDude1]

2 roleblocking roles seems wrong however, but i dont know if dgb is the type to trueclaim a scum result?

why did you target me dgb?

I was hoping to stop the NK.

I dont believe you. I think you correctly assumed I was a PR there VOTE: DGB

Why DGB over Smiley?

Smiley's Lim resolves me as well, for anyone doubting my role

My green flip won't resolve you. You're probably town so I ask you to reconsider.

[Aureal]

I'm sorry, I can't even finish reading that after "scum don't need a roleblocker in a setup with 3 town PRs, so DGB is the least likely to be lying" XD

VOTE: SmileyDude1

[SmileyDude1]

Bruh... Moment,

Go through Normal Archives and you can find plenty of examples of 3 PR vs Vanilla Scum team.

Neighborizer varies in usefulness depending on the skill of the player and ability to coordinate

The Vanilla Cop is gated and can only help pin the roleblocker, more likely to out other PRs then help

The only super useful role there is the jailkeeper.

Scum RB in a 3 PR game would make sense if town PRs were strong, but they'd be pretty weak in the scenario I mentioned above.

[SmileyDude1]

In addition, why did you deem my case scummy rather than just wrong or misguided here?

[tris]

VC 4.1

DrippingGoofball (1):

Grovyle in a Fedora 2275

Grovyle in a Fedora (1):

DrippingGoofball 2293

SmileyDude1 (1):

Aureal 2305

Not Voting:

Gypyx, DrNickRiviera, Black, SmileyDude1, Gibdo

With 8 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline:

(expired on 2024-05-16 16:20:00)

[DrNickRiviera]

In addition, why did you deem my case scummy rather than just wrong or misguided here?

Well there is the thing about me jailing you

[DrNickRiviera]

I know I'm town.

Who claimed first?

Well.....I did

Also, I have to think about this as well, but if you are telling the truth then it could be as simple as my JK stopped the NK, not your RB

Also I feel like Grovyle's reaction to your claim is more genuine than Smiley's reaction to my claim

[DrippingGoofball]

And what is the significance of this?

[DrNickRiviera]

And what is the significance of this?

Well.....you are saying you are town and telling the truth

But you are only willing to believe that you role blocked the kill, even though I jailed someone and a kill didn't go through

You realize that it is possible that Grovyle didn't try to NK anyone, right?

[DrippingGoofball]

It seems unlikely that we have a town JK and town RB.

[DrNickRiviera]

It seems unlikely that we have a town JK and town RB.

Well then, that just means you are scum in this scenario.

[Aureal]

Yeah. She's just playing clueless. If she was really convinced she'd stopped a kill with her roleblock she'd have come into the thread more like you did; but instead she waited to throw shade until it was clear we're not buying her claim.

[Aureal]

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

mod, you may want to correct the deadline used in the last vote count

[tris]

Oops! fixed

[DrNickRiviera]

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

mod, you may want to correct the deadline used in the last vote count

Shit, I was wondering why the deadline was so fast approaching haha

[Grovyle in a Fedora]

town may have power that is lying and not claiming here fwiw, and I wont say out loud what that power may be here for obvious reasons, I dont think its worth speculating the setup and I think smiley is doing so in a bit of a scummy way to discredit me in particular when my claim is effectively softed in the way I have played with the information I had from my role. Why am I going to check hu tao as scum when I want to find PRs to nightkill? it only goes to "setup bad".

(also its clear that nick is a gated role here, and we dont know DGB's gate if it exists, as scum or town)

It's also finals week for me starting tomorrow so I'm going to be incredibly busy (but ill try to pop in at least once every day or so) so

V/LA 5/8/2024-5/15/2024

[Aureal]

Huh?

[SmileyDude1]

town may have power that is lying and not claiming here fwiw, and I wont say out loud what that power may be here for obvious reasons, I dont think its worth speculating the setup and I think smiley is doing so in a bit of a scummy way to discredit me in particular when my claim is effectively softed in the way I have played with the information I had from my role. Why am I going to check hu tao as scum when I want to find PRs to nightkill? it only goes to "setup bad".

(also its clear that nick is a gated role here, and we dont know DGB's gate if it exists, as scum or town)

It's also finals week for me starting tomorrow so I'm going to be incredibly busy (but ill try to pop in at least once every day or so) so

V/LA 5/8/2024-5/15/2024

I feel like if there were any other PRs they would've revealed by now (and if they haven't they should IMO because that'd probs confirm scum in the PR claims, where as right now it's somewhat unclear).

Also could you explain how the spec I did was scummy? As I mentioned earlier, I think there can be a reality where all the claimed PRs are real this game (it's why i'm going through the process of reviewing the VT ISOs), I just postulated that given the claimed actions and the no-kill your claim stands out as the weak link there if scum is in the PRs. What do you disagree with in regards to my 2302

Also good luck on finals week .

[SmileyDude1]

I kind of feel like town roleblocker + town jailkeeper can coexist within the same setup actually. I know some may find it counterintuitive since they serve a similar function, but like I can kind of see double blocking roles being given in lieu of an investigative role here from a power standpoint.

Feels like i'm missing something here, but I would like to hear more about why those roles are unlikely to coexist here.

[SmileyDude1]

In addition, why did you deem my case scummy rather than just wrong or misguided here?

Well there is the thing about me jailing you

There's also this thing where another blocking action was claimed afterwards. I get why you think it's dubious that scum shot into me, but from your view why am I more likely to have been blocked then Grov here.

[Black]

VOTE: Smiley