Mini 909: Nice'n'Fun Mafia (Game Over)

[Quagmire]

/confirm

I'm going to be V/LA from Friday evening through Saturday night... just an FYI.

[Quagmire]

hi im here

[Quagmire]

hi im here

nothing to say?

No not really, I don't see any scumtells yet.

[Quagmire]

surely you have some sort of comment even if it's not scum tells, even a flavour for the game? Saying nothing is hardly helpful.

No, there really isn't anything worth commenting on. Not enough information is out there yet in order to have any inkling towards a good lynch candidate.

[Quagmire]

I like hitogoroshi's play so far - he's the strongest town read I have. It's easy for scum to take advantage of a sedate town, so his activity and probing is good behavior. I'm going to help him kickstart the Quagmire wagon.

Vote: Quagmire

??? Hopping onto "the player with the towniest read" on day one isn't really good play.

[Quagmire]

As for the Hoopla claim, I don't see why not to believe it right now. If she's scum, there really isn't anything to gain other than protection from a day one lynch.

[Quagmire]

Why are people voting for The Tracker?

[Quagmire]

I still don't have much to add... the wagon building on me is silly but probably necessary, I don't have any solid enough scum reads yet, and only two people read town to me so far. I believe I've commented on everything else.

[Quagmire]

Why are people voting for The Tracker?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 29#2055429

Also a lack of anything better.

How is that a legit reason to vote for him?

[Quagmire]

Quagmire, still no vote?

No, not yet... there hasn't been any good enough scumtells.

[Quagmire]

I still don't have much to add... the wagon building on me is silly but probably necessary, I don't have any solid enough scum reads yet, and only two people read town to me so far. I believe I've commented on everything else.

Have you read your role PM?

No, as per usual in games I play in

[Quagmire]

Flareonage is pretty solidly town.

[Quagmire]

Policy lynching is wonderful and fantastic and full of sunshine rainbows, Nacho.

I don't want to distract anyone here and change the subject but I got trolled into it. Policy lynches are the worst things that could possibly happen in mafia.

[Quagmire]

He is not town. He is not anything at the moment. Until he knows his win condition, there is no way he can work toward it. This has nothing to do with a playstyle disagreement, because he isn't playing the game.

The only way this 'tactic' could possibly be viable is if you don't tell people you didn't read your role PM. The supposed benefit is not creating any obvious links between you and scum partners, as you don't know who they are. But this benefit becomes moot when everyone knows this is your tactic.

Not reading your role PM can only possibly help your scum game (even though it won't), therefore it is scummy/anti-town, as it's an attempt to gain an advantage

only

as scum.

How many times do I have to explain this before people understand it? No matter what I am, I am working towards my win condition. If I'm town, I am actively scumhunting and finding scum (even though it may not seem as such so far, as I haven't found much, but I am). If I'm scum, I'm spending day one actively scumhunting, and that goes an incredibly long way for me for future days. The latter is the same situation if I'm third-party.

So therefore not reading my role PM advances my win condition in all three ways, therefore it is a pro-whatever-side-I'm-on move. For today, it's pro-town. Any attempt from here on out to try and manipulate this position as anti-town in the manner Hoopla just did I will consider absurd and I'm not even going to take the time to respond to it. Unless you're just disagreeing with me and want to ask me about it some more.

[Quagmire]

I still don't have much to add... the wagon building on me is silly but probably necessary, I don't have any solid enough scum reads yet, and only two people read town to me so far. I believe I've commented on everything else.

I don't feel as though it's your role to observe the game, but to play it along side us. It's probably sounding a bit like a broken record, but none of us here need to lecture you about the necessity of participation. I'm especially curious to hear you ask questions and provoke other players, not just pop up and say, "have I commented on everything? k, l8r."

Your post 112 is a good example of what I don't want to see. The basis of the question is terrific, but it's asked from a position of weakness and nonchalance. What I mean by that is, like, okay, you spent two seconds looking at the latest vote count, but why not go deeper with it? Why not go back to Flare's latest post, Cyberbob, or Nacho, and ask them about the post with which they voted? If you think the reasoning is weak (you've said it yourself that you've seen nothing scummy so far), maybe you should tell them why it is they're getting overly excited. I'd be happy to see Quagmire v.s. cruelty over The Tracker wagon.

Again, I don't want to come across as patronizing, because I know you're aware of all of this. I honestly just want to see you play the game with us. I feel completely shortchanged at this point.

You don't want to come across as patronizing, but you just kind of did. You don't need to tell me how to play, I'm fully aware of that.. The Wiki is not the know-all-tell-all in terms of valid mafia strategy, despite what people here seem to think. With that said, passively laying back and observing peoples' actions is the way I play the game until I find a series of scummy actions, and then I hop on my volitions. I find I catch scum much better this way. If you don't like the way I play mafia, well... that's just too damn bad and I guess you'll have to get over it.

[Quagmire]

How many times do I have to explain this before people understand it? No matter what I am, I am working towards my win condition. If I'm town, I am actively scumhunting and finding scum (even though it may not seem as such so far, as I haven't found much, but I am). If I'm scum, I'm spending day one actively scumhunting, and that goes an incredibly long way for me for future days. The latter is the same situation if I'm third-party.

So therefore not reading my role PM advances my win condition in all three ways, therefore it is a pro-whatever-side-I'm-on move. For today, it's pro-town. Any attempt from here on out to try and manipulate this position as anti-town in the manner Hoopla just did I will consider absurd and I'm not even going to take the time to respond to it. Unless you're just disagreeing with me and want to ask me about it some more.

But if you read your role PM and you were town, you would be behaving in this manner you are now; scum-hunting, acting pro-town, whatever. You're trying to cloak your scum game by removing clues to scum partners if you are in fact scum. There is no simpler way for me to explain this, and if you don't understand I'm going to rally for your lynch based on your inability to comprehend basic concepts. You're only helping your scum game, don't try and twist it any other way.

No, don't be stupid. I play differently when I know i'm town and when I don't know when I'm town. i've found I do the better scumhunting the further removed I am from the game. I've explained it before. Why are you trying to parlay this into a policy lynch target, especially when I've proven otherwise?

[Quagmire]

When does this scumhunting actually happen?

I am scumhunting. I just do it passively.

[Quagmire]

The way I see it is if you haven't opened your role PM you aren't really playing mafia - you're abusing a mechanic of the game to try and get a cheap ride to the endgame.

It is extremely interesting to see the vehemence with which Nacho is trying to defend Quag here. I am looking forward to his flip very much - as I'm sure he is too, given that he doesn't know what it will be. This so-called "passive scumhunting" has proven itself to be nothing more than a dumb excuse for lurking and posting one-liners (except when his own neck is on the line of course) from what I've seen so far and I honestly do not feel like allowing it to continue.

Unvote, Vote: Quagmire

- let me know when you're actually playing mafia.

Do you not realize how anti-town this type of thinking is?

[Quagmire]

I've decided that under no circumstances I will read my role PM today, mostly because I want to troll Cyberbob and Hoopla some more. With that said, if I end up getting lynched, I'm ultimately no better a lynch choice than random chance... which is without question an "anti-town" way of playing the game.

[Quagmire]

Quagmire, do you have reads on any other players? Do you still think Flareon is solidly town? Do you find any players voting you/challenging your 'playstyle' suspicious?

Flareon is town, Hoopla I think you're slightly towniesh, Nachomamma8 is really town (and not because he's as "on my side" as other players get). Cyberbob is getting scummier and scummier by the post. I don't buy the town read you have on Hitorogoshi either, but I'd like to observe a few Hitorogoshi posts before making a judgment with him either.

[Quagmire]

64 is such a tiny sample size of games. It doesn't consider balance, nor the reasons for lynching the players. Don't you think it's probable that the majority of day one mislynches are lynches for 'anti-town' behavior?

[Quagmire]

64 is such a tiny sample size of games. It doesn't consider balance, nor the reasons for lynching the players. Don't you think it could be probable that the majority of day one mislynches are lynches for 'anti-town' behavior?

My last post should actually read like this.

[Quagmire]

@Cruelty: Quagmire doesn't read his Role PM; that includes if he's about to be lynched, I'm guessing.

I could have sworn someone linked to a game where Quag said he did read it if forced to roleclaim. I can't find the post now though, maybe I imagined it.

The thing is he's now deliberately trolling - why? Quag, can you explain to me how your actions are helping you? I can't see how drawing this much attention to yourself aids you as scum, or how drawing this much suspicion and deliberately trolling the thread benefits you as town. Seems lose/lose to me.

Because the logic behind Hoopla's argument is frustrating. I have read and claimed my role PM before. That was in Tree Stump I.

[Quagmire]

vote: Cyberbob

, reason post coming up after work tonight

[Quagmire]

Quagmire - No, I'd suggest the majority of D1 lynches are from people deluding themself into thinking they've caught some awesome scumslip. I very rarely see policy-lynches against anti-town play - occasionally a lurker will die, but even then it is rare to have them lynched purely for this reason.

I'd tend to disagree, because nobody ever assumes they have a foolproof D1 case, but I'm not about to page through 64 games and prove anybody right... if you'd like to do it to prove me wrong, please do go right ahead. I do however believe that a good D1 case will catch scum a higher percentage than random chance, which is why I'm all against policy lynches, which are no more than random chance.

[Quagmire]

If annoying were scummy Cyberbob we both would have been lynched in the first two posts.

[Quagmire]

@Cruelty: Quagmire doesn't read his Role PM; that includes if he's about to be lynched, I'm guessing.

I could have sworn someone linked to a game where Quag said he did read it if forced to roleclaim. I can't find the post now though, maybe I imagined it.

The thing is he's now deliberately trolling - why? Quag, can you explain to me how your actions are helping you? I can't see how drawing this much attention to yourself aids you as scum, or how drawing this much suspicion and deliberately trolling the thread benefits you as town. Seems lose/lose to me.

Because the logic behind Hoopla's argument is frustrating. I have read and claimed my role PM before. That was in Tree Stump I.

What are you answering here?

That your current actions help you because Hoopla's arguments are frustrating?


I'll ask again, how is your playstyle currently beneficial to you? In any regard?

I implied it wasn't. Not reading my role PM is coming out of frustration for being unable to comprehend this strategy.

[Quagmire]

hitorogoshi, that is really bad analysis. You're clearly reaching to vote here, you could just admit it. I've explained numerous times why this benefits me as town as well.

[Quagmire]

One thing this hasn't done is distracted me from scumhunting (one benefit from my current strategy, cruelty). The rest of the town has only let it distract themselves from it.

In any case, it's fairly obvious Cyberbob is scum. He's been one of the more active posters of the game insofar, but has provided next to zero analysis; he's been the definition of a fluff poster.

Now, that's not a scumtell in itself, but the thing that sets me off is that he hasn't tried to do any real scumhunting at all; his signal-to-noise ratio is astounding and he's never put himself on the line to any particular topic. His two votes have been a random vote "Because there's nothing better" (stupid reasoning) and a policy vote (me)... one of my classic scumtells I've found are those that spend the majority of time dismissing others' arguments instead of forming one's own. Read his posts in ISO here.

[Quagmire]

Cyberbob's case isn't the strongest, but I feel it's pretty valid, considering the amount of town I've noticed so far in this game (Hoopla, Nachomamma, Flareon). I'm also going to reread hitorogoshi because I think he's been unnecessarily wordy. Is hitorogoshi always so verbose?

[Quagmire]

Someone give me some reasons of why my play is anti-town please... I'd like to shoot them town and then we'll move on. "Because it can benefit me as scum" doesn't work as an argument, because as I've already said it also benefits me as town.

[Quagmire]

hitorogoshi, the benefit I get as scum isn't so great. If I am mafia, you should be able to read differences in my play tomorrow. I'm not a foolproof player by any means.

The benefit is merely slight on both sides; with that said, any benefit is a good benefit.

[Quagmire]

Someone give me some reasons of why my play is anti-town please... I'd like to shoot them town and then we'll move on. "Because it can benefit me as scum" doesn't work as an argument, because as I've already said it also benefits me as town.

I'll try again, I suppose.

Are you accurately representing your opinions about your play? I get a small inkling that you have read your role PM and you just enjoy creating drama.

If you are true about your motives, you must be assuming your play is valid and arguing your point to change the positions of those that oppose you. But your play only works for you if you're the only one doing it, as multiple players operating under the same strategy would significantly weaken your advantage, and trivialise Day 1.

Take a game of Prisoner's dilemma - where altruism is best mutual benefit for

both

players. You can occasionally be sneaky and defect to improve gain at the expense of others, but it is a mutually bad result if both players defect.

I deem your play as defecting because you are trying to gain an advantage at the expense of others. The odd curiousity is, you're trying to convince us your play is tactically sound, when it is blindingly obvious it only serves to benefit you at the expense of others (we can't guess your alignment, you can guess ours).

If others played this way (an approach you endorse), it would be a far worse net result for all players, than everyone being altruistic. It may be true that the best

personal

play is to play this way, but when others do it, it goes down the gurgler, therefore it is in your interests to keep others from doing so to maximise the benefit of your advantage.

There is no possible way to claim your action is pro-town when more people doing it would be a worse result.

In theory, that's correct. However, in reality, I'm the only one playing like this, aren't I?

Although that last sentence is false. PBPAs are a quick counterexample I can think of off the top of my head, if you're not convinced about my strategy.

[Quagmire]

In theory, that's correct. However, in reality, I'm the only one playing like this, aren't I?

Although that last sentence is false. PBPAs are a quick counterexample I can think of off the top of my head, if you're not convinced about my strategy.

Since you know more people doing it would be bad, why wouldn't you just keep it to yourself that you're playing this way? You could get your special advantage without the risk of being policy lynched (which probably outweighs any slight benefits). You then also reduce the risk of other players playing this way.

I was planning on it, until you asked.

[Quagmire]

For all these people that agree lynching Quagmire is a bad idea on D1, I see very little posting trying to convince us otherwise with actual cases. You're not helping the situation by just opposing it, you're just looking lazy.

I see very little posting trying to convince anyone otherwise with actual cases. I've shot down every "case" that tries to belittle the way I play.

[Quagmire]

This isn't "guesswork" it is my firm belief, my reasoning is posted before. Only scum have the information that Quagmire doesn't and i firmly believe that they would use it to their advantage. If they aren't, well they are playing a bad game and deserve to lose and quickly. Yes they could go the other way and not support it, but they would have to be certain that the quagmire lynch would happen without the vote(s) and not everyone in this game agrees with policy lynches so by 'sheer probabilities alone' there must be scum on that wagon whether he is town or not. Actually whatever quagmire role, for scum he is a good lynch target today as it gives the town little to no info on day 2 and if he turns scum, yes they have lost a partner but they can say "woohoo look at my scum hunting skills" and if he turns town they can say "well his play deserved it and it was a policy lynch".

Just because i don't agree with you doesn't make my feelings and reasoning behind the game "guesswork".

Quagmire is likely to be lynched at some point - it may not necessarily be Day 1, but condemning the lynch or staying off it could be just as fine of a scum tactic as pushing it. There has been enough (almost half) of the town that have expressed distaste in Quagmires play and an extra couple who would probably join the wagon. Scum have options in their stances even if you think one way is the only possibility.

I completely disagree about the value of his lynch, too. The beauty of this event means that every player has posted an opinion, argued, defended and reacted to Quagmire's claim. Very rarely in mafia do you get a constanst variable to compare information on. Usually you're comparing apples to oranges (ie; is X's defense on Y more scummy than Z's role claim or J's buddying with K). This is where human error and scum manipulation kick in.

Because we have had the whole town talking about the same event it means Quamire's flip is very important, as every player has ties with him (even if he has no ties to them).

And how will you determine who's town and scum based off of it? "He supported Quagmire's lynch blindly, but he's good -- but he supported Quagmire's lynch not blindly, so he's bad!"

This is nothing more than a lynch based on theory, which is the worst kind of lynch.

[Quagmire]

That was worded badly. My point was that one singular opinion based off of one singular variable (i.e. "everybody had an opinion on Quagmire, ergo we now have good lynch material") is really silly and a very anti-town way to look at the game.

[Quagmire]

@minder: I'm not defending his play style, certainly not, and I don't think it's a good tactic at all. That said, it seems to be his play style so what more can we say other than it sucks and live with it?

This point has come up many times but your post makes it the clearest so I'm going to quote it.

I wrote a big rant here defending my vote on Quagmire but I deleted it because reading my thoughts written down made me realize something. My vote on Quagmire is basicially vengeance; he's decided to give himself an advantage at our expense and pass it off as good for everyone, and the idea of him taking advantage of us pisses me off so much that I want him dead. But that isn't a fair reason to lynch someone. His style is anti-town, yes, but if I step back from the anger there are people more anti-town than him, especially since he will have read his PM d2.

I'm never playing a game with Quagmire again unless he's forced to read his role PM. But in the mean time, I can swallow my bile (and boy, is there a lot of bile) and pick someone who's more of a detriment to the town. To anyone who's voting Quagmire and is currently angry at him - I'd encourage you to do a bit of introspection. Just because you want to murder him in real life doesn't mean it's a good idea to do it in the game.

If we're looking for good lynch targets (remember folks, three days or so until deadline) the big names are flare and tracker. Cruelty 236 makes a good point that flare is talking a lot about the Quag wagon distracting us from discussion while simultaneously not discussing anything else. Tracker, conversely, only seems to be interested in posting in his own defense and not at all pro-actively. Both of them, in short, are lumps with no real input on the bandwagons/day's proceedings. Since we're close to deadline, I'll

unvote, vote: The Tracker

.

If the flare wagon becomes viable I'd be willing to help it along, and obviously I'd prefer a Quagmire lynch to a no-lynch (I mean, how tolerant do you want me to be?). But it looks like we could make a Tracker wagon happen and I'm willing to admit that he's contributing less than Quagmire right now.

GRR!!!! I, TOO, GET ANGRY ON THE INTERNET OVER A GAME!!!!

[Quagmire]

Everyone who is voting for Quagmire hasn't really been scum hunting. They just want Quagmire gone because of his playing style.

Be careful about using things like the word "everyone". I can't remember off the top of my head whether anyone else has been looking at people other than Quag but I certainly have been.

There may be some truth to what they are saying but scum could easily be using that situation to their advantage.

If Quagmire was scum then maybe his partner is one of the pissed off people. I know I would be if I found out my partner hasn't read his role PM

a) Scum

always

use a situation to their advantage whether it's one of their buddies in the firing line or whether it's a townie.
b) Yeah, maybe, or maybe all of his buddies are avoiding the wagon and lambasting all the people on it. You need to look at both sides of the coin if you want people to take your final position seriously.

Cyberbob, you've spent the entire day so far commenting on marginal material, mostly because you're afraid to substantially comment on what has been the topic of the day, i.e. me, to anywhere near the extent anyone else has commented on it. This is why you're scum; this is why you should be lynched.

[Quagmire]

To put it in a different way Cyberbob you've only passively defended portions of the game that border on uselessness. The meat of the argument you've been afraid to give a real opinion of. Why is that?

[Quagmire]

Well, I suppose it's going to be me or nobody. I've already said I'm not going to read my role PM. Let me stress how silly of a lynch this is.

[Quagmire]

I see very little posting trying to convince anyone otherwise with actual cases. I've shot down every "case" that tries to belittle the way I play.

Well, you haven't shot down shit. If anything you've been spectacularly useless. And this in the face of repeated attacks on/discussing about you. One would think that you'd inadvertently contribute but this hasn't been the case at all. Some halfassed remarks about CyberBob do not a case make.

I've waited (relatively) patiently for you to wow us all with some sort of amazing case that you've put together from your distancting/passive information gathering tactics and the best you've come up with is two sentences over two posts attacking Cyberbob. Fuck outta here son.

I've posted like 3 or 4 times on Cyberbob now, reread what I've posted. Of course, this is difficult anyways, because I've been forced to defend my playstyle the majority of today anyways. You've just gotten to sit back and whine about how pissed off you are about the way I play, while I've actually had to talk about it and defend myself. Which, every time it has been done so far, I've defended admirably. If there's reasons I missed please do show me where I've missed them.

With that said you haven't made a single case that's not "I don't like the way you play Quagmire" and you're only kidding yourself if you're thinking here that you're the bright, intelligent player and I'm the densehead (I may be stupid and bad at mafia, but that doesn't mean you're really any good). "Fuck outta here son durr"

Cyberbob's case isn't the strongest, but I feel it's pretty valid

So.. he had a valid case but he's spent the entire day commenting on marginal material? What changed your mind, and why?

[I should probably note at this time that I don't really have a read either way on Cyberbob, this is all about Quag].

This was lost in translation... probably my fault. That original post should read, "My case on Cyberbob isn't the strongest, but I feel it's pretty valid." Note that my post came directly after I first accused Cyberbob of being mafia.

[Quagmire]

Well, I suppose it's going to be me or nobody. I've already said I'm not going to read my role PM. Let me stress how silly of a lynch this is.

You also said

why

you're not going to read your role PM - would you care to remind everyone just what reason that might be?

to troll you

[Quagmire]

Well, I suppose it's going to be me or nobody. I've already said I'm not going to read my role PM. Let me stress how silly of a lynch this is.

You also said

why

you're not going to read your role PM - would you care to remind everyone just what reason that might be?

Actually seriously it's a principle thing, and I'm really sick of mafiascum mafia right now anyways... It's really awful. so I don't really mind getting lynched today. Plus, Hoopla's right, there is going to be some valuable information stemming from my lynch here.