Mini 845 - The Amish Village (Game Over)

[Herodotus]

@VP Baltar
The parallels between the two situations were strong and obvious. I figured Nuwen couldn't help but notice that she was making a direct, opposite response from what Artem was saying he'd expect... but it was unclear where she wanted to go with that.

@mod: we need lots of prods.

(and like VP said, some real posts from the nearly silent.)

[Herodotus]

@Rayfrost
You haven't voted. Whom would you prefer to lynch, if not yourself?

[Amished]

Sigh. Prodding just about everybody: Ojanen, Magus (close, but we need the activity), Ray, chamber and Rosso.

Also, I'm including a full vanilla townie PM in the second post as a lot of people (apparently) have been trying to break their games through it. Not only will this result in probably a mod-kill by me, it's slightly unfair in my eyes as well.

[RayFrost]

Those people who have been promising posts should speak up soon (I know some are supposed to come today or at the end of the week), and then I think Ray should claim so we have time to discuss it.

You want a claim, then...

VT.

re Hero:

tbh, I have no strong scum reads >.>" then again, I've been having trouble motivating myself to make posts and stuff. As it is, if I gave an answer to that, it'd make me feel like I was trying to deflect attention away from myself

[magnus_orion]

I've been having trouble with motivating myself to post, which is probably why rayfrost doesn't seem especially scummy tome. Still, I do agree with some of the things said about the reads not seeming real.

However, if rayfrost is scum, fishy is definitely scum. The whole way that fishy''s argument of my scumminess played out is definitely says opportunistic scum trying to take advantage of someone looking bad. Besides, fishy is well acquainted with my lack of ability to convince others. I don't like how his conclusions leave out his prior experiences with me...
Plus, if I were scum in a situation where one of my scum partners was to be lynched, which isn't an experience I'm unfamiliar with, my primary objective is not saving my scum partner, its making a towny look like my scumpartner's scumpartner. I'd look too scummy defending my own scum partner.


The number of people I've played with in the past in this game is increasing as the game goes on. Huh.

[RayFrost]

However, if rayfrost is scum, fishy is definitely scum.

The whole way that fishy''s argument of my scumminess played out is definitely says opportunistic scum trying to take advantage of someone looking bad. Besides, fishy is well acquainted with my lack of ability to convince others. I don't like how his conclusions leave out his prior experiences with me...
Plus, if I were scum in a situation where one of my scum partners was to be lynched, which isn't an experience I'm unfamiliar with, my primary objective is not saving my scum partner, its making a towny look like my scumpartner's scumpartner. I'd look too scummy defending my own scum partner.


The number of people I've played with in the past in this game is increasing as the game goes on. Huh.

Wait... if I'm scum, fishy is scum? that's confuzzling...

second paragraph feels like WIFOM.

[magnus_orion]

now rayfrost, if you are scum, you seem the type who would defend your scum partner.

The second paragraph is not meant to be a defense, its meant to be a description of my inclination as scum, with an implicit premise that others have similar inclinations, and wifom is a horrible argument dismissal anyway.

[RayFrost]

You've never seen me play as scum what makes you inclined to believe that I'd defend my partner instead of bussing/distancing from them?

I was saying what I felt from it, plus it got a clarification out of you, didn't it.

[chamber]

I skimmed the thread but I don't have time to go look over for unanswered questions right now. If someone wants to point them out before deadline for me I'll make sure to get them answered but other then I can't promise anything (I'll try though) I still think k*yuu is the best lynch. After more thought Id also be willing to lynch fishy. I realize now thinking about it that nuwens play in this game and the other game we played together is remarkably different, and she was town in that one. I'll see what else I can get done before deadline but no promises again, sorry.

[le Chat]

Forgive me while I still struggle to catch up.

so,

unvote

my vote was on nuwen (fishythefish) because i didnt like her response in her iso-11 to VP baltar, and Oj expressed similar discontent so I added my vote as an extra vote to hear an explanation.

i do not suspect fishythefish. my vote has been on him for a major long time because i have been putting this game aside. so the vote comes off.

i need to get a better grip on nuwen and artem but so far nothing bad.

I don't think you've mentioned Artem since then. Do you have a better grip on him?

Understand oj's vote on Nuwen and I will unvote vote Nuwen as well for now. Want to have Nuwen jump back into the game, I believe I expressed similar opinion in my last post.

Was this vote only a prod to make Nuwen post?
Any change with Fishy as a replacement?

i had not mentioned artem since then but i really hadnt mentioned... anything since then :< i do not have a better grip on artem but SC has replaced her so I guess I will get a better one soon.

the vote was to get nuwen to post but i was also fairly comfortable with putting my vote there at the time and if nuwen didnt really impress me then my vote woulda stayed there.

----

RayFrost’s 398 I disagree with more than just because he says I’m scummy. His scum-list is fairly opposite of mine.

Right now I am totally fine voting for Ray Frost's lynch. Im not going to do it -right- now because Im unsure about the current vote count.

i was kinda iffying on Claus because he jumped on me in the joke vote stage and then justified it based on my behavior. I guess his attention towards me made me suspect he thought I was a good target. However, Percy doesn't seem to hold the same opinion as he is casting his net on everyone.

I get good feelings from VP Baltar. Throughout VP Baltar + magnus_onionhead (:P) discussion I didn't really follow magnus's points. it seemed like argument for the sake of debate.

Chamber I have a hard time dealing with. I do not, do

not

like the forced habits as red_dye reasoning (borderline excuse?) and I also find it weird that you dont build cases. now, that last part is just meta, right, but i didn't really like where you were coming from as red_dye and so it hasnt really changed now that you are mr. chamber. but, i dont know if you are scummy.

i feel most comfortable voting rayfrost.

[Fishythefish]

However, if rayfrost is scum, fishy is definitely scum. The whole way that fishy''s argument of my scumminess played out is definitely says opportunistic scum trying to take advantage of someone looking bad. Besides, fishy is well acquainted with my lack of ability to convince others. I don't like how his conclusions leave out his prior experiences with me...
Plus, if I were scum in a situation where one of my scum partners was to be lynched, which isn't an experience I'm unfamiliar with, my primary objective is not saving my scum partner, its making a towny look like my scumpartner's scumpartner. I'd look too scummy defending my own scum partner.

My meta on you does suggest you aren't always the best at convincing people. However, I think you are very wrong about Ray, and my meta of you doesn't suggest that you habitually are very wrong as town (am I forgetting a game, or have we just played together in that one where I was a lateish scum replacement?). Bad cases/defenses that benefit the scum are still scummy. The second paragraph is a gross generalisation. How you would act towards you scumpartner depends hugely on how certain their lynch is, how important their role is, and the general game state.

[le Chat]

I see that RayFrost is L-2, so I will

vote: RayFrost

, to do more than fence sit

[Percy]

I disagree. magnus has produced what I think is a very weak defense of RayFrost. There are three reasons he might do this –
1. He is a scumpartner of Ray, trying to prevent his lynch.
2. He is scum without Ray, trying to look good after the latter’s lynch. Note: this requires magnus to think his defence looks good, which descends into WIFOM.
3. He is a misguided townie.
What I am saying is that magnus’s defence is bad enough that I think 2 and 3 relatively unlikely. Taken in isolation, this episode would make me think that magnus was scum with Ray. If Ray is town, I see magnus’s case as pretty much a nulltell, and so I’d consider magnus pretty townie based on the rest of his play.
There’s no WIFOM in saying “magnus is making a bad case on Ray. If Ray is scum, there’s a good motivation for scum-magnus to do this. (*) So if Ray flips scum, magnus is more likely scum”.
I am not using this as an argument to lynch RF. His own slot merits that. I’m just saying that if he flips scum, we should have a good look at magnus tomorrow.

Thanks for the clarification, I can see your train of thought.

I think something is missing at (*), though. Just because the scum have a good reason to have done something doesn't mean they did it. Your argument overstresses optimal play, imo, which is not the situation at all in most mafia games.

As it is, if I gave an answer to that, it'd make me feel like I was trying to deflect attention away from myself

It really is your last chance to scumhunt, but I take it that's not something you're interested in doing, because you're scum.

I am ready to drop the hammer.

Plus, if I were scum in a situation where one of my scum partners was to be lynched, which isn't an experience I'm unfamiliar with, my primary objective is not saving my scum partner, its making a towny look like my scumpartner's scumpartner. I'd look too scummy defending my own scum partner.

Interesting, but also WIFOM.

@chamber

:

If someone wants to point them out before deadline for me I'll make sure to get them answered but other then I can't promise anything (I'll try though)

OK, there's this one about Rosso. You said:

On rosso: Do I have a definitive scum/town meta for him? No. Have I seen him do everything he's being attacked for as town? Yes. Im mostly using my meta knowledge of him to make certain events neutral and in light of that he seems to be acting relatively towny imo.

...so I asked:

I'm curious as to what he has done in this game to identify himself to you as town that he hasn't done in any other game. Can you give an example?

The question is perhaps poorly phrased, so I'll have another go at it.
I'm curious as to what Rosso has done to make you think he's a townie. You're rendering all his scumtells to nulltells based on "he's done them in other games as a townie", so what makes him stand out

as a townie

in this game?

Also, a comment on this would be good too:

At whatever point I reread the game I'll point out some forced actions, they are probably more subtle then you are expecting. I still have no desire to make any cases.

I don't even know what a "forced action" is.

[RayFrost]

As it is, if I gave an answer to that, it'd make me feel like I was trying to deflect attention away from myself

It really is your last chance to scumhunt, but I take it that's not something you're interested in doing, because you're scum.

I am ready to drop the hammer.

I just dislike deflecting. I'd call out le chat for an opportunistic vote for me, that's it.

[le Chat]

As it is, if I gave an answer to that, it'd make me feel like I was trying to deflect attention away from myself

It really is your last chance to scumhunt, but I take it that's not something you're interested in doing, because you're scum.

I am ready to drop the hammer.

I just dislike deflecting. I'd call out le chat for an opportunistic vote for me, that's it.

it is opportunistic? did i not previously suspect mitey mouse on record, and vote her?

[RayFrost]

As it is, if I gave an answer to that, it'd make me feel like I was trying to deflect attention away from myself

It really is your last chance to scumhunt, but I take it that's not something you're interested in doing, because you're scum.

I am ready to drop the hammer.

I just dislike deflecting. I'd call out le chat for an opportunistic vote for me, that's it.

it is opportunistic? did i not previously suspect mitey mouse on record, and vote her?

"His scum-list is fairly opposite of mine." doesn't really mention that, does it?

[le Chat]

what? i dont have to re-word everything i have previously said in my iso about miteymouse when im catching up / voting you. your scum list was me, vp baltar, magnus as most scummy. imo vp baltar + magnus are simply most talkative. i also suspect reddye/chamber you null-read them on straight meta.

"his scum-list is fairly opposite of mine" isn't the only thing i have said towards you + your player slot (MM), and its def. not the only reason why im voting you.

[VP Baltar]

Ray, who do you think is most likely to be scum and why are you not voting for said person?

[RayFrost]

Ray, who do you think is most likely to be scum and why are you not voting for said person?

I'll answer second first: I'm gonna get lynched.

and answer first second: you cuz my gut says so.

[VP Baltar]

Who are your scum buddies?

[RayFrost]

Who are your scum buddies?

It is most unfortunate that I don't have any, eh?

Well, see you at the after party.

go

NK immune cultists with double voting powers

... or town.

[Amished]

Mod Votecount 1-19

RayFrost (6): Herodotus; SerialClergyman; Kairyuu; VP Baltar; FishytheFish; le Chat
FishytheFish: (1): Ojanen
Kairyuu (1): Chamber
VP Baltar (1): magnus_orion
Rosso_Carne (1): Percy

Not voting (2): Rosso_Carne; RayFrost;

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Ojanen and Rosso haven't picked up their prod PM's, but being the weekend (and a holiday weekend for you Canucks, not sure of the nationality of said people) I will let it go. If I don't get a response by deadline though, they're both likely to be replaced, and night will last for 72 hours (no exceptions) after either prods are picked up or the player is replaced.

[Ojanen]

Gah. Picking up the prod. I'll get back in the game tonight.

[Fishythefish]

Just because the scum have a good reason to have done something doesn't mean they did it. Your argument overstresses optimal play, imo, which is not the situation at all in most mafia games.

If the scum had good reason to do something, it is more likely they did it.

Anyway, if RF flips scum (and to a lesser extent if not), it's obviously time to read his wagon and interactions carefully. I think this conversation can wait until tomorrow.

[magnus_orion]

However, if rayfrost is scum, fishy is definitely scum. The whole way that fishy''s argument of my scumminess played out is definitely says opportunistic scum trying to take advantage of someone looking bad. Besides, fishy is well acquainted with my lack of ability to convince others. I don't like how his conclusions leave out his prior experiences with me...
Plus, if I were scum in a situation where one of my scum partners was to be lynched, which isn't an experience I'm unfamiliar with, my primary objective is not saving my scum partner, its making a towny look like my scumpartner's scumpartner. I'd look too scummy defending my own scum partner.

My meta on you does suggest you aren't always the best at convincing people. However, I think you are very wrong about Ray, and my meta of you doesn't suggest that you habitually are very wrong as town (am I forgetting a game, or have we just played together in that one where I was a lateish scum replacement?). Bad cases/defenses that benefit the scum are still scummy. The second paragraph is a gross generalisation. How you would act towards you scumpartner depends hugely on how certain their lynch is, how important their role is, and the general game state.

ok, that works, fishy isn't as scummy as before.
however, I disagree that bad cases/ defenses that benefit scum are scummy. Mostly because that was the crux of the argument I used to get a towny lynched in US Election mafia.