Mafia 90-Lolwat? Mafia, Game Over, Mafia Win

[orangepenguin]

I haven't had a chance to read the thread throughly, unfortunately- I have only skimmed, and the only thing I've been able to grasp is that Penguin outed the fact that he is a mason and how he thinks there might be scum in it, and later outed the rest of us by name.

It's my own fault, because I should've known that there was a thread for this, but I will get in the loop in the next few days. I only addressed that specifically, because he called me out by name, perhaps in an attempt to get me to speak, and perhaps my reactions to being on his "list of people willing to lynch".

As for Vino, just by skimming him, from what I've seen is that he has a clear opinion on the mason claim matter. He thinks that it's likely that there is scum and he and Penguins disagree on a lot of stuff. I don't really see anything too scummy from Vino myself, but then again, if I took my time, things might look different in that light. I don't reallly have any clear opinions, but I don't like how Penguins went about outing the masons, even though he has a legit reason for doing so, but there was probably a better way to catch mason members whom are scum, if there are scum, which I believe, like Vino, that it's very likely, given the amount of ppl in the mason group, and the fact the our pm doesn't verify the alignment of any of the others.

[Vino]

I was wondering. I heard someone say at some point that there are five masons. Maybe I heard wrong. However, I identified six mason players in play.

Lowell outed himself.
Serengeti outed herself.
Serengeti outed Koichi, Yos, orange, and #14

This adds to six, and was a point of consternation to me for some time. Anyway, it just demonstrates my point. She outed

all

of the masons other than Lowell.

Concerning Serengeti's mason-hunting, in my haste I quoted the wrong post from her last time:

This is not a conventional strategy, but perhaps we ought to consider lynching a mason today, or at least early in the game. Right now, randomly, we have a >16% chance of killing a scumbag if we lynch a mason. I doubt this scum mason is Lowell on account of the claim. I know I'm not a scum mason, but that's useless information for the rest of you. But from my vantage point, of the 4 remaining mason, there's a really good chance of hitting scum with >25% likelihood.

Okay. So, six masons. However, these numbers are from her viewpoint. From everybody else's viewpoint, if we have scum masons there are either five or four town masons. (Three is way too unlikely, I think everybody will agree.) So, in the case of five or four town masons we have either 20% or 25% chance of finding a scum mason. With three four or five scum you have 18-31% percent chance of hitting any scum. 16% is if there are two scum, but two scum in a 16 player game? I'm sorry but there are probably two scum

factions

, not two scum. Her numbers just don't add up to something that makes sense to out herself and four other masons. To me it looks like she's beefing them up to make it look like we should lynch masons.

What is the point

of outing

every single

mason? It makes absolutely no sense.

Somebody please explain

to me how it's a good thing that we lynch masons. I would rather a mason scum survive a few days than a mason townie die. We have plenty of other tools to route the scum, we can use cop investigations or lynch other mafia and look for connections to mason members. If we are able to route the scum, every mason townie turns into a confirmed townie, which makes town's job

ridiculously

easy. If we kill our confirmable townies then we have shot ourselves in the collective feet for the endgame.

While I'm at it, I should point out that Serengeti decided I was scum at 193 but didn't vote me until 297, after I had three or four other votes on me. That vote and alvin's are the two I view as scummy bandwagoning.

PS @ Honcho: There is a paper icon at the top left of every post. Right click/Copy link location

PPS @ Yos: If she plays town flippantly, what does she play scum like?

[orangepenguin]

Vino, there are indeed six people in our mason group, all of which have been revealed.

[Vino]

Happy birthday.

[GnKoichi]

Okay, so I agree that it is not scummy to have revealed all the Masons. This can be seen as a pro-town move, as it gives the town information that the scum assumably has or will have soon. However, Vino is right about one thing. If Penguins was scum, and a Mason, and knew that the rest of the Mason team was town, it would be a GREAT move to out us, saying he's trying to flush the scum members of the Masons out. He pushed the statistics, but those numbers don't mean anything if he knows he's the scum. It's unlikely he would be voted, since it was his plan to vote the Masons out. I don't see the town side of this move, so:

HoS: Penguins

That being said, can we PLEASE move past the Mason discussion and get back to the fact that Litral has been VERY scarce now that he's under fire. If he turns lurker in the face of a lynch, that means he has no good means of defending himself. Penguins & Litral could even be scum partners, with Penguins using the Mason tactic to distract everyone from the wagon against his partner [/stretch].

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

While I'm at it, I should point out that Serengeti decided I was scum at 193 but didn't vote me until 297, after I had three or four other votes on me. That vote and alvin's are the two I view as scummy bandwagoning.

My poor little heart was torn between wanting to lynch you, or the mason that was bus'ing you, namely, Yosarian.

[roflcopter]

i'd rather lynch vino

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

Okay, so I agree that it is not scummy to have revealed all the Masons. This can be seen as a pro-town move, as it gives the town information that the scum assumably has or will have soon. However, Vino is right about one thing. If Penguins was scum, and a Mason, and knew that the rest of the Mason team was town, it would be a GREAT move to out us, saying he's trying to flush the scum members of the Masons out.

Oh please lynch me; you'll find out my alignment, and narrow down the list of targets. Like, say, orangepenguin and Yosarian2 that had to remember both a scum team and a mason team, and seem to have got it mixed up.

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

i'd rather lynch vino

Me too, if Vino flips scum, Yosarian is 100% Greyhound-driving scum.

[Lowell]

God I love claiming mason. Some thoughts.

1) I opened a can of worms, clearly, that penguins jumped on. I'm not sure whether I'm happy or not. My question to

PoS: were you intending on outing the masons if I hadn't started the trend?

2) The reason I claimed mason originally (in addition to the fun of it) is that I wanted to preempt a mason defense by someone about to be strung up. I figured it would be a harder sell to let someone get to lynch - 1, have them claim mason, then have to jump in and explain why I can both confirm the claim but not the conclusion of the claim. I'd rather get the meta-discussions out of the way now rather than have to deal w/ them at deadline or near lynch, which would inevitably happen. I had no idea that PoS would jump on my posts the way she did.

3)

unvote

. I'm not opposed to lynching off masons to see what happens, but I agree with others on this.

vote vino

. His interest in the mason group (and who reveals who) exceeds any pro-town explanation.

[Lowell]

Oh, also, if you're at a party with

two

people named "penguins", you know the club has gotten too big.

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

1) I opened a can of worms, clearly, that penguins jumped on. I'm not sure whether I'm happy or not. My question to

PoS: were you intending on outing the masons if I hadn't started the trend?

I was considering it, seeing as how some masons were, against all mason role wisdom, voting against each other. No joke here, I really do think they confused their mason buddies with their scum buddies. There is no other explanation as to why they'd vote their mason buddies. Yosarian had to come up with some great old big excuse, as did orangepenguin, but it doesn't fly with me. Your first duty, as a mason, is to NOT vote other masons. If you do, you can totally discredit your mason buddies, and your own claim. And after you're dead, people can see that you voted a mason, and they will conclude that this mason you voted cannot possibly truly be a mason, doing terrible harm to the town.

You see the word MASON in your PM - that means there's a list of people you cannot vote for under any circumstance, except the express suspicion that there may be a scum mason.

I kinda outed myself and Yos early on, when I told Yos he should read his bloody PM more carefully. And he didn't say, as a mason should "oops I didn't mean to vote (insert name of mason buddy he voted for) at all, I was completely drunk and smoking crack and hallucinating heavily." He just kept on as if nothing had happened.

Now I'm sure Yos will respond to this with a lengthy and tiresome explanation about how he didn't backtrack on his mason vote because he didn't want to out the masons, but it is my opinion, which I predict he will dispute hotly, and once you breach the sacred mason code of honor of not voting against each other, it's better to out yourself.

[Lowell]

I vote for my mason buddies all the time, TBH. If they were in danger of lynch I wouldn't, but early on, certainly.

Also, TBH, I didn't even really read the list of mason partners in this game until just now when they started being outed. I got the PM, saw there were half a dozen names on it, and decided there were probably some scum there so it doesn't really matter who is in the group.

So if there's a reason to vote Yos, I'm not sure that's it.

[roflcopter]

good to see lowelltown being active

[Knight of Cydonia]

Happy birthday OP.

Vino... man, seriously.
Anyway, so, yeah. Vino or Yos for scum, and the Vino lynch could very possibly confirm the presence of scum mason/s. If there are more than 1 scum mason, I'd look at PoS next.

[Vino]

Me too, if Vino flips scum, Yosarian is 100% Greyhound-driving scum.

And if he flips town?

His interest in the mason group (and who reveals who) exceeds any pro-town explanation.

It's probably about time I start defending myself. I believe I am at L-2. All masons but two were already out when I began questioning Serengeti. Moreover, the reason I gave at the time, which GnKoichi just agreed with (see below) is that since scum know or will soon know all of the masons, town may as well know too.

The other charge against me is that I somehow "knew" there was a mafia mason. To any of those who still think I gave something that town wouldn't know, let me recap history for you:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 38#1447938

i'm guessing based on the wording of your post that your role pm does not gaurantee the alignment of your partners?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 57#1447957

I also don't believe that everybody in the mason group Lowell speaks of is likely to be town given its claimed size.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 39#1448039

No, it doesn't. And, given the size of the group, having them all confirmed town would be way too much of an advantage.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 89#1449089

It's certain that at least one is scum. Minimum of one. Maybe even two.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 45#1449545

Uhh, Vino, you're still implying that you know who at least one of the scum in the mason group are.

(What he meant was, implying I know that there is at least one scum. I made no indication that I know exactly who it is.)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 93#1449593

I actually don't care who the masons are. Like I said it doesn't matter to me, half of them are scum anyways,

and the scum already know

or will know shortly

who they are

, so town might as well know too.

Remarkable insight into what scum knows.

(Compare with "I agree that it is not scummy to have revealed all the Masons" from GnKoichi)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 37#1449637

There is a difference between other people's posts, that have said that there's a pretty good chance there is a scum, and your posts, which seemed to imply you already knew there was a scum mason.

Conclusion: I used logic and built from the assertions of others and came to conclusions which, when not immediately obvious to others who didn't understand the logic, voted me as scum due to having new information and started a bandwagon.

The other issue was me saying "half of" the masons are scum, which would mean three, which makes no sense given I've never stated I think there are three scum masons, and I don't think it's likely, and I think the statements claiming I was being literal with the term are efforts to unfairly paint me as scum.

Prove me wrong or unvote me, and we can move on and talk about something else, like the real scum tells that other players have been giving off for days.

Vino lynch could very possibly confirm the presence of scum mason/s.

No it wouldn't. I'm not a mason, and moreover I'm not scum. I don't see how I've established any ties to any mason players, given I've criticized them all unilaterally.

[roflcopter]

vino, the mason thing is not the only reason you're getting lynched

[Empking's Alt]

I'm happy with my vote. Its like Penguins didn't even remember why she attacked Yos in the first place.

[StrangerCoug]

Right now I want to hurt Penguins of the Serengeti. Outing the entire mason group because you think some of them are scum trying to bus each other? Since when was that fair for the town-aligned masons?

Major HoS: Penguins of the Serengeti

. I agree that Litral's obvscum comments about the jester and all are being ignored, which is why I'm leaving my vote on him.

[Head_Honcho]

vino, the mason thing is not the only reason you're getting lynched

Um, read the last couple pages and see if you still think that.

Enough people are on this bandwagon that I guess it can't be a complete scum push, but logically it's very unsound. I get a townie vibe from Vino and oppose this lynch. Especially considering he hasn't played in a game with masons before, I don't see how his reaction to the presence of a mason group is being regarded as the biggest scum tell so far.

[GnKoichi]

Litral hasn't posted in three days. I'm going to ask for a

prod

.

[roflcopter]

hmm

upon reconsideration, litral lynch and vino lynch are equally good in my mind

[StrangerCoug]

hmm

upon reconsideration, litral lynch and vino lynch are equally good in my mind

Right now I'm betting good money on at least two of those two players, Penguins of the Serengeti, and Yosarian2 being scum.

[Lowell]

PoS might have been misguided to out everyone (I'm still not sure) but I don't think her motives are bad. If there's a mason-wagon to be had, I think it should be on yos or numberfourteen.

[Yosarian2]

I kinda outed myself and Yos early on, when I told Yos he should read his bloody PM more carefully. And he didn't say, as a mason should "oops I didn't mean to vote (insert name of mason buddy he voted for) at all, I was completely drunk and smoking crack and hallucinating heavily." He just kept on as if nothing had happened.

Well, duh, of course I didn't respond to that, because I was trying to avoid outing us as masons. I figured you would get the message, since I generally always respond to stuff people say, and that you'd realize I was intentioanlly not responding to THAT post because I didn't want to draw attention to it. Or, you know, that you might show some common sense and ask again at night, instead of giving away the roles of more then a quarter of the people in teh game for absolutly no reason. Foolish me.

Now I'm sure Yos will respond to this with a lengthy and tiresome explanation

Neah. Why would I bother responding to you at length? It's not like you ever read anything I say anyway once you decide I'm scum. This is like the 6th time you've done this, and you've never been swayed by logic before, even though you've been wrong every single time before; why should I bother?