Mini 898: The Game (you just lost it)-OVER

[AlmasterGM]

I find it funny that the same people who let the game go on for a week without a post are now complaining that it's going too fast.

Here's a tip for you: post other content and/or come up with an alternate suspect. If someone can name me anything that's as lynchworthy as llama's slip, feel free. Go ahead. After all, there are three scum left, not just one. As it is, simply saying "Let's not lynch yet" without giving us anything to do in the meantime just feels like you're stalling.

Keep in mind this is now the SECOND time he's done this. How any of you could still think he might be innocent is beyond me.

I mean, think about it---if he's town, why haven't the scum hammered him yet, when it would win them the game to do so? The only real answer imo is that he's scum and the other scum are trying to stall for another lynch to win.

Wow, could you be any MORE desperate for a lynch? That "alternative suspect" just became you. This is lylo - votes flying everywhere is a really Bad Idea.

To answer your question at the end, that's not true because it presumes everyone on the wagon already is a townie. Maybe some of them (*cough*yourself*cough*) are scum.

Pluto the First
Llamaeatataco-2-bv310, Raskol

[AK47x2]

Llama I don't think is scum. His responses have sucked, but I don't think the original post was anything malicious. Just very badly worded.

I'm really not liking the look of Raskol right now, though.

[Raskol]

Give me one good reason to think that llama isn't scum. This is the SECOND time he's slipped up like that, and I see absolutely no reason to let him off the hook. If you disagree, say so and say why. Otherwise---attacking me for pushing a wagon on someone, while at the same time doing ZERO to show why the wagon is a bad one, is super pathetic.

I don't care if you want to actually discuss more topics: if you have something to say, by all means say it---I'm not stopping you. I think llama is scum, I think it's fairly OBVIOUS that he's scum, and I don't think there's anyone else who is clearly a better target for a lynch. If you disagree, and actually have something to say, then fucking say it.

But coming out with nothing more than "hey guys slow down" is not helping anything. Having more time is only helpful if we actually fill that time with something---what good is another week if there are only 6 posts in that time, most of which are not even containing much content? Calling me "desperate for a lynch" because I'm actually scumhunting and moving the game along has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever seen and your attitude is exactly what has pushed this game into such a dead and failed state---if you're town then pull your head out of your ass and start helping find scum, or else get out of the way of those who will.

[llamaeatataco]

Raskol... I have no idea what you're doing now, other than trying to rush a lynch on lylo. Let's look at this bit by bit:

Here's a tip for you: post other content and/or come up with an alternate suspect. If someone can name me anything that's as lynchworthy as llama's slip, feel free. Go ahead. After all, there are three scum left, not just one. As it is, simply saying "Let's not lynch yet" without giving us anything to do in the meantime just feels like you're stalling.

I already gave two perfect suspects and a decent you. You, Suffer and bv, respectively. What slip? You cite the earlier incident as a reason to lynch me, even though it was first of all totally harmless and secondly I already explained exactly why I said what I said, and it didn't involve me being mafia. The original assertion was inane, and now you are saying that we should lynch based off of it? This assertion is also inane. It wasn't a slip. I wanted to know how his role worked. I was curious, the game wasn't moving and I wasn't quite sure if I was reading the claim right.

Keep in mind this is now the SECOND time he's done this. How any of you could still think he might be innocent is beyond me.

Second time I've gotten a bunch of crap for making innocent comments?

I mean, think about it---if he's town, why haven't the scum hammered him yet, when it would win them the game to do so? The only real answer imo is that he's scum and the other scum are trying to stall for another lynch to win.

Yet again you prove yourself to be scum with your.... I don't know what to call it. It's like a false dilemma, but with only one choice instead of two. That is one possibility, but the more probable reason is that the scumteam

is already on the wagon

. Or did you miss my post where I called you scum? You seem to be ignoring it... Seriously, even if we assume you are town, bv and Suffer could be scum. Your reasoning is flawed even from your point of view (assuming you are town) which is why we should do the opposite, and assume you are mafia.

Give me one good reason to think that llama isn't scum. This is the SECOND time he's slipped up like that, and I see absolutely no reason to let him off the hook. If you disagree, say so and say why. Otherwise---attacking me for pushing a wagon on someone, while at the same time doing ZERO to show why the wagon is a bad one, is super pathetic.

I already answered the supposed slipping argument, so the only new thing here is the last sentence. We aren't so much attacking you as saying that you pushing the wagon this hard reeks of being mafia. Also, I do believe that (yes this is necessary)

you ignored my last to fuckin' posts!

you know, the ones where I show why I asked what I asked, and why I think you are scum for pushing this wagon. That both shows why the wagon is bad AND provides an alternative suspect. IMO, alamanatee was just going off of that...

I don't care if you want to actually discuss more topics: if you have something to say, by all means say it---I'm not stopping you. I think llama is scum, I think it's fairly OBVIOUS that he's scum, and I don't think there's anyone else who is clearly a better target for a lynch. If you disagree, and actually have something to say, then fucking say it.

Well, unless I read the rules wrong, lynching pretty much ends all meaningful discussion for that day, especially if it's lylo. So lynching me WOULD end discussion, because it would end the game. The rest is just you saying 'llama is the only scummy person in this game,' and doesn't deserve a response. I HAVE said what I have to say, and you ignored it.

But coming out with nothing more than "hey guys slow down" is not helping anything. Having more time is only helpful if we actually fill that time with something---what good is another week if there are only 6 posts in that time, most of which are not even containing much content?

Your paragraphs are too big! But seriously, this is an extremely silly post, especially now. Now that we have something to talk about, the game is speeding up. I ask you this: Why do you want to lynch now instead of letting us see those '6 posts'?

Calling me "desperate for a lynch" because I'm actually scumhunting and moving the game along has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever seen and your attitude is exactly what has pushed this game into such a dead and failed state---if you're town then pull your head out of your ass and start helping find scum, or else get out of the way of those who will.

The first sentence almost made me laugh. You aren't scumhunting, you are in fact suppressing it. You want to lynch now. That will end the day/game. We can't scumhunt if the game is over. We, on the other hand (all the times I say we, I'm referring to pretty much everyone in the game that doesn't have a vote on me) want to look at this wagon and yourself and do some

actual

scumhunting, instead of just going 'omg he asked a question about a weird role lynch him now!' and not stopping to think.

It's not a ridiculous comment. You ARE desperate for a lynch. All Alamanatee said was that nobody else should vote, not that you should unvote. We ARE finding scum. You, on the other hand are just trying to push a wagon down our throats (insert dick joke here) without letting us stop to think. In your position (if you were town) I would rather wait an extra week for the '6 posts' than never get to read them.


This brings me to my main problem with this wagon: (other than it being directed at me) Raskol was the one that suggested we claim one at a time, iirc. That was a very patient attitude. He was willing to wait to gain the minimal amount of information that we could gain from sequential claiming. Now he doesn't want to wait for more discussion. This is incongruous, and shows a dramatic shift in his playing style, indicating that he has an ulterior motive for wanting this lynch to go through quickly. (IE: he's not being impatient, he's scared that we will see through the sham that is his wagon)



tl;dr: Raskol is scum.

vote: Raskol

[Peabody]

This is the SECOND time he's slipped up like that, and I see absolutely no reason to let him off the hook.

Raskol, you assert that Llama has 'slipped' up twice. The first slipup you must be referring to is when he, through faulty rhetoric, assumed the alignment of a player. As I stood before, I do not believe this is grounds for a lynch. The second slipup you reference is him asking questions about AK's role. This, I believe, is the most suspicious thing Llama has done.

Your further attack that assumes that Llama is scum only because he was not yet lynched is incredibly faulty. Why assume that only townies are on his wagon? In fact, I am most suspicious of the people who are currently on this wagon, and you have jumped to the foreground of my suspicion.

Excuse my argument from silence, but Raskol, you had nothing to say about my suspicion of you when we lynched Flareon. Nothing. You avoided the topic. Why?

[Raskol]

When did I ever say I wanted to lynch now? I want to lynch llama, yes. But if people have anything they want to say, they can say it. I'm not going to hammer---I can't, since I'm already voting you. And I never told anyone to hammer you, either. So how in the world am I "rushing" the lynch?

What I

have

said, and what is true, and what I will continue to say because it's true, is that delay for delay's sake is useless and that asking people to wait on a lynch not because you have things you want to say but just for the sake of waiting is useless and scummy. If people want to wait on the lynch because they have things they actually want to pursue, then FINE. But waiting just for the sake of waiting is stupid. IOW, if you don't want this wagon to go to lynch yet, fine. But it's only fine if you're going to be

doing

something in the meantime.

[Raskol]

Now, about llama himself:

First

of all, as to your post where you 'explain' yourself.---there's nothing in that post that you couldn't have easily made up after the fact to cover your ass. I would have to be stupid to buy such bullshit from someone who has incentive to lie.

For the rest of the town, lemme just ask this: what do you think is more likely? That llama is scum unconsciously revealing his true intentions, or that he's a townie who

consistently

makes "wording errors" that just "happen" to look like scumslips?

I have to say, if you are willing to take his word for it on what he meant, then you're a terribly naive person and shouldn't be playing mafia.

Second

, your "scumlist" consists of all and only those people who are voting for you. None of those people have been on your suspicion list before, and you have no new reason to be suspicious of them now---yet because they happen to be voting for you, you're willing to say they're all scum? Seems like you're not being very honest with your suspicions---more like self-serving.

Third

, your blatant and obvious misrepresentation of me, my case on you, and my behavior today.

]The first sentence almost made me laugh. You aren't scumhunting, you are in fact suppressing it. You want to lynch now. That will end the day/game. We can't scumhunt if the game is over.

You haven't been scumhunting

anyway

. The wagon on you is the first attempt anyone has made ALL DAY to make a case on ANYONE. In fact, even now the only other wagon is one on me, and the SOLE POINT IN THE CASE is that I'm attacking YOU.

IOW, I scumhunt. Then I get attacked for scumhunting.

Second, I never said I wanted to lynch now, jsut that if we DONT lynch you now, it had better be because people are DOING SOMETHING. Those words, "Raskol wants to lynch

right now

", were put in my mouth by you and almaster, who I can only assume is your scumbuddy.

This brings me to my main problem with this wagon: (other than it being directed at me) Raskol was the one that suggested we claim one at a time, iirc. That was a very patient attitude. He was willing to wait to gain the minimal amount of information that we could gain from sequential claiming. Now he doesn't want to wait for more discussion. This is incongruous, and shows a dramatic shift in his playing style, indicating that he has an ulterior motive for wanting this lynch to go through quickly. (IE: he's not being impatient, he's scared that we will see through the sham that is his wagon)

This is utter bullshit. Completely and obviously false. Yes, I originally suggested that we claim one at a time. That was what, two and a half

weeks

ago?

But after AGES of waiting, I have been trying to move things along. Read posts 373 and 399, where I try to get the massclaim to go smoother and quicker.

I was the one who suggested we

abandon

the fucking one claim at a time plan. I have been trying to get things moving for quite some time now.

Now, this obviously false point you made suggests to me that you either haven't read the thread, in which case you should stfu until you have, or you're lying scum trying to make me look bad with lies when you can't find anything true against me. Which is it?

[Raskol]

Raskol, you assert that Llama has 'slipped' up twice. The first slipup you must be referring to is when he, through faulty rhetoric, assumed the alignment of a player. As I stood before, I do not believe this is grounds for a lynch.

Oh yeah? What is, then? You going to wait for him to come out and tell you he's scum?

Honestly though, I agree it's not 100%. But in mafia, you have to work with the best you have. And I honestly think that this is the scummiest thing anyone alive has done. If you don't agree, then like I've been saying, show me something scummier. If I missed something I'd like to see it.

Otherwise, if you're not going to offer a better alternative, then how are you being anything but useless?

Your further attack that assumes that Llama is scum only because he was not yet lynched is incredibly faulty. Why assume that only townies are on his wagon? In fact, I am most suspicious of the people who are currently on this wagon, and you have jumped to the foreground of my suspicion.

Misrep. I don't say it proves anything 100%, just that it makes it the most likely answer. Overall, it's far more likely than not that I'm right, as I highly doubt that BOTH suffer and BV are scum, especially compared to the chances of the alterrnative (that llama is scum). It's distantly possible that I'm wrong, but in mafia you play the odds.

Excuse my argument from silence, but Raskol, you had nothing to say about my suspicion of you when we lynched Flareon. Nothing. You avoided the topic. Why?

You said that you had been suspicious of me but weren't any more. What exactly should I have said?

Even if you'd still been suspicious at the time, you never gave any reasons for your suspicions, except one I'd already answered the day before. Again, what answer would you expect? What would a comment from me have accomplished, except to further derail the game?

I don't want to be rude but if you think this is actually a point against me then I will feel safe in not trusting your judgment on llama.

[AlmasterGM]

I like how Raskol is pretty conservative throughout the entire game, but the minute he comes under suspicion, the text walls and ad hominims come blasting out like there's no tomorrow.

[Raskol]

I like how Raskol is pretty conservative throughout the entire game, but the minute he comes under suspicion, the text walls and ad hominims come blasting out like there's no tomorrow.

Even if that were true, how is that alignment relevant? If anything townies should be more concerned atm, as we lose with a mislynch today. Honestly, if you've got a point make it, otherwise you're just proving that you don't have an answer to my posts by answering with irrelevant fluff.

(Also, if you're going to use 'fancy latin phrases' at least spell them right; it makes you look ridiculous otherwise. It's ad hominem, not hominim)

[llamaeatataco]

First off, sorry I missed that you wanted to speed things up after a while of waiting. I think it had something to do with the page breaks and the entire pointlessness of one of the last couple of pages.

When did I ever say I wanted to lynch now? I want to lynch llama, yes. But if people have anything they want to say, they can say it. I'm not going to hammer---I can't, since I'm already voting you. And I never told anyone to hammer you, either. So how in the world am I "rushing" the lynch?

Alamanatee said that the wagon needed to stop and you told him to stfu and stop getting in your way. I'm pretty sure that means that you want to lynch me now, and that lynching me is the only thing that will satisfy you.

What I have said, and what is true, and what I will continue to say because it's true, is that delay for delay's sake is useless and that asking people to wait on a lynch not because you have things you want to say but just for the sake of waiting is useless and scummy. If people want to wait on the lynch because they have things they actually want to pursue, then FINE. But waiting just for the sake of waiting is stupid. IOW, if you don't want this wagon to go to lynch yet, fine. But it's only fine if you're going to be doing something in the meantime.

It's not delay for delay's sake. You keep pulling this up, and I keep telling you: This is what we want to wait and do. We want to hold up and think about the wagon. From your previous posts, I got the impression that you didn't want to wait, and I feel like Alamanatee got the same impression as I did. Also, as an aside... Why is waiting for the sake of waiting scummy? I'm under the impression that discussion during the day is a powerful tool. It is in no way scummy to use the full length of the day for discussion. In fact, it's scummy to claim that doing so is a bad thing. You seem to be letting yourself slip and show your intention of rushing the lynch here.

Oh yeah? What is, then? You going to wait for him to come out and tell you he's scum?

Honestly though, I agree it's not 100%. But in mafia, you have to work with the best you have. And I honestly think that this is the scummiest thing anyone alive has done. If you don't agree, then like I've been saying, show me something scummier. If I missed something I'd like to see it.

Otherwise, if you're not going to offer a better alternative, then how are you being anything but useless?

OK... You have completely ignored my explanation for why it is not scummy. Either you aren't convinced, or you realize that as scum, you can't give up too easily on your wagon. Show you something scummier? You pushing this farce of a wagon. It's completely inane, just like the one before it.

Misrep. I don't say it proves anything 100%, just that it makes it the most likely answer. Overall, it's far more likely than not that I'm right, as I highly doubt that BOTH suffer and BV are scum, especially compared to the chances of the alterrnative (that llama is scum). It's distantly possible that I'm wrong, but in mafia you play the odds.

Well, let's assume you are town and work from your point of view, Then look at the other people on the wagon: Suffer has already come under suspicion before, he's probably the only person besides me still alive that has actually gotten people to think he is mafia. I'm pretty sure you were not suspicious of him earlier though, so he doesn't count. BV hasn't helped at all, neither has his predecessor. It's actually kind of likely that he IS scum. Suffer likewise, if only because of his actions today. So really, it's pretty likely that both of them are scum, and I'm sure at least one of them is.

So FYPOV, you don't really have any ground to say that they AREN'T scum. Even in your own eyes, I don't think you could see anyone scummier than them excluding me. From the rest of the town's perspective however, it's a different story. You are pushing wholeheartedly for this lynch, and you've put far more effort into it and defending yourself than anyone else in the game has in any action from what I can tell. The problem is, it doesn't make sense. The whole basis of you calling me scum is that I have no reason for wanting to know if he can be killed other than wanting to kill him as mafia. First off, no mafia with any brains would consider shooting a PGO as the finishing blow to the town. I was merely curious to see if he could be killed, for two reasons. First, it might mean that other roles are altered as well, and second it might mean that the scum could do some crazy shit that I haven't thought of. So really, your wagon makes no sense and you pushing it with crap reasoning is silly.



Now, to address your attack on me. (post 431)

First of all, as to your post where you 'explain' yourself.---there's nothing in that post that you couldn't have easily made up after the fact to cover your ass. I would have to be stupid to buy such bullshit from someone who has incentive to lie.

What? They are two perfectly valid reasons and you try to say that they could easily be made up and therefore ignored.... The problem is, this is forum mafia. The only thing we have is text. I asked a one line question, in a completely isolated situation. Every single reason that I could give could be called a stupid, made up excuse with this logic. Hell, we could call EVERYONE'S reasoning/logic made up after the fact with this thinking. This is you trying to pull a fast one again, mere empty words.

For the rest of the town, lemme just ask this: what do you think is more likely? That llama is scum unconsciously revealing his true intentions, or that he's a townie who consistently makes "wording errors" that just "happen" to look like scumslips?

What is more likely here? I am mafia and subconciously burdened with guilt about my fictional slayings, my thoughts overridden with remorse and my subconcious is trying to inform the rest of the town of my despicable deeds, or I am town and I let my self-doubt influence my postings, then asked an innocent question based on curiosity and analysis of the setup/roles?

They don't look like scumslips. The first one was ridiculous, the second one was a question with an innocent explanation that you are trying to blind yourself to. Also, I would hardly call two posts, even if they were scumslips, consistent. you are again using flawed logic and attempting to pull the wool over our eyes, but you were too lazy to get it off of the sheep first.

I have to say, if you are willing to take his word for it on what he meant, then you're a terribly naive person and shouldn't be playing mafia.

appeal to intelligence. "You're a moron if you think I am wrong." <--- This is why you look scummy by the way. You use the logical fallacies and basically try to bully the town into voting you for fear of feeling stupid.

Second, your "scumlist" consists of all and only those people who are voting for you. None of those people have been on your suspicion list before, and you have no new reason to be suspicious of them now---yet because they happen to be voting for you, you're willing to say they're all scum? Seems like you're not being very honest with your suspicions---more like self-serving.

Raskol, I'm not going to explain this again. Just look at the post where I gave a very simple sequence of events showing how illogical the wagon was. These people are on a stupid wagon. Two of them for no reason at all, and one of them for totally fabricated ones. If this wagon were directed at Peabody, AK or Alamanatee I would STILL call all three of you scum. You are trying to use the fact that it happens to be on me to allow you to ignore the perfect reasoning behind calling you three scum. Less word trickery and more dying of a broken neck please. (Unless of course, we don't know how to make a proper noose and we just use some other knot and it ends up actually choking you...)

Third, your blatant and obvious misrepresentation of me, my case on you, and my behavior today.

Assertion. Please give me some examples of this misrepresentation.

You haven't been scumhunting anyway. The wagon on you is the first attempt anyone has made ALL DAY to make a case on ANYONE. In fact, even now the only other wagon is one on me, and the SOLE POINT IN THE CASE is that I'm attacking YOU.

IOW, I scumhunt. Then I get attacked for scumhunting.

Second, I never said I wanted to lynch now, jsut that if we DONT lynch you now, it had better be because people are DOING SOMETHING. Those words, "Raskol wants to lynch right now", were put in my mouth by you and almaster, who I can only assume is your scumbuddy.

Umm... Me pointing out the stupidity of your wagon IS scumhunting. I guess you could call you starting the wagon scumhunting, but that's not what we're faulting you for. We're faulting you for not wanting anyone else to scumhunt/get a chance to weigh in. You are saying both that you don't want to lynch right now, but that you DO want to lynch if nobody is going to do anything productive... and then say that we aren't being productive, so we should therefore lynch now. Clear this up: Are you going to stick with attacking us for wanting to drag the day out, or defending yourself by saying you want to wait? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, but trying to dress it up so we won't see it. Verbal smoke and mirrors.

This is utter bullshit. Completely and obviously false. Yes, I originally suggested that we claim one at a time. That was what, two and a half weeks ago?

But after AGES of waiting, I have been trying to move things along. Read posts 373 and 399, where I try to get the massclaim to go smoother and quicker.

I was the one who suggested we abandon the fucking one claim at a time plan. I have been trying to get things moving for quite some time now.

So you were originally patient and wanted to do this shit right, then you got fed up with taking the time to play correctly and wanted us to move along, and now you don't want us to use the rest of the day. Game-wise, the town gains absolutely nothing by waiting longer to lynch. The excess time doesn't get added on to the next day...

OK, so you have been trying to speed things up a bit from before you wanted to lynch me. I must have missed it. I don't reread the past pages as I'm typing a post, only the relevant ones.

Now, this obviously false point you made suggests to me that you either haven't read the thread, in which case you should stfu until you have, or you're lying scum trying to make me look bad with lies when you can't find anything true against me. Which is it?

Do you just have a list of quotes that you copy/paste into your accusations? I believe I posted on

every page of the thread

and was part of the discussion much more than anyone else more than half the time. This is another interesting incongruity (legit this time). You are blasting me for supposedly not reading the thread (Utter bullshit) and yet you completely ignore the fact that

bv obviously hasn't.

I may have made a mistake in my memory, aided by a couple of periods of L/A and a faulty re-read, but he hasn't even commented on anything that has happened other than to piggyback off of Peabody and vote for me. You tell me I should stfu if I haven't read the thread, while you are currently voting with someone who could legitimately be considered ignorant of the past couple of game-days.




So basically, Raskol has ignored every single legitimate argument I have made in my defense and against him and focused on the one area where I misinterpreted what had happened. The problem with this is that that was a minor point against him, and still the overall meaning (That Raskol was patient at the start of the day and then grew more impatient as the shadows grew shorter/longer) is the same. Raskol may have changed his mind before me, but wanting to rush a massclaim simply because he became bored is at the very least anti-town. Raskol still hasn't done anything other than blow smoke, ignore my posts and drop a crapload of empty words to try and force this lynch through. He has used a large amount of logical fallacies and basic person-with-nefarious-motives-trying-to-get-someone-to-screw-themselves-over techniques. "If you aren't scum, I'll eat my hat."

[Raskol]

If your plan is to drown me out in sheer volume of words, llama, it's working. Learn to be a bit more concise, please.

I'm just going to quote the post that everyone here is misrepping, rather than argue over what it says with scum/idiots who can't read or don't want to (starting to lean towards the latter atm honestly).

Anyone who can find a part where it says we have to lynch now gets a cookie.

I find it funny that the same people who let the game go on for a week without a post are now complaining that it's going too fast.

Here's a tip for you: post other content and/or come up with an alternate suspect. If someone can name me anything that's as lynchworthy as llama's slip, feel free. Go ahead. After all, there are three scum left, not just one. As it is, simply saying "Let's not lynch yet" without giving us anything to do in the meantime just feels like you're stalling.

Keep in mind this is now the SECOND time he's done this. How any of you could still think he might be innocent is beyond me.

I mean, think about it---if he's town, why haven't the scum hammered him yet, when it would win them the game to do so? The only real answer imo is that he's scum and the other scum are trying to stall for another lynch to win.

Now, llama, at this point I'm beginning to think it might be possible that you're dumb enough to actually make that kind of slip consistently as town, if you actually believe some of the things you're saying. And if you really can't understand why your own personal explanations can't be trusted from my POV, then you really must be that dumb/naive.

I have to say at this point I'm pretty confused. My first instinct is still that llama is scum and almaster is his buddy, but if I'm wrong and he's town then either Lastsurvivor the absent lurker is one of the scum and the only reason llama hasn't been hammered is because one of the scum hasn't been online to do it, or suffer and bv are scum together, plus one other person who might not be here.

Just in case it's the first option,

unvote

for now. At least we have conversation going now and it doesn't seem like things are going to go inactive again soon. I still think I'm right, but I'm willing to wait if people actually have things to say, and this way will prevent a ninja hammer if the first scenario above is the case.

[Raskol]

I have to say I'm getting more and more suspicious of Lastsurvivor, once I think about it. I just noticed that he hasn't even claimed yet. He posted while we were talking about the massclaim, but he hasn't said anything since. IMO that kind of waiting is perfect scum play in LyLo---just hold back and don't draw attention to yourself, and wait for the townies to argue with each other and mislynch someone while you stay under the radar...

The person he replaced was a scummy lurker (torqez), and now he's lurking too. In my experience, if one person in a slot does something, that might be just their personality/playstyle. But if two do it, and the only thing they have in common is their role, then the role is what's causing it. And the only kind of role that would cause this kind of level of lurking is a scum role.

And honestly, it's the only other thing that makes sense if llama isn't scum. The only way a town llama wouldn't have been hammered by now is if either 2 scum are on his wagon, or if one of the scum

isn't here to do it

. So either llama is scum, both suffer and bv are scum, or lastsurvivor is one of the scum.

[Peabody]

@ Raskol - I agree with giving lastsurvivor a closer look. I'm gonna have to read him in isolation.

In regards to my argument from silence being my only point against you, that's false. I asked the question to see your answer. My intentions weren't to build a case against you.

-------------

@Llama, I'm still stuck on your questioning about the PGO role. I just don't get why you would ever ask that...

[AK47x2]

My read on llama is as he said, a silly town. The sort of person who normally gets lynched D1 because they say something which gets hideously misinterpreted. But we've had a lot of those types, so we've still got llama around.

I would bet anything that there's scum on the lynch.

I don't like Raskol's switch from llama to lastsurvivor, though. Seems pretty contrived. But I do get his point. And since I was one of the main people on the torqez thing earlier, I'll do a read on him.

[llamaeatataco]

Here Is conciseness: (It seems long, but that's just because you've done so much silly crap)

1. I asked to sate my curiosity and to find out if the PGO was screwed up. If it's a legit claim, then the other pr's might have been altered as well.
2. You came up with BS reasons to lynch me, based on flawed logic.

The only way you could be worried about getting burned by a PGO is if you're thinking about targeting him.

Given that you've claimed vanilla, your concern seems a bit strange.

This is actually a misrepresentation of truth. I said I was burned before by making assumptions. I wanted to clear up that his role was indeed vulnerable, just to make sure I was assuming correctly. There are other ways to screw up based on his role-claim, you are just ignoring them. This is why you are scum. Your initial reason was completely fraudulent.


You also claimed (and still claim) that I make consistent slips... However, neither of these comments was a slip, and, like I said before, are not consistent anyway.


3. You misrepresent yourself. You still haven't cleared it up: Are you going to attack us for stalling, or are you going to try to defend yourself by saying you don't want a lynch now? Apparently it's the latter, so I don't want to hear any more crap about stalling.


4. You overuse ad hominem attacks/appeals to intelligence. Saying we are morons if we don't agree with you, calling me either mafia or idiotic town is what I'm talking about here. These aren't logical reasons to vote for me, they are you trying to confuse us.


5. wtfwagonswitch? Now, after saying that it is completely obvious to a blind, retarded bat with leprosy that I am mafia, you want to now switch over to lastsurvivor. It seems like you realized that my wagon wasn't going to happen (you haven't convinced anyone) and you now want us to focus on LS. I could understand bringing it up as a side note, but you just gave us another false dilemma: Either I am mafia or a moron.


6. It's silly anyway. Assume I am mafia. Why would I want to know if I could shoot the pgo? This can only hurt the mafia anyway, especially when the town is one mislynch away from a loss. It only makes sense that I was asking for the reasons I gave.


7. You ignored my entire post. Your only response was 'be more concise' and then you just didn't respond to any of it. Not to why I asked the question (other than 'I don't believe you and you're a naive twit') or why you pushing this bullshit wagon is scummy. Not to ANY of the scummy things you have done. This just adds one more to the list.



Now, I'm done making my case against you. Until you try and top your scummy behavior by doing something else stupid, it's pointless. You are thinking that by ignoring my points you invalidate them, and that by telling me I am verbose you destroy my arguments.



@AK: Whatever floats your boat. I have been lynched for silly crap like this before, and I still haven't learned. At least I'm good for getting the discussion going again...

@peabody: I already said why I asked the question, but it's buried under a bunch of other stuff. Basically, I was curious. If the PGO is altered, then some other roles might be as well.




Now, I think that's everything. My personal opinion is that Raskol is scum. I would say stupid town, but he's not playing like stupid town. Stupid townies don't manufacture BS cases and use appeals to intelligence, superiority and insults. Mafia do. As for the other scum, I don't really know. I'm going to go and read again to see what's going on with the others.

[Raskol]

That's your attempt at conciseness? Jesus Christ....

People who make super long posts and expect people to give a shit about every single thing they say are super annoying. If you write humongous walls of text full of inane bullshit, of course people are going to ignore most of what you say. That's not scummy, that's called "you're boring me". I can usually manage to get myself to read them, but if you honestly expect a bullet-point response to every redundant, half-assed attempt at an argument you make, most of which have either already been answered or don't need to be, then you should get used to disappointment.

But since you insist that you have some actual point, lemme respond to your so-called 'explanation' of your slip:

Learn to think, or learn to be less obvious about your brainless bandwagoning. I want to know if we can count on him being alive or not. That is a perfectly valid reason to be curious. You are completely ignoring any other possibility, including the actual reason. You see, if I were scum, why would I even think about targeting a PGO? Assume I am scum. If I know that a person is a PGO, I am immediately going to completely throw out ANY thoughts of killing them, unless there are 5+ scum and the person is really good. Unfortunately, the first cannot be true and we have seen no real evidence of the second. Now, assume I am town. Someone makes a role claim that seems contradictory to the understood idea of the role name. I want to know whether or not we can trust this person to be alive, assuming they are telling the truth. I am also just wanting to obtain more information.

Apparently your defense is that you would have to be amazingly stupid to ask this question as scum. I grant that: but that doesn't mean you're town, it just means you're either town

or

you're amazingly stupid.

Second, the fact that you couldn't, at the time, even explain why you wanted to know what you said you wanted to know undermines your claim. Which would a neutral observer say is more likely: that you're a townie asking that question in order to get information you're not sure why you want, or that you're scum asking that question to get information you want for a very specific reason (that is, to know what happens if you night-target him)?

The answer is obvious. People are generally more likely to ask questions in order to get information they know will be useful, not to get information that they have no reason to think will be useful. So your whole "I asked to figure this thing out that I'm not sure why I needed to know" bullshit is just that---bullshit. It's a clear example of the kind of shoddy, patchwork story that a bad liar comes up with to cover his tracks, and as I said before, we'd have to be stupid to believe it from someone who's probably scum.
___________________________________________________________________

For my own sanity, I'm just going to stop talking to llama now. I've made my points, and people can decide whether to listen to me or not. I have to say, at this point I'm fine lynching either llama or lastsurvivor as it seems like a tossup which of them is more likely to be scum.

[Raskol]

Oh, and AK: I haven't "switched". Llama is still my top priority.

I unvoted to avoid any chance of an early hammer if I'm wrong, not because he's in the clear---and in the meantime I'm exploring possible alternatives/partners since I've already made my points against llama.

[llamaeatataco]

By the way Raskol, (Just like Peabody has to get the first punch in, I have to get the last word in) Telling me that my post is too long and just plain stupid doesn't make you look smarter, or less scummy. It's a basic, noob response. You are completely ignoring everything I have said, and just saying 'no you're wrong and a tool' instead of responding. Now, I understand that I still have to convince the rest of the town of my innocence, but you still make yourself look scummier by doing this.

[AlmasterGM]

Lastsurvivor is probably lurkerscum with Raskol. It's even possible neither of them are scum and the entire scumteam is playing lurk-o-matic, but I dunno. I think a Lastsurvivor wagon should happen.

[llamaeatataco]

I think anything should happen. Seriously. This game has died. On a normal day, I would just randomly vote no lynch to get peoples attention so they would post instead of just lurking, but it's lylo. Has anyone been lurking long enough to be prodded?

[AlmasterGM]

Yeah, good point.

Vote: Lastsurvivor

[bv310]

Man, this game is dead. Reading Lastsurvivor in iso.

[Raskol]

Man, this game is dead.

wow, who would have guessed THAT would happen?

(oh yeah, I did)

[bv310]

Okay. Read LS in iso. He parrots a lot, and doesn't seem to contribute all that much.
My scum list from most to least:

Llama
LS
Almaster
Raskol

I'm willing to hammer LS at deadline if need be, but I still find Llama scummiest.