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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:46 am

Post by Clu »

AndyTony wrote: And I find it odd that in sharing your thoughts on the situation, you failed to be as fair in the negative aspects of Emp's side - - You don't care to draw any attention toward his behavior and pestering?
No, because although pestering is annoying, it didn't strike me as relevant to rooting out scum. Besides, from what I understand from what you did say, this is the norm for Empking, so why should I be getting worked up about it? If this is how Empking usually acts, then there isn't really any indication either way is there?
AndyTony wrote:Think about it - I pointed out that the person he voted wasn't the only one who hadn't had a joke vote - I am indeed right as we agree - [/qupte]

That was not in fact what I said. My point was whilst the vote was not truly random, it was still a joke vote.

@Empking. No, it isn't true, but I don't think AT was lying, just getting the semantics mixed again.
fuzzylightning wrote: And I did agree that it wasn't random in the sense that I didn't just pick a name out of a hat so to speak, but it really is semantics and the whole argument was rather pointless.
Specifically the last part: I entirely agree. The entire argument about the Random or Joke votes or whatever you want to call them was useless, and AT was quibbling over a minor, minor point, although Empking went a little over the top with all of the 'This is a lie!' stuff.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:52 am

Post by Empking »

Clu wrote:
@Empking. No, it isn't true, but I don't think AT was lying, just getting the semantics mixed again.
How so?

You said (Paraphrasing) "It was a joke vote", he said (paraphrasing) "We agree it wasn't a joke vote."

I don't see the semantics.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:06 am

Post by Clu »

AT apparently assumed that when I said that whilst a vote could be not entirely random, it could still be a joke, that I meant 'Not random = not joke'

... Yeah, actually, I don't see where you got that from AT.
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:34 pm

Post by Uncle Pain »

Wow, being on a small trip for one day and a half in obviously enough to miss a whole argument. A rather odd one, that is. Like most of you, I don’t understand either how AndyTony came to his conclusion. I
can
imagine that Empking’s voting reason could have been taken seriously but what the hell for? I may be somewhat inexperienced (and also naive in this case) but I’ve never seen a serious vote on the first page. So my take on this is that AndyTony is overeager and/or overcautious; while I find it noteworthy, I don’t think it’s a scumtell at all. So let’s all calm down a bit and hunt scum, ok?
Some question that arose for me:
  • Empking
    : Do you think your vote is still justified?
  • fuzzylightning
    : What do you find scummier, Empking’s strong accusations or AndyTony’s flawed argument?
  • maadneet
    : What is your take on the whole argument?
  • AndyTony
    : Try to read the thread as if you were a thread visitor (i. e. not playing). Does this change your opinion on your argument against Empking?
  • Clu
    : Do you think the random voting stage is over?
  • ekiM
    : It may be off-topic but I’m interested why you find random voting retarded.
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:50 pm

Post by AndyTony »

@Uncle Pain

- Your question to FL suggests a "flaw" and "argument" - - I rather regard it as a misunderstanding over how one regarded a simple word - - And yes, I was being overcautious - - I've played with Emp enough to know that he often YES - votes for reasons much like the one he first gave, hence, based on his meta, I understandably INQUIRED as to just how serious it was - - - - The bulk of the head to head was me clarifying I wasn't lying.

- If I were reading it as a visitor, my immediate reaction would be a quizzical face followed by a frown lol - The "lies! Lies!" stuff bothered me because it had no base or reason or truth to it - - I don't like getting misrepresented when some random shouts nonesense about me - - I've heard this whole thing called a couple times an "Emp hole" -- I fell in one on this board and should have ignored him and trusted that other people would step in with some sense, but you're all new players to me for the most part - -

But yeah, I'd read it with disapproval on both parts, mine for humoring him.
-----------------------------

You seemed pretty friendly to ekim's position on our set up and role claiming - - can you express your thoughts in detail on the subject and explain your idea on the pros and cons to claiming?

If you can't - - were you just agreeing with him to make nice?
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:17 pm

Post by fuzzylightning »

@UP: I personally didn't really see anything inherently scummy about the beginning play by itself, as I believe I have previously stated, and I don't believe that I can give an objective answer to that right now because I will admit, I am biased against Empking in most cases because he doesn't normally provide much help to the town.

I have also seen votes for not random voting be entirely serious so I am not willing to discount Emp's vote as just a joke.

FoS: AT
for bringing meta into the discussion. Every game is different, and just because someone played one way in one game doesn't mean he/she is scum or town based on the way he/she is playing in this game.
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:26 pm

Post by Empking »

AndyTony wrote:@Uncle Pain

- Your question to FL suggests a "flaw" and "argument" - - I rather regard it as a misunderstanding over how one regarded a simple word - - And yes, I was being overcautious - - I've played with Emp enough to know that he often YES - votes for reasons much like the one he first gave, hence, based on his meta, I understandably INQUIRED as to just how serious it was - - - - The bulk of the head to head was me clarifying I wasn't lying.
And presumably the same is true for FL (?) as his vote was supposedly also not random.

UP: Yes.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:48 pm

Post by Clu »

Uncle Pain wrote:
Clu
: Do you think the random voting stage is over?
In my opinion, it ended as soon as Empking made his vote on AndyTony.
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:04 pm

Post by Empking »

UP: Why do you think my accusations are stronger than AT's?
Plus, if you guys want to make a point, skip the walls, because everyone else in the game does as well. - Magister Ludi
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:27 am

Post by AndyTony »

Because I'm not attacking you as scum Emp, I haven't called you it, FoS'd you, or Voted you - - I spent that head to head defending myself from being called a liar.

--------------------------------
fuzzylightning wrote:@UP: I personally didn't really see anything inherently scummy about the beginning play by itself, as I believe I have previously stated, and I don't believe that I can give an objective answer to that right now because
I will admit, I am biased against Empking in most cases because he doesn't normally provide much help to the town.


I have also seen votes for not random voting be entirely serious so I am not willing to discount Emp's vote as just a joke.


FoS: AT
for bringing meta into the discussion.
Every game is different, and just because someone played one way in one game doesn't mean he/she is scum or town based on the way he/she is playing in this game.
In all fairness, your bias is a form of basing your gameplay and regard for a player on meta as well - I'm just the first to have voiced it. And I too have seen serious votes in the random stage/weak arguments for votes - and it's from Emp mostly - - for anyone that's played with him, he'll vote someone passionately with very little to go on, hence I inquired about the vote, I didn't attack.
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:41 am

Post by Empking »

AndyTony wrote:And Emp - fuzzy lightning is another, in fact the first: to not random vote.

are you eager for a wagon to seem legit?
What was that?
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:33 am

Post by AndyTony »

I was asking you a question - you could have said "no" - it was page one - conversation is good.
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:03 am

Post by Spolium »

--------------------------------------------------
Vote Count


L-2
AndyTony (
Clu, Empking
)
L-3
Uncle Pain (
AndyTony
)
L-3
Empking (
fuzzy
)
L-3
Clu (
Uncle Pain
)
L-3
fuzzylightning (
maadneet
)
L-4
ekiM (
Empking
)
L-4
maadneet

With 7 alive, it takes
4
to lynch.

Deadline:
Wed 13/05/2009, 22:00 UTC (clicky)
--------------------------------------------------
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:54 pm

Post by ekiM »

AndyTony wrote:The role claim position you have is a difference of opinions, I'd just prefer to stick to mine (though I'm open minded)
Well, no. You said "anyone who claims is beyond foolish", which is not open minded, and is also... wrong.

If a doctor is on the chopping block and someone is ready to hammer, he should totally claim to try and save himself for the day. He's probably going to die that night, but it's still better to use the lynch trying to find scum and force the scum to use their NK on the doc. I'm pretty sure this is well-established Mafia theory.
Uncle Pain wrote:ekiM: It may be off-topic but I’m interested why you find random voting retarded.
Fairly off-topic I think, but I will aim for a concise answer. If it's the norm that every player places spurious votes initially, those votes are null-tells and cannot be used for serious scumfinding. Yet that's exactly what the RVS and the immediate follow up is - white noise, followed by trying to spot non-existant patterns in white noise.

I'd rather games start off with discussion of setup, strategy, tactics, previous experiences with similar games and players... anything other than trying to create meaning where there is none.

Also I'd like to retract the use of the pejorative 'retarded' because I know some people find it offensive to the mentally disabled.
AndyTony wrote:You seemed pretty friendly to ekim's position on our set up and role claiming - - can you express your thoughts in detail on the subject and explain your idea on the pros and cons to claiming?



If you can't - - were you just agreeing with him to make nice?
This is just odd. My position on claiming is sensible and non-controversial. To try and insinuate someone is buddying up for agreeing with it is odd.

The sense I get is that AndyTony is trying very hard to initiate scumhunting in this game, but all his attempts seem weird to me. He's picking up on things I don't find scummy at all. I don't yet know whether this is because he has a different POV from me, or because he is arguing in bad faith.

Mod: Prod maadneet? It has been three days.
- maadneet prodded.
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:37 am

Post by AndyTony »

I'm open minded about the claiming in a sense where all situations can vary and none of us can determine the future - - What I find foolish is planning ahead. I only have a handful of games under my belt, and each one has a new situation - - this situation, that called for what you discussed on that page, is new for me - - one thing that isn't new, is I've found in mafia that there are multiple approached to ALL scenarios - and when role claiming i agreeably a "no-no" - I immediately assumed suggesting otherwise was iffy.

You've explained what you prefer in exchange to random voting, and it makes sense - however, I've yet to encounter that, so surely you'd understand why it would strike me as odd - - my POV is indeed different because the first thing I saw was "Someone trying to take a leadership role/force pro-town image" on themselves on the first page.

And once again - I'm asking someon a question - conversation is good. I'm either going to know his position on your early post as well, and his opinion/thoughts (you know. Conversation.) - - And I never said anything about buddying up - I wanted to know if it was making nice (all in good opening discussion, being kind and civil in the greeting to the extent of compliments on screen names, questions about avatars etc).

If you find something wrong with that, I'm always happy to answer questions, otherwise I kind of find it opportunistic of you to be focusing soley on me while when all of your suspicions can be thrown out the window based on as you put it "a difference in pov and just scumhunting" - - is it because I've got the most posts up so far? That would make sense, I guess - it influences attention
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:38 am

Post by AndyTony »

Unvote
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:46 am

Post by ekiM »

You find planning ahead foolish? I would have thought the opposite belief would be more natural. As this is an open game we have been appraised of the set-up possibilities and can consider likely scenarios that may come up and good possible responses. Of course, circumstances may dictate a deviation from the plan, but that doesn't mean it's preferable to have no plan at all.

I also wanted to ensure we didn't have any unfortunate situations where someone claims Doc and is counter-claimed by a deputy, or similar slip-ups caused by not fully understanding the set-up and its implications.
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:08 am

Post by AndyTony »

I can see your intentions - but even you agree that curcumstances make us deviate from plans - it's those kind of things I'd like to be cognizant of - I'm against planning because 1. the person who makes the plan is often regarded somewhat more town for doing so, and can in some instances attain a leadership role 2. A plan may narrow our minds to all possibilities and cast a veil on gameplay

Those are the general reasons for me, as for this game in particular, there's no reason to fault you on offering logic with good intention, but in a game where we can't prove intention, you can understand my curiosity
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:37 am

Post by ekiM »

1. So are you against any action that might cast someone in a pro-town light? That seems so astoundingly backwards that I don't really know what to say. I offered my thoughts on the set-up, because I thought it would help. Other people were free to do the same. Or not.

2. It was a pretty general plan, dude. I'm not even sure it's worth calling a plan. More like "some observations on the implications of the set-up". It hardly precluded thinking about our options when it comes to it. Why is it a bad thing if we think a little bit about potential upcoming situations before they happen?

Does this "no plans, ever" philosophy apply only to Mafia or do you apply it in other walks of life?
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:56 am

Post by AndyTony »

First off - no need for personal jabs

1. Even you called it a plan and in 66 suggested specifically this one being beneficial and that you planned it because you "didn't want deputy to counter-claim cop"

2. I'm all for town players, I'd appreciate you not branching negative connotation to my thoughts in an attempt to lash at me, it's cheap -

What I'm not for is page one, post one plan making in an attempt for a pro town leadership role - It's far to early for such things and it's not just an opinion, it is indeed a plan as you agree in your posts (general or not, a plan is a plan)
ekiM wrote:
Just so everybody is completely clear on this
: We have one power role and one backup. The power role was selected with 50% chance to be either a cop or a doc. The backup was selected with an independent 50% chance to be either a deputy or a nurse. This means we are guaranteed exactly one of Cop/Doc, but have only a 50% chance that the backup role corresponds to the power role.

The power role knows who they are, and that there is a 50% chance that if they are killed they will be backed up.
One might be tempted to say
that a potentially replaceable power role could be less concerned for their own safety than usual,
but it's probably best to
assume a worst-case scenario and play as normal. If threatened with a hammer, claim as usual. Counter-claim false power role claims as you see fit, but assume nothing if a backup is claimed.

The backup will know that they are the backup, and there is a 50% chance that the power role matches with them.
One might be tempted to say
that a potential power role replacement might take into account their own safety more than a vanilla townie would,
but it's probably best to play as if
you were a vanilla townie.
If threatened with hammer, claim. Counter-claim false backup claims
, but think carefully on the best course of action if a power role is claimed.
In the above, do you see where it might seem like a plan?
ekiM wrote:I offered my thoughts on the set-up, because I thought it would help.
Other people were free to do the same. Or not.
I'm not gonna lie - you're not making me feel like it's alright to casually be opposed to it - - I'm not trying to grill you man, but you're implying I'm suspicious and made a personal attack on my private life and how I "plan" it - pretty uncool, dude -

I've only put these two quotes up to point out to you where I read certain signals to suggest it's a plan, and a rather one sided one (not open minded to other ppl) - It's not an attack, I think it's best to call it you and I exchanging POV (since you said they were off)
-----
In you plan, you suggest what we might do with our free will - then slash it with "but you should do this..." more than once

You make statements about the gameplay, and you don't suggest you're spitballin' ideas or anything, it comes across as a plan, and I'm just EXPRESSING how I feel about someone's FIRST POST being a PLAN because it seems like an off the bat attempt to seem pro town and take leadership.

There's nothing wrong with ppl being regarded as such, but it happens naturally and without trying, it simply comes through in the gameplay - - it doesn't get manufactured post one, page one - - That's my only thought.

If you were sharing a thought you had on the set up, you would have worded how you thought the set up was, and pointed out "Could be trouble when claiming" - - that's understandable

But you went so far as to suggest play approaches and what to do in scenarios to come, and that is very much a plan.

Are we on the same page yet?
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:09 am

Post by ekiM »

No. It's absurd to complain that someone has posted thoughts about the set-up and how best to play rather than issuing a pointless random vote.

I'm not interested in an inane semantic argument over what is and is not a plan.
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:11 am

Post by AndyTony »

Fair enough, man - I don't fault you for not being a fan of random voting, I understand you position completely - We'll agree to disagree on whether it was a plan - I only wanted to share the same way you did (about random voting) about how I FELT about such a thing -

We'll agree you didn't do it
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:18 am

Post by ekiM »

No. It doesn't matter to me whether you call it a plan or not, but I did do things --- analyse the set-up, suggest possible actions in certain situations --- that you have said you have a problem with.

It makes no sense to me that you have a problem with them, but apparently you do. So let's not pretend that you do not.
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:24 am

Post by AndyTony »

Well I don't want us to pretend I don't have an opinion lol

And making listing possible actions in certain situations to come...as you put it...has a definition in my books - I'd appreciate us not resorting back to "semantics" over anything I say, it seems like an easy cop out - I only wanted you to consider my opinion fairly - I've considered yours, and am formally telling you that I'm not a fan of planning such a thing as claiming, or planning as early as post one, page one - - If you feel it's not what you were doing, then I APOLOGIZE - and only hope you can look at what I'm telling you as an opinion, is all - there was no need for personal jabs, ignorant remarks about semantics etc.

Because I you can't prove the good intentions behind that first post
And I can't prove any possible bad intentions
I'm more than happy to let it lie - I'm not trying to press you up against the wall, no need to to be on hind legs here.

but yeah - I'd like to not pretend my opinions don't exist, please...
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:24 am

Post by AndyTony »

EBWOP* - - "And listing 'possible actions in certain situations' to come..."
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