Wacky wrote:Since I'm next on the normal game list I think I may as well check with you guys here. The game will be ...(aside: is do wiki tags work yet?).... ExperimentalGame ? RolelessMafia with each "player" being represented by 2 persons who can communicate at any time.
Hehe, ring a bell, mikeamok ?
Anyway, I think both cuban smoker and Macros have already answered this. If the mechanics of the roles are standard and there's only one new feature in the game (like having two players play one role), I'm willing to consider it a normal game. However, if there are more differences than this, I would have to redirect you to my colleague cuban smoker . If you're not sure, contact me by PM.
Mikeamok was around here way before mikehart and recently joined us again for a game of mafia. Your game idea reminded me of another mafia game where I was in with Mikeamok.
MUNSCM Delegate for the United Kingdom
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Ok, I have thoughts about this whole normal game thing, and was wondering about how I could relate it to college without making it seem theme like, if you know what I mean...
I made a cool set-up involving clubs and societies of a college. It's probably themed, though there really isn't much more different other than the players play the role of a club or society, and the roles are mostly normal with one or 2 oddities.
I made it for college bulletin boards, but the game never took off so the set-up is unused. It's also very Irish-oriented, and oriented towards my college in particular, so I doubt if it would work here.
[size=75][color=darkblue]I'm never wrong... well I was wrong once but that was when I thought I'd made a mistake but hadn't.[/color][/size]
I would like to play or mod some games, and I'm not sure if they qualify as normal or themed or what. I want to do things like:
half SK, half vig
or 3 SK, the rest plain townies
or 3 groups of 4 mafia each, and no one else
or 2 SK, 2 vig, and the rest plain townies
I'd like to explore the dynamics of games where there's no cop, doc, or other weird roles which distract from the purity and aesthetic beauty of the game.
All the mechanics would be normal, but there wouldn't necessarily be the "uninformed majority".
I wouldn't call any of those "themed", as they're all easily describable in a single line with reference to basic mafia roles. I don't think they'd work particularly well though, and as such might be so far out of whack of the normal mafia game dynamic that they deserve to be shepherded away from the Normal Games section.
Half SK / Half Vig - this would be murder. I would be surprised if the winner/s won through anything but dumb luck. I suspect that it would not be a particularly satisfying game.
3 SK vs townies - this would work OK, but you're losing an important aspect of mafia games which is the "evil functions as a team" element. Also the increased number of opposed anti-town killers will probably count in the town's favour - I'm guessing it's very likely that one if not two SKs will be killed in the night.
4x three-man-mafia families - this idea is a common one and I don't think it works or is much fun. It tends to kill the basic mafia dynamic of appealing to a majority who are all pretending to be on the same side, and so lynches become a bit random.
2 SK, 2 vig, townies - could work fine. I think the SK's will be lucky to survive, but it'd make an interesting challenge. The biggest threat to this setup is the inherent randomness of four independent killing parties.
No cop/doc/etc - has been done, and works very nicely. See I think Mini 77
I think having an "uninformed majority" is essential for a fun game. This more than anything is the essence of Mafia, IMO.
I don't know if it's necessary for a fun game. It's certainly necessary for a game of mafia. Usually games that share characteristics with mafia, such as the day/night cycle or popular lynches, are called "mafia mutations" and fall into a similar category with themed games.
It might be instructive to go into why we even make a distinction between themed and unthemed games, so I submit to you this parable. Imagine if you will, a roller coaster. This is the most fun roller coaster ever devised, and lots of people love it. So many, in fact, that they wait in line to ride it over, and over, and over again. One day, though, someone says, "Sure, the roller coaster is great, but what if we ran it backwards?". Most of the people in the line, because they love the roller coaster, boo and hiss at this idea, but a few, enough to load up a full ride once, like the idea, so they get to run it backwards once. Some of them decided they liked it better this way, and some who saw it wanted to try it too, and of course there were many who had other ideas about how the roller coaster could be run faster or slower or with spinning cars. So they all built another ride alongside the original one, one that could be re-engineered to suit the tastes of those riding while at the same time allowing the purists to enjoy the classic version.
Themed mafia exists for the same reason, that being that it allows for experimentation without upsetting the flow of normal mafia games. Basically, if having it in a normal queue would upset the flow of normal play, it belongs in a themed queue.
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I like the analogy. So, consensus is that these games would belong in the themed games forum?
Also, what about the following idea: half the town are allied serial killers, the other half are vig. Each player gets only one kill during the course of the game. All the serial killers know who's in the alliance. They win if only serial killers are left, but they kill independently.
memorable Crola quotes:
"scummy is my play style"
"I don't think we should trust anyone, I think you're all liars and murderers fisrt off"
"It's never too late to random vote"
I agree with Polarboy - although I stand by my belief that your games aren't "themed" in the literal sense of the word, he's right that "non-themed" also implies a certain standardness of gameplay that these ideas wouldn't have and, as such, should be classified along with themed games.
I suspect your idea of SK team vs vig town is unplayable... I'm certain there'd be some way for the SK's to organise themselves to wipe out the town in Night 2. In fact, it'd be dead easy. One SK would stand up on Day 1, and order the players in any way s/he sees fit. They'd then instruct the other SKs to kill their matching townie (ie, the first SK on the list would kill the first vig on the list, the second SK would kill the second vig, etc). The vigs have no idea who the other SK's are, but the SK's are fully organised and can mop up easily on Day 2, if there is one.
Actually I should clarify something else. By general consesus there are three classifications as to what doesn't count as normal: the first is themed games; which usually are based on a popular piece of culture and very often require specific information about said source material to be fully understood and enjoyed. the second is "experimental" or "variation" games; these include significantly altered game mechanics and are often highly experimental. The third are "mutations", and they aren't really mafia at all (Not by Dimitri Davidoff's definition). However, since they include many elements of mafia, they are often treated as themed games.
However, there is no organizational signicance to any of these classifications, so it's really a moot point if all you want to know is what queue to sign up in.
Three allied serial killers is scary. If the other "half" are vig, then the SK's will frequently win by the end of night 1. If it were a twelve player game, they'd still be extremely likely to win, seeing as they won't accidentally kill each other.
Also, "one-shot" vigilantes are a near tautology. It is true that sometimes a vig will kill two or more scum during the course of a game, but it's rare for a vig to even attempt more than one kill. Also, something many mods don't take into account is that vigilantes base their decisions on roughly the same information. It's likely that if one of them is certain enough of scumminess to risk a kill, any other vig will be as well, so all but one waste their night actions (See Mixed Theme Mafia). The reasoning is different and much more complicated if the vigilantes are aware of each other's existence.
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Well, what I'd like to do is have a symmetrical game. What if there were two uninformed groups? You'd need some voting mechanism: maybe each group has a leader, and everyone can PM his leader, or maybe there's only daytime.
memorable Crola quotes:
"scummy is my play style"
"I don't think we should trust anyone, I think you're all liars and murderers fisrt off"
"It's never too late to random vote"
I don't see why Vigilantes should be any more hesitant to kill than the town should be hesitant to lynch, really. They don't have a chance to claim, sure, but is that really that big a factor?
[size=75]Stats:
Pro-Town: 14 of 17 games
Doctor: 3 of 17 games
Cop: 2 of 17 games
Wins: 12 of 17 games
Lynched Scum: 16 of 27 lynches
Vig-killed Scum: 1 of 1 vig-kills
Survived/NightKilled/Lynched: 5/11/1 games
[/size]
Often, vigilantes who kill haphazardly will be accused of being serial killers with no evidence to clear those suspicions. So, I think they do have to be more careful. His own life and the town's win are at stake (Lynches provide discussion, vig kills can only be speculated about unless you wanna die.)
Vigilantes killing left right and centre tend to shorten the game drastically (even your standard large game, if there's one vig killing every night from Night 2 onwards, the game is probably going to be in end-game by Day 4). By shortening the game, there's less vocal discussion about how to proceed, fewer days in which to see new reactions, new bandwagons, etc. So vigs definitely should be more hesitant to kill as it isn't just about thinning numbers - the daytime discussion is the crux of the game.
That said I'm not sure I entirely agree that one-shot vigs are practically equivalent to unlimited vigs. While it's true that many good vigs do hold back and shoot only once or twice a game, I suspect that one-shot vigs are
even more hesitant
and hold back that one shot for a special occasion, knowing that if they get it wrong, they won't get a chance to make things better. This is just a gut feeling though, I can't actually back it up
zedmango wrote:Well, what I'd like to do is have a symmetrical game. What if there were two uninformed groups? You'd need some voting mechanism: maybe each group has a leader, and everyone can PM his leader, or maybe there's only daytime.
See Gay Mafia and Spy-Hunting Stand-down. It has potential--I myself am toying with the idea of a symmetrical game I call swing state (the name pretty much says it all)--but it can come off pretty badly. If you think day one is bad now, imagine one where everybody can't pretend to be on the same side.
MUNSCM Delegate for the United Kingdom
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. If you're not sure, contact me by PM.
