Mini 833 - Empire at War(The game is over?)

[Starbuck]

I also listed quite a few reasons why you are scummy in my post, not just one.

[xRECKONERx]

Would anyone object to me doing a scum-dar at this point just to help myself think "out loud"?

[Sajin]

@Santos-Why is everyone on your wagon scummy to you santos?

If I was to join with a vote on you, what exactly would make me scummier to you then before?

I think that your arguement is bad logic. Not everyone on a wagon is going to be scum.

That said I am not liking kdubs posts. Kdub- you criticized others for having a lack of content when you have some of the lowest in the thread. How does anyone mistaking the events of the thread make them scum?



@Reckoner- I am against lists on day 1. I think that can only help serve scum. My advice is you write one to yourself, if you need it to organize thoughts, rather than post it.

[xRECKONERx]

Okay. I'll keep my thoughts to myself then regarding most townie and neutral reads. However...

@Kdub: what "mistake" are you referring to? The fact that Santos said Jebus claimed miller? Or another one?

[BloodCovenent]

That said I am not liking kdubs posts. Kdub- you criticized others for having a lack of content when you have some of the lowest in the thread. How does anyone mistaking the events of the thread make them scum?

Why are you condemning Kdub for scum hunting? He criticized Santos, who is acting scummy. And also dodging questions.

[Santos]

There was nothing concrete to be suspicious of BloodCovenent except to vote him acting like zwet.

[xRECKONERx]

There was nothing concrete to be suspicious of BloodCovenent except to vote him acting like zwet.

Translation, please.

[Santos]

My vote for BC was just to see what zwet would do and how others would react.

1) zwet didn't do anything.
2) Most everyone else said I was scummy for posting like zwet BEFORE I had revealed it was my intention to post like zwet and see what would happen.

There is a good example of what I am talking about in a game I played with zwet; I have to find it because I didn't live very long in that game :p

[Jebus]

Thought: Santos may be scummy (I think so anyway), but he seems to be at least trying to scumhunt rather than mislead. I'm not sure whether that counts for much, but the town intention seems to be there.

Re-reading Santos in iso, brb.

[Santos]

Here it is. Zwet-town, read him in isolation. Its much better zwet-town than in this game, IMO.

[xRECKONERx]

I just don't get what you were trying to prove by copying zwet's playstyle. Maybe I'm just stupid, but can you spell it out for me clearly?

[Santos]

Besides waiting for zwet to say something, I was also seeing how others would respond to me playing like him. As it stands, two people immediately vote for me for mainly:

1) Acting like zwet
2) Strawmanning my inherent mistake in typing

(I am using straw man in the correct sense, right? Or do you get what I mean when I say some people are blowing up something into ridiculous proportions as opposed to letting it go as a simple mistake?)

[Kdub]

There are two "mistakes":

The one Santos was referring to is his use of the term "scum groups" as if he knew there was more than one. Maybe it was an honest mistake, but I thought it should be pointed out. His reaction to me pointing this out was more hostile than I would have expected, but whatever, I'm not going to focus on it, nor is the main reason I suspect him. Just leaving it out there for consideration, and it might be important if at some point in the future, it becomes clear that there are multiple scum groups.

For the record, I also didn't suspect him for acting like zwet as he claims I did.

The second mistake, which he still has not addressed, is him thinking that Jebus claimed miller, when in fact it was BC who did so. By itself, it's not much, maybe he just mixed them up or misread. But he initially said he suspected BC (he's since backed off) and then suspected Jebus, citing the miller claim as a reason for his suspicion. That raises several questions:
Does he still suspect Jebus now that it has been pointed out that he was mistaken about the miller claim?
Does he now suspect BC once again, since he was the one who actually made the claim?
If claiming miller is honestly suspicious to him, why did he not mention it earlier?

His reaction to the subsequent questioning and initial lack of answers about switching his suspects earned him my vote.

Santos:
Strawman is when someone takes an argument you are making, changes it to something similar but easier to refute, and then refutes that argument. So no strawmanning has been going on, but I also disagree that your initial mistake (about the scum teams) has been blown into ridiculous proportions. I think it was fair to bring it up and raise questions about it rather than ignoring it.

[Santos]

I like this post^

However, now that you point it out that Jebus was not the claimed miller, I can only *facepalm* and say I'm full of fail in this mafia. So I make mistakes...a lot of them, but do they necessarily say I'm scum?

[Starbuck]

I like this post^

However, now that you point it out that Jebus was not the claimed miller, I can only *facepalm* and say I'm full of fail in this mafia. So I make mistakes...a lot of them, but do they necessarily say I'm scum?

Appeal to emotion

[xRECKONERx]

Vote: Starbuck

That's a fucking stretch to call post 238 an AtE. Grasping for straws, Starbuck?

[Starbuck]

Did you read his post?

"I'm full of fail this mafia"
"So I make mistakes....a lot them, but do the necessarily say I'm scum?"


How is that not an appeal to emotion?

[Kdub]

Santos, can you answer the questions addressed to you? What is your current opinion of BC and Jebus given that you now realize you were mistaken about the claim? Why is claiming miller suspicious to you?

[BloodCovenent]

Vote: Starbuck

That's a fucking stretch to call post 238 an AtE. Grasping for straws, Starbuck?

nope, it really is an AtE.

I'm almost about ready to vote Santos too. Still waiting for answers regarding Kdub's questions.

[Starbuck]

After such a straw-grasping vote on yours truly, I decided to go back and do an iso of xRx to see his vote history, and here is what I found:

-BloodCovenant, RVS

-Kreriov, "This is not a random vote. This sentence just reeks of scummy: you're using obviously faulty logic, first off, and you're posing it in the form of a question so it seems much less obvious. I don't like this. "

-Jebus, "Jebus can re-read and figure out he wants to vote Starbuck, but can't even post any reasons? Not even a snippet of his thoughts?"

-Santos, Post 184

-Starbuck, "That's a fucking stretch to call post 238 an AtE. Grasping for straws, Starbuck?"



He's hopped around quite a bit for Day 1. I have played with xRx before and he's normally pretty conscientious about his vote.

[Kreriov]

Hola! Wife got called in to work for a bit, so I have some unexpected spare time.

Starbuck makes some very good points. I definitely suspected Reckoner early on. I felt his attack against me was misguided and contrived as I already stated. I am still not sure if his actions there are scum trying misprepresentation to try and frame a townie or a zealous townie looking for any little thing they can to find scum. I do feel that after my counterattack, Reckoner admitted he was wrong and backed off. A null tell there.

I will say I do not think anyone is really voting Santos or suspecting Santos for mistakes. Using the word teams instead of team might be a scum slip, but saying Jebus instead of BC is just a mistake. It is all the other stuff, voting without supporting those votes, using the 'I am playing like zwet' excuse. (Are you trying to get us to suspect zwet by doing this, trying to make a point, or trying to get zwet to do something? I don't understand, you seem to say all three things at points, so you have not explained it very well.)

Finally, we have a bunch of lurkers right now. The deadline is monday. Right now we are not even close to a concensus. If we do not reach one, then nothing happens. This is only my second nightless game and it is different than the other one I have played. If some of you who have more experience in this type of game could help educate me on the dangers of letting a lynch go by in this format as opposed to the normal format. I would appreciate it.

I will check in occassionaly until my wife gets home today and Monday I will be evaluating what happens tommorrow as promised.

[xRECKONERx]

After such a straw-grasping vote on yours truly, I decided to go back and do an iso of xRx to see his vote history, and here is what I found:

-BloodCovenant, RVS

-Kreriov, "This is not a random vote. This sentence just reeks of scummy: you're using obviously faulty logic, first off, and you're posing it in the form of a question so it seems much less obvious. I don't like this. "

-Jebus, "Jebus can re-read and figure out he wants to vote Starbuck, but can't even post any reasons? Not even a snippet of his thoughts?"

-Santos, Post 184

-Starbuck, "That's a fucking stretch to call post 238 an AtE. Grasping for straws, Starbuck?"



He's hopped around quite a bit for Day 1. I have played with xRx before and he's normally pretty conscientious about his vote.

The Kre vote was a misunderstanding of his sarcasm, apparently. Jebus is still in my crosshairs, my Santos case was the first real case I saw on anyone, and I just didn't get how Santos' post was AtE. I guess I didn't really understand how it was appealing to emotion so much as it was appealing to basic logic (I found his logic to be sound, anyway). But since others agree that it is an AtE:

Unvote

.

For some reason in this game I just feel like I keep going in circles. I can't seem to get anyone under my thumb. Jebus's last post makes a good point about Santos, so maybe I missed something in his original reply to my case, or maybe I just missed something in my case. Will give it a second read later.

[Sajin]

That said I am not liking kdubs posts. Kdub- you criticized others for having a lack of content when you have some of the lowest in the thread. How does anyone mistaking the events of the thread make them scum?

Why are you condemning Kdub for scum hunting? He criticized Santos, who is acting scummy. And also dodging questions.

Eh I got it off iso. Read his iso's and you will see the hypocracy imo.

[zwetschenwasser]

Here it is. Zwet-town, read him in isolation. Its much better zwet-town than in this game, IMO.

Santos, I get a lot more into games during endgame. IMO, I was the same as always until lylo, and when we got there I started contributing 9x as much.

[Kdub]

Sajin:
I did not criticize zwet for lacking content, I was just pointing out my observations at the time because Jebus said zwet was "definitely town" and I wanted to know why. I admit that when I made the comment, I did not have much content yet either, but I wasn't trying to criticize others for it.