Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Kmd4390]

I blame not knowing any of you guys. And 1 hours sleep last night.

I slept for about 4 hours this morning.

ok, let's go sleep now, come back tomorrow, and re-assess the entire game, k?

BM

Can't. I'm working from 10AM to 4PM and from 6PM to 11PM tomorrow. Maybe when I get home though. Or maybe I can come home in between. I live a half an hour away from work.

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Mastin (5): Zachrulez, Benmage, VP Baltar, Debonair Danny DiPietro, SensFan
Battle Mage (2): Mastin, GIEFF
GIEFF (1): Kmd4390
Cephrir (1): jammer
jammer (1): Kairyuu
Zachrulez (1): SpyreX
SensFan (1): alexhans
Benmage (1): camn
VP Baltar (1): Battle Mage


Not Voting: Cephrir

8 to lynch

[Kmd4390]

Jammer, Kairyuu, Spy, Alex, Camn, and BM: Who are you suspicious of other than the person you are voting?

Ceph, who are you suspicious of?

----------------

My second suspect is alexhans FTR.

[GIEFF]

Here is my hypothesis for Battle Mage's internal thought process that would describe his voting behavior, assuming he is scum:

• Voting for Mastin
  : He didn't like the fact that Mastin's hypothesis led to assuming BM-scum, and therefore attacked it. He didn't find Mastin scummy, but wanted to discredit any theory that would suggest scum-Battle Mage.
  
  
• Building a case on alex
  (110, 113, 142, and 212): As BM admitted, the cornerstone of BM's case was alex's over-reaction to the Mastin-wagon (which I agree was scummy). But the reason BM threw in so many extraneous, not-scummy snippets in 113 was to appear to be scumhunting, and maybe even throw so much crap at the wall that some of it sticks, and it leads to a lynch. Note that this attack on alex caused BM to reverse his previous suspicion of Mastin, which lends support to the theory that it wasn't ever genuine anyway.
  
  
• Un-voting alex
  (213): Although BM claims to still be suspicious of alex, he realizes the alex-wagon isn't going anywhere, so hops on the next-biggest wagon.
  
  
• Voting for GIEFF
  (213): At the time BM bailed from the alex-wagon (just ONE post after a mega-large quote-war wall), both Mastin and myself had 2 votes, and both were the largest wagons. BM wanted to get on a big wagon, and hopping BACK on the Mastin wagon would be even more schizophrenic, so BM decides to follow camn and Sens onto my wagon. He provides absolutely
  no
  reasoning at the time, provides absolutely
  no
  reasoning later, and gives me absolutely
  no
  pressure.
  
  
• Unvoting GIEFF
  (353): He never really found me suspicious anyway, and camn and Sensfan had since unvoted.
  
  
• Voting VP Baltar
  (353): No idea what he means by VP's reaction to Mastin, but it's pretty clear he doesn't really find VP that scummy, as he doesn't even remember voting for him.

BM: if you are town, you will obviously have very different reasonings for your voting pattern, so feel free to present them. I have a particularly hard time trying to think of why a townie would:

• So readily assume that alex-scum mean Mastin town, after previously thinking Mastin is scum.
  
• Jump off of the alex-wagon just one post after making a huge post about him, and with alex not having assuaged any of the suspicion that you claimed required a "serious wagon."
  
• Hop on the biggest wagon, with no reasoning, not post anything of substance for 2 days, and then hop off that wagon once it fizzles
  
• FORGET that he hopped off that wagon.

[GIEFF]

Battle Mage:

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayNewbie 688[col]Scum[col]1.3[col]0.5US Election Mafia[col]Scum[col]1.9[col]0.6Newbie 763[col]Scum[col]1.4[col]0.6Newbie 770[col]Town[col]3.8[col]1.7Freelancer Mafia[col]Town[col]1.9[col]0.4Mafia 82[col]Town[col]2.8[col]0.9Traitor Mafia[col]Town[col]1.3[col]0.2Choose Carefully Mafia[col]Town[col]1.6[col]0.3Crackers Mafia[col]Town[col]4.1[col]0.7Return to New Catania[col]Town[col]2.6[col]0.5Mafia 83[col]Town[col]2[col]0.4This Game[col]?[col]5[col]3.2

Battle Mage posts about 600 characters per day when town or scum, but posts about 1.5 times a day as scum, and 2.5 times a day as town. This doesn't support my case on BM, but I am still very happy with my vote for him.

[camn]

I am constantly amazed that you can do that stuff.. . but if you ignore your own stats.. then what is the point?

@KMD.. this weekend I will try and round up who the scum are. Right now I am kind of just keeping up. God forbid I play into the "NOT HUNTING=SCUM" meta....
Hmm...
I would like to see the stats on how often that is true.

Does building crappy cases on Day 1 make you a townie?
Does NOT building cases on Day 1 make you scum?

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

[Kmd4390]

Actively and genuinely scumhunting is townie. Not scumhunting at all is scummy.

[GIEFF]

I am constantly amazed that you can do that stuff.. . but if you ignore your own stats.. then what is the point?

I'm not ignoring it. I would not use posts/day meta as a sole reason for determining alignment. In BM's case, his other actions far outweigh the fact that he tends to post more often as town, and has posted very often in this game.

Not scumhunting at all is scummy.

Yes.

BM's play in this game is a great example of why scum don't like scumhunting - it's hard to remain consistent in your suspicion when that suspicion is faked to begin with.

[Kmd4390]

It's more that it sets them up to take on any opinion they want. I never find remaining consistent as a problem as scum.

[GIEFF]

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

Which means your OMGUS-vote of me is yet another example of you behaving in a way you think will make you seem to be town rather than behaving in a way that is likely to catch scum.

[camn]

Is that what it means?

What about the fact that I had a vote on you before you even started to get on my case? What does that mean?

[GIEFF]

But you unvoted me before my meta-analysis.

You wouldn't call your re-vote OMGUS?


And I didn't think your first vote was at all serious. Was it?

[camn]

I thought you already knew what I meant by everything?!

[GIEFF]

I thought you already knew what I meant by everything?!

So I assume this means you are going to help me lynch Battle Mage?


We have enough arguing between each other WITHOUT you dodging my questions, camn. I assume you think your second vote for me was OMGUS (and also because you thought I was trying to push a crapcase on you), and I assume your first vote was 0% serious. Are either of these assumptions wrong?

[camn]

OK......I want you to read this twice because you don't seem to be able to get it.

I gave you reasons for my revote.
I even told you later that it wasn't OMGUS.

Yet here you are, asking me AGAIN.
Why do you do this?
Why ask things that you can easily just read?

Are you paying attention?
Are you ignoring what you don't like?
Are you just trying to inflate your appearance of 'scumhunting'?

Which is it?

[Kmd4390]

Which is it?

He's BSing a case to see if anyone will follow it.

[camn]

Totally.
And to think.. I joined this game cuz I wanted to play with him again!

[GIEFF]

The use of the word "OMGUS" is irrelevant. I ask you again because I think your vote was OMGUS, no matter what you claim. But arguing about something so narrow will get us nowhere - let's drop that subject, as it's not really relevant to the point I am trying to make.

THIS is the point I am trying to make, which doesn't depend on our definitions of OMGUS. You said:

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

You think that townies get mad when people call them scummy. You went over-the-top mad on me when I called you scummy.

You are trying to act like you think townies act, instead of trying to catch scum.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Your vote didn't make a lot of sense to me from a scumhunting perspective, but an explanation that DOES make sense is that you were trying to make yourself look like a townie. Townies want to make themselves look like townies too, but scum prioritize this, as you have done.

I would not have noticed it if you hadn't done it twice before, as I said in post 338:

Are you two saying that it would make sense for ME AS SCUM to AVIOD voting lurkers?
Really?
Cuz I often get called SCUMMY for VOTING lurkers!

Of COURSE that makes sense. Lurkers are bad for the town. Why would scum want to remove them?

This also shows that

you are tailoring your behavior to what you think others will perceive as scummy

.

The reason I voiced my support is because, if I see a filthy lurker at L-1, I will hammer, and I don't want you guys saying it "came out of nowhere" just because you are too lazy to check my meta.
HOWEVER, I have been catching shit for lurker-tunneling lately.. so I am trying to cool it a little.

This is also a very revealing quote into camn's mindset this game.

Note how she says

she is only voicing support because she is afraid of pressure on HERSELF - she is NOT voicing support because she wants to catch scum

. This is what Mastin was guilty of, focusing on proving your own innocence to the detriment of catching any scum.

Your post-facto claim that getting angry at someone who votes you is a town-tell is simply a third example showing your strong desire to be viewed as town, and so I brought it up. As Mastin did in the first two pages, you have, throughout the game, put WAY more focus on looking townie than on scumhunting.

-----

He's BSing a case to see if anyone will follow it.

No, I am pointing out behavior that I think is scummy, and explaining why I think it's scummy. If you don't agree with me, tell me why, or even better, let camn do it. Just saying "That case is BS" helps nothing. What if camn is scum?

Totally.
And to think.. I joined this game cuz I wanted to play with him again!

Appeal to emotion.

[camn]

Question 1.
Are you saying I am FAKING being annoyed with you?

Question 2:
Did you notice that I don't believe in town tells? That I actually said that OMGUS is null?

Question 3: why would you misrep me that way? Once again, you ignore reality...

[Kmd4390]

The use of the word "OMGUS" is irrelevant. I ask you again because I think your vote was OMGUS, no matter what you claim.

So you keep asking, knowing her opinion and not being willing to change your own? How does that make sense unless you are trying to make sure everyone else sees the vote as OMGUS?

No, I am pointing out behavior that I think is scummy, and explaining why I think it's scummy. If you don't agree with me, tell me why, or even better, let camn do it. Just saying "That case is BS" helps nothing. What if camn is scum?

Well, my read on you is obviously scum to begin with. You don't seem to actually believe your case and you are repeating the same thing AFTER SHE ANSWERS just to get the points, that are crap to begin with, across. You are trying to push this probable mislynch.

Totally.
And to think.. I joined this game cuz I wanted to play with him again!

Appeal to emotion.

Unrelated throwaway comment that can be seen as buddying. Camn does this. One of the things I like about playing with her. She makes games fun. (That's the reason

I

joined this game. )

[camn]

You said:

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

Remember this ???

You even went so far as to edit out the part of my quote that mentioned your over-reaction.

[Kmd4390]

You said:

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

Remember this ???

You even went so far as to edit out the part of my quote that mentioned your over-reaction.

Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

[camn]

I think he is trying the KMD GAMBIT... but I am the only person in the history of MS.NET dumb enough to actually fall for it....

[GIEFF]

camn, picking one part out of my post and claiming it is wrong does not negate the larger point I am making. You can't deny that your focus has been more toward being viewed as town than as finding scum because you have spent almost no effort finding scum.


1. No, I don't think you are faking being annoyed at me. I do think that a very plausible explanation for your over-reaction is that it looks townie to get angry, and you had done zero scumhunting up to that point, so it at least gave you a non-random vote. I can see either town or scum doing this, as it serves both aligments' interests. But it is a GREATER concern of scum, and that is the issue.

2. It doesn't matter what YOU believe. It matters what you think others believe, or are trying to get them to believe. You are post-facto explaining your behavior as, if anything, a town-tell. Just because YOU call it null doesn't mean others will.

3. I am not misrepping you, and I am not ignoring reality. Are you really claiming that your statement about OMGUS was NOT meant to make yourself look townie? That is demonstrably false. LYING about trying to look townie is a lot worse than trying to look townie.

Here is alex's quote that you were responding to:

Camn... if you wanna know so you can OMGUS me too. Yes, you're acting scummy. OMGUS, evasiveness, lack of scumhunting, odd reactions to questions, you're recoiling too much...

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

2 things here are as clear as day:

1. You were trying to say that you are not scummy.
2. You did not deny OMGUS.


Yet when I make the claim that you are trying hard to be seen as not scummy, you fight it tooth and nail. When I make the claim that your vote was OMGUS, you fight it tooth and nail. Why?

[camn]

2 things here are as clear as day:

1. You were trying to say that you are not scummy.

2. You did not deny OMGUS.

A) OMGUS is not a scumtell.

B) My vote for you was for crapcase, not OMGUS

C) One could argue that your entire attack on me was OMGUS for my voting you earlier.
D) I'm calmer'n you are. Calmer'n you are.

Oh, I didn't deny it?
Still not paying attention to reality, huh?