Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[alexhans]

DeathRowKitty has been unprodded.

DeathRowKitty was V/LA, my bad... I missed it because it wasn't bolded... remember to try to at least direct the messages to me as MOD so I don't miss them...

DeathRowKitty's vote on IK was wrong from #15 onwards... I'm changing that right now.

[alexhans]

Those in danger of suppression #18:

DeathRowKitty (1)

-

jasonT1981

DTMaster (1)

-

don_johnson

don_johnson (2)

-

DTMaster, Idiotking

hiphop (2)

-

Zachrulez, ryan2754

Idiotking (2)

-

RedCoyote, hiphop

jasonT1981 (1)

-

DeathRowKitty

toro (2)

-

Paradoxombie, Shrinehme

Not Voting (1)

-

Toro

Happiness with Posting Level:

SATISFIED

Deadline:

Tuesday 25th - 1000 hs (GMT - 3)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

[Shrinehme]

Noting how easily DTMaster/IKing were willing to take their vote off for dj... guess they didn't support their own original votes so much.
Also noting dj's refusal to show us

what about

IKing warranted a vote.

Nothing good came from that, I hope you know. Disclosing which players have power roles helps scum in that they gain a better idea of which players are more worthwhile to target. If anyone is going to be hit at Night, we want it to be a Vanilla Townie. It gives the power roles more life and gives the Town, in general, an edge against scum.

okay. at this point, would you say i am a worthwhile target for nk? by virtue of my playstyle i tend to avoid being killed at night. check my meta if you need to. by claiming the role but not divulging what it is makes it even less likely that i will be killed at night which makes it more likely that i will make a successful night action. kind of a trade off. and if scum nk's me and succeeds, well then, you will know exactly who and what i am. end result, no harm done.

- You can't really credit not being killed at Night to yourself; lol. Other players decide your fate in this game; you have very little control over it.
- Speculating whether Scum will decide it's worthwhile to kill you initiates too much WIFOM for my taste. I'm sure power roles appeal to them, though.
- Um, YES. Harm done. No good comes from losing a power role. <_<

[ryan2754]

You are wrong there, did you read what idk said in 385.

What does IK's 385 have to do with you being scapegoat and me laying my case. I am not seeing the connection.

Why should I try to defend myself to you? So that we can have another quotewar, basically saying that I made mistakes in the beginning, and should consent to the fact. I made it easy for you. I wasn’t going to argue my point to someone as stubborn as you. You wouldn’t change your mind anyways, especially concerning me.

Because you don't want to get lynched? No, you can easily defend yourself without spurring a quotewar. I am not actually that stubborn of a person. Yes, I would, but you seem to think defending yourself would be futile because you think I'm being stubborn.

No wonder you have a losing record as a townie. You always are waiting for scum to make a “scum tell”(which is a matter of opinion), when sometimes are not anymore scummy than the town.

1-2 is hardly a good measure or someone's ability. 3 games is not a good sample size. Trying to use my record for my play is a fairly bad argument, and sort of seems like bringing irrelevant information in to try and discredit my opinion and argument, aka sort of strawmanning. Many scumtells are not matters of opinion, they have been found to lead to scum more often than not. Granted, a single scumtell is fairly pointless, as even townies do scumtells. But an accumulation of scumtells is more indicative of scum, and voting patterns/analysis on top of that.

Since this might turn into an argument about interpretation of FoS, I want you to define how you use FoS and if you can meta link to show how you use FoS in the same way. It will clarify things here since I see FoS as more serious accusations (with more backing) then pointing out just one scum sign.

Yes, I obviously don't use the same definition for FOS as the wiki. I rarely use FOS, but mainly do it when I am in the middle of a lengthy post and find something suspicious, and want to show it to the rest of the game. Something in bold saying FOS is much easier to notice for others than just, that's suspicious, when in a lengthy post. I actually CAN show you a game where I played in and used FOS as that sort of thing, and actually voted someone completely different. I made my replace-in post, it was lengthy, and FOS'd 3 people, and caught flak for it.
Mini781:http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11339 Post 122

2. The reasoning behind why I stated that was: you did not pursue more on paradox. Reading the original post was reading your case on hiphop, more then your reasoning behind your FoS on paradox. (Like I said earlier, it wasn't clear since you combined so many ideas into one post). If you really felt that the FoS had some merit to it, you would point it out like your 404 and do some side scum hunting. To me this either reads as the following: tunneling on hiphop, ineffective scum hunting, or someone who doesn't want to push the paradox envelope because she is considered as non-suspicious.

Yes, I concede the point that may be tunnelling on hiphop in that post and not looking more at paradox. But, save that little FOS, I have found paradox to be town.

3. What don't you like about DRK's 337?

It's an extremely hypothetical situation that leads to a lot of WIFOM and doesn't really give any relevant information, IMO. It seems like a subtle form of lining up lynches.

5. Um I disagree that townies should always be defensive to prevent a mislynch. When faced with a mistake or error, it is much better to admit to it then to try and defend that action. It just fuels the "defensiveness argument", which might lead into a "white lie", "overreactions" and "over analyzing situation".

I see your side of the argument, and had not ever really seen it like that.

Besides one of the best defenses as a townie when faced with a strong case against them is to scumhunt and outline an offensive case as the defense (ie make a good case on someone else). Playing too defensively in that situation can be easily turned into scum's favour.

And I have always felt that someone under attack can mount a defense, AND scumhunt.


Don't like DJ's town PR softclaim. The transpiring events are rather interesting. I think that what was blown out of proportion, to be honest. I think Don's vote making sense, considering everyone knew what was going on in RVS with IK. I just think people blew it out of proportion. Granted his defense of the situation on his vote/reasoning, saying "Not much time, I'm a PR, let's stop this discussion," is a copout.

I would be supportive of an IK, Toro, or hiphop lynch.

[DTMaster]

@RC

Response your 444:

No I disagree that a townie should just get their vote on the table when they are

not fully informed of the most recent activity

, even if this is day one. I don't mind point out suspicion based on the earlier comments, but I expect a person at least to read the most recent pages. An informed vote is much better then an uninformed vote.

@Shrine
I thought I said I voted for a pressure vote, I guess I wasn't clear enough. My 414 was before the claim, my willing to move it was shown after the claim.

@Myself
After some reflection, I hand the towel to don. Don will reply as he wills and depending on the night results I'll continue my case on him. That doesn't mean I'll let you go without answering me once you have caught up on the game.

IGMEOY: don

Personally I favour a Toro lynch above IK or Jason. If you read his posts in isolation you'll see very little analyzation and very little content to get a read on.

Jason posted a very good summary post in his ISO 16, but twisted his ankle with his DRK case.

IK gave us a good read with his quote wars, and his most recent vote on don (similar arguments that apply to me apply to IK as well). I was hesitant to vote for IK due to his town meta, but a lot of scum points were added on in the recent exchange.

Toro though played the newbie card (at least from my perspective he did) when he wasn't one. (See Toro's 393, 400 )

He doesn't actively scum hunt, the closest was in his iso 11, which is 17 days ago from that post (take into account he was V/LA though) But he does defend Hiphop in his ISO 29 and 31, abet the points are already known then.

He admits he was going with the flow in his ISO 18.

A lot of his statements make him look like he is actively lurking. A pro-town player should be going into the fray and getting information, not potentially starting fires here and there. (See ISO 23 and 24, 32)

I'm open again to the other two like RC is but Toro reads as: very lurkerish which is dangerous to keep up since it's anti-town (note not necessarily scummy, but very anti-town). His contributions to the town are very nil and I want to see more done if he really is town aligned.

Unvote

Vote: Toro

[Shrinehme]

@Shrine
I thought I said I voted for a pressure vote, I guess I wasn't clear enough. My 414 was before the claim, my willing to move it was shown after the claim.

Ah, I see. I didn't go back to double-check, and I should have. My bad.

[Idiotking]

*sigh*

Looks like everybody's suspicious of me. Why don't you just get this damn thing over with and lynch me already?

Then Don's vote will be

proven

to be a bullshit vote, DRK and RC will be shown to be tunneling me (I admit I'm tunneling them, but that doesn't mean I don't still see them as scum), and a whole lot of info will be gained for the town.

Is this OK with everyone? I'm tired of going around and around with this.

Roleclaim: Vanilla Townie

I won't even be missed. Just end this stupidity, please.

[Idiotking]

And before you ask, yes, this is the best path to take in my opinion.

I've been a very active player thusfar, and as such when I die there will be a lot of info to pass around.

It doesn't look like either Hiphop, RC, or DRK is going to be the lynch today, so from my point of view the lynch would just be a townie. Better it be a vanilla townie than a power role.

[don_johnson]

^^ okay.

unvote, vote ik

your flip proves nothing about my earlier vote as my earlier vote was based on the interactions of the rvs. your flip will serve better as an indicator of alignment to those who were attacking me based on my vote. but whatever, discussion should continue, but day 1 investigations should end with a vanilla claim. you may or may not be scum at this point, but outing too many roles is poor form. people should be coming down on the side they want here, but as a town, we should agree to move forward with this lynch.

shrine's last post is either misrep or misunderstanding. i am not crediting myself for the FACT that don_johnson is not often nk'd. i realize other players make the choices, but if you read my games you will see why scumdj lives to endgame more often than not and towndj makes it to lylo more often than not.

- Um, YES. Harm done. No good comes from losing a power role. <_<

i'm actually still here and none of you has any idea what my role consists of. we haven't lost anything yet. so again: NO HARM DONE. the above statement seems to indicate you believe my claim, so what purpose does it serve to cast me in a poor light?

[DeathRowKitty]

This is definitely interesting. Townie asking to end his suffering or scum hoping to weasel out of getting lynched? TBH, I thought he was going to claim a townie PR (as a fake-claim). I still think IK is a very good day 1 lynch.

I still don't rule out the possibility of IK-scum, though his willingness to be lynched is interesting (he could be creating a WIFOM situation). He has connections to several players (me, DTM, RC, dj, jason at the least), and if we mislynch, we lose a vanilla townie.

unvote: jason

I do plan on voting IK (unless someone else suddenly becomes scummier), but there's no reason to rush. We still have 4 days to lynch and it's better if we use that time for final discussion than to rush a lynch. Unless someone disagrees with me, it would be nice to have

everyone's

thoughts on IK's claim post so we have everyone's opinions recorded if IK gets lynched.

Obviously, we're in no danger of accidental hammer yet, but no one hammer until toro responds to accusations against him (along with anyone else I may have forgotten about).

Also, if someone who wants a hiphop lynch could reiterate that case quickly, it could be beneficial to those who haven't voted yet.

[DTMaster]

@Ryan
I'm ok with your explanations and I chalk it up as: differences in mafia theory.

@dj
I agree with the dangers of outing too many PRs on day 1 (in an ongoing game we lost a doc, a hider, and 2 lovers on day one .... lets just say the town isn't happy)

I also agree that flipping IK will generate tons of information depending on the alignment when we look in hindsight on day 2 (depending on who's alive). I prefer though my choice on Toro just because he is really slippery and I want to read his defense before I change my vote.

@IK
As much as lynching you would generate information (ie if you flip scum then I will be heavily under attack due to the defensive argument) it is anti-town to just self suicide. If you are actually town please scum hunt to the last breath. This potential AtE is looking really poor in your favour.

FoS:IK

for the self destructive nature/wifom.

@DRK
I don't like the wording of your post. it makes it seem that it isn't bad to lynch a townie on the first day (while yes the PR dying from the mislynch is avoided), we should focus on hitting scum. It's weak, yes, but call it gut for now.

[don_johnson]

I agree with the dangers of outing too many PRs on day 1 (in an ongoing game we lost a doc, a hider, and 2 lovers on day one .... lets just say the town isn't happy)

^^ this is against the rules.

requesting modkill

[DeathRowKitty]

@DTM
I never said I don't think IK is scum. The fact that he claimed vanilla just makes things a lot easier in my mind. We can lynch him, have (in my mind) a better than average chance of hitting scum, and if he's town, we lose a vanilla.

[jasonT1981]

I agree with the dangers of outing too many PRs on day 1 (in an ongoing game we lost a doc, a hider, and 2 lovers on day one .... lets just say the town isn't happy)

^^ this is against the rules.

requesting modkill

unvote

vote: Don Johnson

Requesting a mod kill? I don't think so... you basically want to take heat off you now some people where questioning your posts...and want someone else mod killed instead of possible your lynch?

What exactly is against the rules? talking about another game? if it is complete whats the problem?

[don_johnson]

*facepalm*

requesting a modkill is no different than a day vig attempt. dtmaster is a leading suspect of mine who has admittedly scummy posts. relax. i have no need to remove heat from me. i am a claimed town pr and it is day 1. it is against the rules to discuss

ongoing

games. it is a modkillable offense although in reviewing the rules i see that he can recieve a warning instead. whatever, i would prefer modkill as i think he is scum.

[hiphop]

You are wrong there, did you read what idk said in 385.

What does IK's 385 have to do with you being scapegoat and me laying my case. I am not seeing the connection.

I said you were wrong with me not being a scrapegoat, not about you laying your case.
Post 388 is where the scrapegoat term started from. You and zach keep it going over the same arguments, and now idk is going back. Even DRk is going back now.

Because you don't want to get lynched? No, you can easily defend yourself without spurring a quotewar. I am not actually that stubborn of a person. Yes, I would, but you seem to think defending yourself would be futile because you think I'm being stubborn.

First of all your first accusations were answered before you even commented on them, thus you are stubborn. So I didn’t bother answering them. If you read what other people has asked me you would have seen that they were answered. Thus you are that stubborn for bringing up old questions.

I would be supportive of an IK, Toro, or hiphop lynch.

Why the Toro lynch, I thought you said you didn’t understand the case?

*sigh*

Looks like everybody's suspicious of me. Why don't you just get this damn thing over with and lynch me already?

Then Don's vote will be

proven

to be a bullshit vote, DRK and RC will be shown to be tunneling me (I admit I'm tunneling them, but that doesn't mean I don't still see them as scum), and a whole lot of info will be gained for the town.

Is this OK with everyone? I'm tired of going around and around with this.

Roleclaim: Vanilla Townie

I won't even be missed. Just end this stupidity, please.

@Idk I would rather have it last to the last moment. You don’t have to play if you don’t want to. Ask for a replacement, or stick it out.

[Toro]

*sigh*

Looks like everybody's suspicious of me. Why don't you just get this damn thing over with and lynch me already?

Then Don's vote will be

proven

to be a bullshit vote, DRK and RC will be shown to be tunneling me (I admit I'm tunneling them, but that doesn't mean I don't still see them as scum), and a whole lot of info will be gained for the town.

Is this OK with everyone? I'm tired of going around and around with this.

Roleclaim: Vanilla Townie

I won't even be missed. Just end this stupidity, please.

You've got two votes on you and this prompts you to roleclaim? You are in no danger of being lynched atm!

[Zachrulez]

*sigh*

Looks like everybody's suspicious of me.

Why don't you just get this damn thing over with and lynch me already?

Then Don's vote will be

proven

to be a bullshit vote, DRK and RC will be shown to be tunneling me (I admit I'm tunneling them, but that doesn't mean I don't still see them as scum), and a whole lot of info will be gained for the town.

Is this OK with everyone? I'm tired of going around and around with this.

Roleclaim: Vanilla Townie

I won't even be missed. Just end this stupidity, please.

Fine.

Vote: Idiot King

I won't even get into the stupidity of claiming with only 2 votes on you.

[Toro]

I'm with Zach, it was a weird time to bring it up.

Vote: Idiotking

[Idiotking]

For the record, I do not and have never cared for the number of votes on me. There is a general agreement that I'm scummy, and the simple fact is that somebody has to die today. Better a vanilla die than a power role. It doesn't look like my top three suspects are dying anytime soon, and as such, this is the only option that I see.

I point out Toro's blatant pandering-to-the-town opportunism in his 466 and 468, this exchange with Zach is strange.

I have absolutely no intent now to replace out. My death would be the absolute best thing to happen to gain information, and I'm more than willing to die to give the town tools. Yes, I think that given the circumstances, this is the best road to take.

[Shrinehme]

What sort of "tools" do you think your death will provide?

[hiphop]

Zach I think you need to unvote before you vote again.

[DTMaster]

@Town.
Actually don is right (and my big fat mouth). My parentheses can be seen as breaking the "talk about ongoing games rules", but I had hoped to outline the dangers of losing PRs on day 1 (and I thought I was being vague as possible) but leave it up to mod ruling.

@Don
Depends on the faction I am. If I'm town the modkill will not be treated as a day-vig attempt, the traditional setting is to treat it as a lynch, especially when town outnumbers the scum players. It would force us into night if I'm correct.

@Zach/Toro

Fos: Zach

Potential Zach/Toro link?

@IK
Why take the suicidal route?

[DeathRowKitty]

FoS toro

You brought up the fact that IK only had two votes first, but it seems like you didn't want to put your suspicions on the line with a vote and waited for Zach to vote first.

Mod, is talking during twilight allowed in this game/is there going to be a preset time for twilight?

[hiphop]

*sigh*

Looks like everybody's suspicious of me.

Why don't you just get this damn thing over with and lynch me already?

Then Don's vote will be

proven

to be a bullshit vote, DRK and RC will be shown to be tunneling me (I admit I'm tunneling them, but that doesn't mean I don't still see them as scum), and a whole lot of info will be gained for the town.

Is this OK with everyone? I'm tired of going around and around with this.

Roleclaim: Vanilla Townie

I won't even be missed. Just end this stupidity, please.

Fine.

Vote: Idiot King

I won't even get into the stupidity of claiming with only 2 votes on you.

I'm with Zach, it was a weird time to bring it up.

Vote: Idiotking

And our two active lurkers show up, when votes are needed.