Newbie 940 - Game over

[silverbullet999]

Geez so much to read...

Vote: Die Prediger

Reasons in die's sections
------------------------------------------------------------------------hip

You said that that you will wait to day two to get reads, not scumhunt. Thor touched on the scumhunting part, not the reads part. Getting reads is one of the basics of scum-hunting. So now are you saying that you want to replace the word read to scumhunt. The second and third don't matter to me anymore. If you only have a read on a few players, you can't properly scum hunt. You saying that on day 2 you will get the reads on the rest, says you don't have any on them now. And as i said before the noobie card is nothing but an AtE.

Could you please quote where I say... "I am going to wait to day two to get reads"? I have said that I am going to wait to day two to start scumhunting so I merely assumed that is what you meant. To me getting reads is forming an opinion of people and I do have an opinion of everyone here. It doesn't seem like you'll believe this... do you want me to openly state my take on everyone? Also why do the second and third question no longer matter to you? Is this an agreement that you mistook my words and now agree that I didn't want to lynch [no] asap?

---------------------------------------------------------------------Sauron

Finally, SB never seemed to actually regret making the post, so it's clearly more than a case of someone getting too angry and letting it get the better of them. Scum case alone? Probably not. Strong indicator of a place to examine further? I'd say yes.

I'm not sure what the point of this is as I had revealed my plan and it failed horribly. Do I regret it? Well since it failed sure but I would have done it again if I had a second chance.

Besides, I personally feel like being under strong and violent pressure is probably a better way to learn a lot of aspects of this game than training wheels are.

I completely agree with this.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Thor

Yes, and they continue to be so. However, I will say that certain of his explanations of the theory behind his scummy feelings are different in certain ways from my own.

Can you clarify in more detail the differences?

Quote:
What evidence do you have to back yourself up as not being scum besides the play style you are using right now (being leaderlike)?

You're asking me to prove a negative? That seems unproductive.

This was in relation to you stating you are town. Not sure how this is proving a negative though. If you don't have any other evidence just say so.

Okay, my unvote may have been too early, but I thought Die had just dropped Silverbullet at L-1 and am still uneasy about that in Newbie games in general and this one in particular at this point. But it seems he only put him at L-2. That said I want to collect some thoughts on Die and may be looking to move my vote in any case so I'm happy enough being unvoted just at this time.

Well this is unexpected... What would it have mattered if I was at L-1? You say your uneasy about that especially in Newbie game... but why?

I think it was Pulindar who brought up the 'following' question, I've had no worries in that regard yet. It's quite possible we're both correct and SB is scum, in which case it's more worrisome that other people don't agree with us. It's Schrodinger's Cat right at the moment in any case.

Question... if I end up getting lynched, when I flip town does this saying mean that everyone should be worried about you two?

Vote: silverbullet999

After some thought, I still really don't care for the false anger stuff and still see that as one of the better scumtells available. I am officially adding Die to my scumlist and think he shall go in alongside hiphop with both of them now higher then [no]/Sauron.

This brings me to L-2, though none the less please answer my question above regarding this. You seemed certain of me... but as soon as you thought I got to L-1 you take it back. If someone else votes for me will your vote stand?


--------------------------------------------------------------------Die

The step Silver takes to attack [no]/Sauron is more scummy than the replacement. You try to give an easy target to town, saying he is scum for that - when he flips town after lynched, its also easy to say it was a mistake, cause its hard to tell the difference btw newbie tell and scum tell.
For this reason,


vote Silver

I said I felt it was a mega tell that he was scum, though I wasn't certain. I also didn't vote for him because I wanted to see if it was in general agreement that it was a mega tell. I'm not sure what you mean in the last part. Are you saying if he ended up getting lynched thanks in part to me I could easily use that defense? I'm fine that you voted for me and all but for those reasons alone makes me wonder about you.

About Thor and Silver: as you can notice, i already placed my vote on Silver. The reason i did that is because of the anger post. I cant believe that someone gets so angered on that pressure by being townie. He overreacted without reason, i think, because the points Thor raised were not misrepresenting Silver.

You now change up your reasoning for my vote... which is interesting. Again I question the reasoning though as it was a method that failed miserably. I'm not sure how I overreacted without reason as I revealed the method. Is it that you don't believe it was a plan to try to get hip-hop?

Until these questions are answered I'm going to vote for you. You seem to be contradicting yourself and are still seem to be trying to be focused on "staying alive" rather than helping out the town.

Anyway, personally, I really dont apreciate to play a game with that language. I am on pressure since the beggining and i dont have been in anyway not gentle.

I apologize for this and I will keep my posts PG-13 from now on in (maybe an occasional slip here and there but yeah.)

About Thor: He made a pretty good job Smile Just look at your reaction!
About hiphop: Not as pressurizing as Thor.

I coundt see anything until now that would make Thor and hiphop a team. Do you ask this question because both have been pressuring you?

Which reaction are you talking about? I asked this as hiphop... to me seemed to jump on somewhat randomly to pressure me.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also I realize the above may possibly be somewhat of a language barrier but until the questions are answered I'll keep my vote on him.


Also this post took way too long to make... Time to do homework be back later.

[Die Prediger]

I just thought it was strange that exp. guys did not attacked each other at that point.

Why? Had the experienced people done something scummy in your eyes?

Not attacking each other and going only on newbs, for me, can be scummy. It isnt for you?

[AurorusVox]

Alas, I see that most people have been giving FoSes in groups. I'll try to refrain from giving a particular and/or relationship to them to maintain my edginess and bitter aftertaste, but, for reasons I think will become apparent below, this is proving to be quite the difficulty.

Other than hiphop, I'm finding different things scummy about different people. There are crazy crazy Xanatos gambits* that I'd love to imagine were being played out, but I am prone to overcomplicating things, so I'm trying to keep it basic here.

Problem with basics is this: Preacher threw out a lot of scumminess upon his return to the fray, and so would be my natural second-FoS. However, hiphop has been voting Preacher since he turned up. Do I believe it could be a bus attempt this early? I'm not convinced hiphop would have any need to do that so soon, but then again, this could be the plan. I understand it could be as straightforward as Preacher being scum, and hiphop not being scum, or vice versa. Which is what I'm trying to figure out.

But like I say, Preacher is an easy target and an easy FoS. In the same way that I voted and considered SB rather than hitching a ride on the Preacher BW, I'm considering other options first here too. I'm keeping my eyes open on my joint-third places. It's pretty tight at the top and might change around at any given moment :\

*Not an official mafia term, but I'm familar with it through TV Tropes - be warned, you might lose days of your life suffering from Tab Explosion on this site.

[Die Prediger]

Geez so much to read...

Vote: Die Prediger

Reasons in die's sections
--------------------------------------------------------------------Die

The step Silver takes to attack [no]/Sauron is more scummy than the replacement. You try to give an easy target to town, saying he is scum for that - when he flips town after lynched, its also easy to say it was a mistake, cause its hard to tell the difference btw newbie tell and scum tell.
For this reason,


vote Silver

I said I felt it was a mega tell that he was scum, though I wasn't certain. I also didn't vote for him because I wanted to see if it was in general agreement that it was a mega tell. I'm not sure what you mean in the last part. Are you saying if he ended up getting lynched thanks in part to me I could easily use that defense? I'm fine that you voted for me and all but for those reasons alone makes me wonder about you.

About Thor and Silver: as you can notice, i already placed my vote on Silver. The reason i did that is because of the anger post. I cant believe that someone gets so angered on that pressure by being townie. He overreacted without reason, i think, because the points Thor raised were not misrepresenting Silver.

You now change up your reasoning for my vote... which is interesting. Again I question the reasoning though as it was a method that failed miserably. I'm not sure how I overreacted without reason as I revealed the method. Is it that you don't believe it was a plan to try to get hip-hop?

You are correct. I do contradict myself, but i hadnt notice that till now. You can take both of them.

A plan to get hiphop? Who would think of that? You were talking to someone outside the thread to plan something? Because this is the first time you mention

Until these questions are answered I'm going to vote for you. You seem to be contradicting yourself and are still seem to be trying to be focused on "staying alive" rather than helping out the town.

True. And it has been hard to keep defending myself. Today, for example, i answered a lot of questions, and had time for an ISO just on Thor. I will go for the others tomorrow. I have almost no time left now.

Anyway, personally, I really dont apreciate to play a game with that language. I am on pressure since the beggining and i dont have been in anyway not gentle.

I apologize for this and I will keep my posts PG-13 from now on in (maybe an occasional slip here and there but yeah.)

About Thor: He made a pretty good job Smile Just look at your reaction!
About hiphop: Not as pressurizing as Thor.

I coundt see anything until now that would make Thor and hiphop a team. Do you ask this question because both have been pressuring you?

Which reaction are you talking about? I asked this as hiphop... to me seemed to jump on somewhat randomly to pressure me.
Also I realize the above may possibly be somewhat of a language barrier but until the questions are answered I'll keep my vote on him.

[/quote]

About your angry reaction.
And answering about language: I am brazilian, my first language is the portuguese. But i thought i was better on english!

[silverbullet999]

----------------------------Die-----------------

You are correct. I do contradict myself, but i hadnt notice that till now. You can take both of them.

A plan to get hiphop? Who would think of that? You were talking to someone outside the thread to plan something? Because this is the first time you mention

So your voting for me... because of my attack on no... and because of my "angry outburst".

For the second part
You also seem surprised at the mentioning of my plan? Have you at all read page 9?

My vote stays with you for now, I don't know if this is simply you posting things a little recklessly from things that you haven't read or... what, but you are looking like either scum or a very dangerous townie.

[Sauron]

but it makes me wary.

If it makes you wary enough to lynch someone because they're simply too townie to be scum, then we have a problem.

I apologize for anything I said to give you this impression. I just realized a massive typo that changes the entire meaning of what I said.

The towniest looking people are the best lynches, of course.

That's what the NKs are for. Scum prefer lynches of scummy looking townies so they can gain townpoints with the lynch; in order to get a lynch on a townie-looking person, the person really can't be townie-looking, then (unless you use the Too Townie fallacy).

This, right here. I intended to say the towniest-looking people are the best NKs. Lynches was a mistype that I didn't catch, and I apologize for any misinterpretation this caused.

In my opinion, the best use of the town is to use everybody's data and opinions, but trust none of it (unless confirmed, of course). Even if you still suspect everyone at least epsilon, there's no reason you can't consider the information they give you and check it against what you know.

If you suspect everyone, then it's easier for scum to convince you to lynch an otherwise townie-looking person.

I bet that it is relatively rare that there's nobody that one considers town, or at least townie-looking, even if they never share this information. That said, discounting someone from suspicion for seeming too townie is a fatal mistake that I'm not looking to make again any time soon. Sure, maybe I can be convinced, but I know it'll take me more to be convinced if I feel they look townie than if I don't. It's not as if I'm asserting you should suspect everyone equally!

Getting town reads early in the game is a very useful technique for finding scum; it concentrates your attention on only a couple people and allows you to get reads for them much more efficently.

There's a difference between getting town reads and sharing town reads. Maintain your own list of reads, share the reads that are relevant. In my opinion, scum reads are always relevant, town reads are only relevant if they help catch scum or stop a mislynch.

Ow, ow, ow. That's painful to hear. You're being overly specific. An appeal to emotion can manipulate using any emotion, not just fear or pity. Granted, argumentum ad metum and argumentum ad misercordiam are the two most common in arguments, and probably in mafia, but they aren't the only two. I can see no reason why well-crafted false anger couldn't be used as a manipulation technique.

True, other emotions can be used and are used, but it takes a lot of skill to properly implement anything past anger, and I wouldn't expect that kind of skill from someone who got one of the first serious lynchwagons started on him Day 1.

He did admit to being able to stop the angry post if it hadn't been okay, and said that he was up to more than was on the surface, so there's clearly more to it unless he's a really odd liar.

It does a lot of things. My personal response to anger, in general, is an attempt to appease the angry person and calm them down. I can also see someone assuming that anger, in this case, at least, can only arise from a townie being genuinely frustrated.

This argument runs in the realm of WIFOM, but I would like to point out that I'm the only person who considered his response a towntell. The majority of people don't take too kindly to being swore at...

Personally, I don't see it as a tell one way or the other. It's the fact that it's been clearly shown to not have been genuine that makes me think scum.

I would like to add that your mindset (quickhammering is obvscummy) is a bit dangerous though. Labelling things as surefire scumtells is never a good idea; with the quickhammering example, it sometimes turns a single mislynch into two.

This I will cede. However, I'm sure we can both agree that a quickhammer will be the first thing we examine the next day, so I still feel worries about a mafia quickhammer aren't entirely warranted.

but the exchange of which it was a part seemed like a bad place for it.

In mafia, the intent behind actions is normally far more important then the actions themselves. In other words, just because the technique didn't work correctly doesn't mean that Silver doesn't get townpoints for it.

I can agree with the idea here, but I think you're missing an important step: interpreting the intent. In my opinion, a well-placed use of false anger would help betray townie intent, but where it is, I simply don't get the feeling of attempting to help town. It comes off far more as scum trying a desperate tactic.

3) However, the wagon formed extraordinarily fast (L-1 in 2 pages). Why don't you think there were opportunistic scum on it?

Now I am definitely being misinterpreted, though I suspect unintentionally. I said that scum wasn't necessarily on it. It is possible that there was opportunistic scum, but I see it as totally reasonable that there were 4 townies on the wagon.

Conclusion: I dont see (or i cant see) Thor revealing too much of himself. But...
1. He attacks people, asks a lot of questions (even some of them are not that useful)
2. In a part of this game, he asks a lot about the bandwagoning to some players. Here at this point i think he was fishing scum – Who would be interested on one of these lynches? This is the question i think he made for himself. And this is the point that makes me think that Thor is town. I can have missed other fish questions, though it would just compliment what I am saying.

This seems like a pair of weak arguments.
1. Strikes me as good town play
2. There is asking about bandwagons in a way that is basically "Hey, this dude's a good lynch, you wanna go ahead and lynch? I will if you will", and then there's Thor that reads far more like "I have my positions, and I think they're clear. Please clarify yours, and here's a springboard."

If you want to convince us Thor is scum, ya gotta do better than that. Of course, I don't expect the scum to make any better of an argument, so I'm not holding my breath in this regard.

[Thor665]

TL:DR

Verbal sparring with silverbullet's scumhunting of me - I explain why I am obv. town, how hiphop and I are not playstyle clones, and why I had issues with L-1.
I offer advice to Aurorus because I have nothing brilliant to question the fruit on.
I catch Sauron tunneling like crazy and call him on it.
I ask a question for hiphop and am curious about Sauron and the Die case.


==============================================

Can you clarify in more detail the differences [between your play and hiphop's play]?

I feel like I should ask you to point out the similarities first. But my basic response is this - look at claiming you are scummy over your anger post. Both of us did it. However, I expressed my scum read as a feeling over the faked emotions of the anger posts, hiphop cited anger itself being a scumtell. Most of our posts are like this, we are each attacking the same point in many cases but both of us are citing different reasons for those accusations. I'll also note some points he's advanced I'm unimpressed by, and I suspect the reverse is true (certainly anything I'm pressuring him over I suspect he doesn't agree with )

Also, in the most general concept of 'play' I would say I tend to be more of a questioner/analyzer and he is more of a pressure-er/reaction reader as far as I can grok.

You're asking me to prove a negative? That seems unproductive.

This was in relation to you stating you are town. Not sure how this is proving a negative though. If you don't have any other evidence just say so.

You asked me to prove that I wasn't scum (and also listed a piece of evidence I couldn't use to do so) - I might as well ask you to prove you are not a pink unicorn. How could you readily do so? That is proving a negative, it's possible but is much more difficult then proving a positive.

I am town because I am acting in a pro town manner, I believe all of my votes, questions, assertions, and discussions have been intended to find scum and aid the town. If you disagree please show me where I'm acting in an anti-town or scummy manner and I will discuss it with you.

Well this is unexpected... What would it have mattered if I was at L-1? You say your uneasy about that especially in Newbie game... but why?

Newbies are all insane little adrenaline monkeys who run around with hammers while barely able to tell a scumtell from a towntell (which only puts me slightly above them). Until I am comfortable with the Day Phase ending in a lynch I will not be putting anyone at L-1 for fear of one of the aforementioned newbs deciding to use that hammer. That is why it mattered whether or not you were at L-1.

Question... if I end up getting lynched, when I flip town does this saying mean that everyone should be worried about you two?

This commentary by me shows that I would understand if they chose to suspect Pulindar and me, I would not go so far as to say they 'should' since who is to know what tells may or may not be on the table at that point. Investigating players who were part of a mislynch is a common tactic and I support it.

You seemed certain of me... but as soon as you thought I got to L-1 you take it back. If someone else votes for me will your vote stand?

That depends on who casts the vote, why, what evidence I have, and what time period it's happening in. If it were to happen tomorrow I would probably unvote you. If it were to happen five days from now...I dunno, I might, or I might be calling for your blood at that point.

Other than hiphop, I'm finding different things scummy about different people. There are crazy crazy Xanatos gambits* that I'd love to imagine were being played out, but I am prone to overcomplicating things, so I'm trying to keep it basic here.

I have this problem too (both over-complicating and loving the Tropes site). I will say, in general, things are rarely as complicated as you sometimes think. Generally scummy people are scum and townish people are townie. That said, never stop questioning, one of my worst games ever was because I basically shut down the questioning side and just started to go with preconceived notions too much.

Conclusion: I dont see (or i cant see) Thor revealing too much of himself. But...
1. He attacks people, asks a lot of questions (even some of them are not that useful)
2. In a part of this game, he asks a lot about the bandwagoning to some players. Here at this point i think he was fishing scum – Who would be interested on one of these lynches? This is the question i think he made for himself. And this is the point that makes me think that Thor is town. I can have missed other fish questions, though it would just compliment what I am saying.

This seems like a pair of weak arguments.
1. Strikes me as good town play
2. There is asking about bandwagons in a way that is basically "Hey, this dude's a good lynch, you wanna go ahead and lynch? I will if you will", and then there's Thor that reads far more like "I have my positions, and I think they're clear. Please clarify yours, and here's a springboard."

If you want to convince us Thor is scum, ya gotta do better than that. Of course, I don't expect the scum to make any better of an argument, so I'm not holding my breath in this regard.

I'm not sure whether to call this scummy as a misrep, scummy for attempted buddying, or simply bad reading comprehension.

I can't conceive of a misrep that bad, so I'm going to go with not enough reading comprehension and maybe some buddying.

@Sauron - you're tunneling. The reason you just attacked Die over this is because you're too excited and too convinced by the idea that Die is scum. Step back, re-look over your evidence. Everything he says doesn't have to be scummy.

Could you please offer a short summation (4 sentences or less) as to why you think Die is scummy?

@hiphop - what is your read on how I just interpreted Sauron's actions here? How does it affect your read of Die, if at all?

[silverbullet999]

---------------------------Thor
[Useless]

You asked me to prove that I wasn't scum (and also listed a piece of evidence I couldn't use to do so) - I might as well ask you to prove you are not a pink unicorn. How could you readily do so? That is proving a negative, it's possible but is much more difficult then proving a positive.

Your example cracked me up... I thank you for that. Also I'm a Robot Unicorn... and I chase dreams! (wonders if you'll get it..)

Newbies are all insane little adrenaline monkeys who run around with hammers while barely able to tell a scumtell from a towntell (which only puts me slightly above them).

Again you crack me up

[/Useless]

I am town because I am acting in a pro town manner, I believe all of my votes, questions, assertions, and discussions have been intended to find scum and aid the town. If you disagree please show me where I'm acting in an anti-town or scummy manner and I will discuss it with you.

This is what I meant by your evidence. I don't disagree and don't believe your actions to be anti-town / scummy yet.

Until I am comfortable with the Day Phase ending in a lynch I will not be putting anyone at L-1 for fear of one of the aforementioned newbs deciding to use that hammer. That is why it mattered whether or not you were at L-1.

Fair enough

My only question for you at this point is what you think of Die's reasonings for his vote for me. Personally I'm not sure to read it as a noob tell, scum tell, or simply a misunderstanding.

And general question as to the topic of getting lynched.
# Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players may continue to post.
# Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post except for a brief “Bah!”-type post.

I'm interpreting the first rule as, whomever ends up getting enough votes to be lynched will still be allowed to make arguments, the person will still get lynched nonetheless but will be allowed to post whatever until his death scene.

The bah post must be brief and can maybe contain some suggestions and thats it.

Are these interpretations correct?

(Sorry for asking but I'd rather make sure now rather than later)

[AurorusVox]

Conclusion: I dont see (or i cant see) Thor revealing too much of himself. But...
1. He attacks people, asks a lot of questions (even some of them are not that useful)
2. In a part of this game, he asks a lot about the bandwagoning to some players. Here at this point i think he was fishing scum – Who would be interested on one of these lynches? This is the question i think he made for himself.

And this is the point that makes me think that Thor is town.

I can have missed other fish questions, though it would just compliment what I am saying.

This seems like a pair of weak arguments.
1. Strikes me as good town play
2. There is asking about bandwagons in a way that is basically "Hey, this dude's a good lynch, you wanna go ahead and lynch? I will if you will", and then there's Thor that reads far more like "I have my positions, and I think they're clear. Please clarify yours, and here's a springboard."

If you want to convince us Thor is scum, ya gotta do better than that. Of course, I don't expect the scum to make any better of an argument, so I'm not holding my breath in this regard.

Sauron, he's saying that he thinks Thor is town here. Bolded the relevant part.

What do you think of other, more subtle possible scum? I'm thinking here of Jerako and Pulindar?

Jerako - I still have some questions for you outstanding, but I want to add this to the equation. Your original scumhunt was based on [no]'s contradictions, but do you feel that HipHop has contradicted himself in any way? Of Sauron/[no], hiphop and silverbullet999, who do you think has contradicted himself the most, and whose contradiction do you find scummiest/newbiest?

Pulindar - Why do I find myself suspecting you? I wonder what your read on nachomamma is at the moment, and what his read on you is...How much useful meta have you used this game on nacho, and on any other players? Earlier, Nacho said he was made uncomfortable by lurking, do you think that you have lurked at all in this game?

Nacho - you made a pretty bold statement earlier in the game. "Silverbullet is town". How convinced of this are you? Do you believe you can ever truly "know" who town is, unless you're scum? Also, what do you make of the way that SB went about his gambit? Below is what I saw happening:

"Can you get angry and cuss?" / "I'm gonna get angry" / (he tried it on Thor and it didn't work here / "Now I'm REALLY ANGRY" / (CAPSLOCK ANGER post) / "It was legit" / "It was fake" / "It didn't work because I told you it was fake"

Do you think this could ever have worked, if we revoked the last two parts? Hiphop says it wouldn't have made him angry. But do you think if it came from a more experienced player, it would have worked?

SB - Do you think that with such obvious signposts, and with your anger-lite on Thor, it was ever going to work, even if you hadn't told us it was fake? It seems more like a newbie (perhaps mafia) setting out his boundaries of what's acceptable and then trying to look townie. I'm not sure whether to take this as scummy or as townie (the initial outburst and contradiction I find scummy, but I can see where Nacho is coming from to call it a townish gambit...I just am not convinced that this is the gambit you were trying)

[AurorusVox]

Pulindar, I just skim-read through all of your posts, and I see that you're playing a pretty good game. I'm not saying you're scum (see my talking with Thor on this same question), but, in the same way as Thor, I like to keep my eye on the more townie players.

Have you been satisfied with peoples' responses to your questions so far? You voted Jerako earlier in the game I believe, without stating your reasons, and I called you out on it. At that point you said you didn't want to reveal your reasons, then unvoted him and have since placed your vote back. Are the same reasons still applying now as to then?

Who would you like to see more pressure on out of everyone here? Who, if anyone, do you think needs less pressure?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Guys, 7 posts in a row is a bit extreme. Let's collect our thoughts and post them all in one post please.



Official Vote Count

Sauron - 1 (Jerako)
Die Prediger - 2 (hiphop, silverbullet999)

silverbullet999 - 3 (Sauron, Die Prediger, Thor665)

Jerako - 1 (Pulindar)
hiphop - 2 (AurorusVox, Nachomamma8)

Not Voting - 0 ()

5 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Tuesday, May 4.

[silverbullet999]

Do you think that with such obvious signposts, and with your anger-lite on Thor, it was ever going to work, even if you hadn't told us it was fake?

Honestly yes, though I can't be certain if hip's response would have been any different I feel that it's a strong possibility.

"I'm gonna get angry" / (he tried it on Thor and it didn't work here /"Can you get angry and cuss?" / "Now I'm REALLY ANGRY" / (CAPSLOCK ANGER post) / "

This points it out perfectly. though it's out of order.. (modified above to correct order). My anger-lite was on thor... hiphop comes from nowhere and attacks me even stronger... I thought I could escalate our conflict but was made wrong. It's also possible that hip did this as seeing an opportunistic time in hoping I would get angry and to calmly interpret it as a scumtell. Which would feel scummy to me but even I will admit that it seems a rather far stretched theory.

Im not sure whether to take this as scummy or as townie (the initial outburst and contradiction I find scummy, but I can see where Nacho is coming from to call it a townish gambit...I just am not convinced that this is the gambit you were trying)

Could you clarify as to the initial contradiction?

[AurorusVox]

The contradiction is in you telling us that your anger was your legitimate feelings, but also that it was made up (or at the very least, exaggerated) for a particular purpose. A feeling (in this case of anger) can't be true and false at the same time.

[Thor665]

My only question for you at this point is what you think of Die's reasonings for his vote for me. Personally I'm not sure to read it as a noob tell, scum tell, or simply a misunderstanding.

From what I've read on Die my opinion is the case is indeed newbie.
The case is also possibly town or scum and I am not sure of my feelings on that. Nothing about the case seems inherently scummy, but that doesn't mean it's a case being pushed by town, if you get the distinction.
I do not see a misunderstanding in his accusations on you as the case is as coherent as Die's other postings. He has seemed fairly clear about what he thinks you have done that he considers scummy.

Could you re-state your case on Die please?


=======================Boring Rules Part=================================

And general question as to the topic of getting lynched.
# Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players may continue to post.
# Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post except for a brief “Bah!”-type post.

I'm interpreting the first rule as, whomever ends up getting enough votes to be lynched will still be allowed to make arguments, the person will still get lynched nonetheless but will be allowed to post whatever until his death scene.

The bah post must be brief and can maybe contain some suggestions and thats it.

Are these interpretations correct?

The way I read it and play it is as follows;

Once you are lynched you are killed, as it says in the rules; "Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill)" the death scene has *nothing* to do with killing you. The lynch is what kills you. Therefore once you are lynched you are only allowed one post.

The Bah post may not contain any suggestions other then something exceedingly generic (e.g. Go Town! or Scum will win! or Bah, you fools...) that is it - you may not include suggestions as that is content relevant to the game.

[Pulindar]

Hey guys, I'm sorry but I'm having a bit of trouble getting on. Some work and papers and such popped up a bit too heavily for me I

Should

be able to do a good update tomorrow. Sorry.

Ugh lots of wall posts to respond to too... ok tomorrow I should be able to get to it.

[Nachomamma8]

This, right here. I intended to say the towniest-looking people are the best NKs. Lynches was a mistype that I didn't catch, and I apologize for any misinterpretation this caused.

Thanks for the clarification . You've dropped back down in my scumlist a fair bit.

I bet that it is relatively rare that there's nobody that one considers town, or at least townie-looking, even if they never share this information. That said, discounting someone from suspicion for seeming too townie is a fatal mistake that I'm not looking to make again any time soon. Sure, maybe I can be convinced, but I know it'll take me more to be convinced if I feel they look townie than if I don't. It's not as if I'm asserting you should suspect everyone equally!

And I'm certainly not suggesting you should remove people from suspicion entirely, as you seemed to be concerned about .

In my opinion, scum reads are always relevant, town reads are only relevant if they help catch scum or stop a mislynch.

Town reads help catch scum immensely. It's easier to find scum when you're concentrated on a smaller pool of people, wouldn't you agree?

Personally, I don't see it as a tell one way or the other. It's the fact that it's been clearly shown to not have been genuine that makes me think scum.

As scum, what do you think his intent of the trap would be?

Now I am definitely being misinterpreted, though I suspect unintentionally. I said that scum wasn't necessarily on it. It is possible that there was opportunistic scum, but I see it as totally reasonable that there were 4 townies on the wagon.

Then what's making you lean towards an all townie wagon other than your own presence on it?

How convinced of this are you? Do you believe you can ever truly "know" who town is, unless you're scum? Also, what do you make of the way that SB went about his gambit?

I'm fairly convinced, I'd say. And no, you can't truly know who town is unless you're scum/cop...

I think the gambit was executed poorly, but the townie intentions behind it (to me, at least) are clear. Had an experienced mafioso done it, it might've gone better, but I don't think he would've done it quite the same way (i.e. the anger would've been more aggressive and would painted hiphop/Thor as scummier).

and what his [Nachomamma8's] read on you [Pulindar] is...

Ooh! I think I can answer this one!

Pulindar hasn't been playing to any type of meta I've seen him play as before, which makes me uneasy. I really can't tell what alignment he is because I can see Pulindar meta-breaking as town or scum. The posts he have made have been good, however, and they offset the lurking to bring his read to a grand total of null.

[Sauron]

TL:DR

Conclusion: I dont see (or i cant see) Thor revealing too much of himself. But...
1. He attacks people, asks a lot of questions (even some of them are not that useful)
2. In a part of this game, he asks a lot about the bandwagoning to some players. Here at this point i think he was fishing scum – Who would be interested on one of these lynches? This is the question i think he made for himself. And this is the point that makes me think that Thor is town. I can have missed other fish questions, though it would just compliment what I am saying.

This seems like a pair of weak arguments.
1. Strikes me as good town play
2. There is asking about bandwagons in a way that is basically "Hey, this dude's a good lynch, you wanna go ahead and lynch? I will if you will", and then there's Thor that reads far more like "I have my positions, and I think they're clear. Please clarify yours, and here's a springboard."

If you want to convince us Thor is scum, ya gotta do better than that. Of course, I don't expect the scum to make any better of an argument, so I'm not holding my breath in this regard.

I'm not sure whether to call this scummy as a misrep, scummy for attempted buddying, or simply bad reading comprehension.

I can't conceive of a misrep that bad, so I'm going to go with not enough reading comprehension and maybe some buddying.

You are correct on one count, at least. I somehow completely missed the part where Die stated he saw you as town. In fact, I didn't even pick that up until AV bolded it out for me. Yeah, I realize the capacity of fail there. I reject the buddying claim, though. I can see how rejecting someone's argument about scumminess could potentially look like buddying, but I was mostly trying to get Die to come up with legitimate arguments if he was going to push a scum case on you. Given that, though, I can see how I can be misread when we're essentially both thinking I had replied to different posts entirely.

@Sauron - you're tunneling. The reason you just attacked Die over this is because you're too excited and too convinced by the idea that Die is scum. Step back, re-look over your evidence. Everything he says doesn't have to be scummy.

This is much harder to respond to given the fact I had misread, but I feel I should explain this a bit. The reason I attacked Die was to try to gauge the response and try to get more of a read on him. As I said before, my read on him over time has looked vaguely like a seismograph, so I was hoping to nail it down a bit more one way or the other, while having someone else do the more in-depth digging on you, since you are so low on my suspect list I'd rather not dig too hard on my own when I don't have to. My assertion at the end about Die's scumminess was, again, to gauge reaction, rather than any actual confidence in the assertion.

Could you please offer a short summation (4 sentences or less) as to why you think Die is scummy?

I feel like this is less necessary, post-clarification, but to give a brief outline of why I'm so uncertain about Die: he seems to have a strong feeling that he must survive, to the point where he seems to be trying to blend in rather than help and, consequently, I feel he has contributed very little to the game on the whole. Given this, you can see why my suspicions on him vary so wildly with time.


I will, however, agree with your original accusation of tunnelling, to an extent. I have directly focused on silver and Die far more than any other player. This is due in part to me attempting different ways of getting reads on others, as well as reading off of other peoples' work rather than retreading ground. However, it is also due to me being unsure how to fully deal with 8 other people at a time, so I'm trying to get a hold on just a couple at a time before moving on. This technique was fairly successful in catching the RB in my first game, so it's possible that I only think that it is more successful than it is. I am trying to figure out how best to work in here, and, as this is a newbie game, I am open to any tips anyone has for how to best get a handle on so many different people at once.

Sauron, he's saying that he thinks Thor is town here. Bolded the relevant part.

What do you think of other, more subtle possible scum? I'm thinking here of Jerako and Pulindar?

As I've stated before, Jerako is the one I peg as a 50/50. I have no idea where he stands, and I won't be surprised if it goes either way. Unsurprisingly, this is an avenue I am interested in exploring in further depth in the very near future.

Pulindar is even harder than Jerako, in some ways. While Jerako is kind of giving me a 50/50 read, I'm simply finding myself unable to read Pulindar. My strongest suspicion right now is a townie working harder at playing the metagame than the game, though, so Pulindar is lower on my list of priority of people to investigate.

This, right here. I intended to say the towniest-looking people are the best NKs. Lynches was a mistype that I didn't catch, and I apologize for any misinterpretation this caused.

Thanks for the clarification . You've dropped back down in my scumlist a fair bit.

No problem. I was pretty horrified when I noticed the mistype (it took me a couple rereads of you saying "that's what NKs are for" before I realized) and how drastically it changed the message.

In my opinion, scum reads are always relevant, town reads are only relevant if they help catch scum or stop a mislynch.

Town reads help catch scum immensely. It's easier to find scum when you're concentrated on a smaller pool of people, wouldn't you agree?

Sure, but the scum are already concentrating that pool for us, and it's more helpful if they concentrate it more, which they do when they don't kill the people we feel are most town. Moreover, concentrating the pool of people can be dangerous (again, something I'm overly worried about thanks to my previous game and the "obvious newbtown" that was actually scum).

Personally, I don't see it as a tell one way or the other. It's the fact that it's been clearly shown to not have been genuine that makes me think scum.

As scum, what do you think his intent of the trap would be?

Wrong question. I don't see how it works as a trap, neither as town, nor as scum. What I do see is it being an attempt for scum to say "See? I'm so frustrated that you can't see this, so I must be town!"

Unfortunately, the name of the cognitive bias isn't coming to mind but it goes like this: As town, I know that I am town, and everything I do looks townie to me with this knowledge. Therefore, I think everything I do should look townie to everyone else. If someone else doesn't think this is so, I get frustrated because it's so blindingly obvious that I'm town.

I'm fairly sure this is common among newbies (I remember feeling it a few times in my first game, though it's alleviated since then), but I find it harder to believe that this actually would culminate in somebody getting all shouty and cussy. However, I can see the scum using this, basically setting up the affirmation "see, I feel the same frustration you do, so I'm also town! The scum have no reason to feel this frustration". It's simply the version of events that makes more sense to me at the moment.

Now I am definitely being misinterpreted, though I suspect unintentionally. I said that scum wasn't necessarily on it. It is possible that there was opportunistic scum, but I see it as totally reasonable that there were 4 townies on the wagon.

Then what's making you lean towards an all townie wagon other than your own presence on it?

Nuh-uh, not what I said. I'm basically taking the annoyingly non-committal response here of "I don't know if there's scum on it or not, but there's no particular reason there should or shouldn't be". I'm still not leaning other way on this wagon, except that SB was on it, and SB actually is one of my major scum suspects right now. Thus, if anything, I'm leaning away from an all-townie wagon, but either way it's not based on the logic of the wagon itself.

[hiphop]

You guys post a lot. I will get to you guys in the morning, after I read what has been said.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Replacing Jerako for failing to pick up a prod.

[silverbullet999]

TLDR

Stating my case on Die which is his reasons for voting me
Also asking for Thor's opinion

---------------------------------Thor------------------

Could you re-state your case on Die please?

My Case on die... is his case on me.
He Originally votes me because of this.

The step Silver takes to attack [no]/Sauron is more scummy than the replacement. You try to give an easy target to town, saying he is scum for that - when he flips town after lynched, its also easy to say it was a mistake, cause its hard to tell the difference btw newbie tell and scum tell.

For this reason

Vote Silver

He then states that his reason for voting me is below.

About Thor and Silver: as you can notice, i already placed my vote on Silver. The reason i did that is because of the anger post. I cant believe that someone gets so angered on that pressure by being townie. He overreacted without reason, i think, because the points Thor raised were not misrepresenting Silver.

I vote him and tell him this contradiction... I also ask if he simply doesn't believe that my anger with hip (which he seems to confuse with Thor) was actually a method he states

You are correct. I do contradict myself, but i hadnt notice that till now. You can take both of them.

A plan to get hiphop? Who would think of that? You were talking to someone outside the thread to plan something? Because this is the first time you mention

Its for these reasons I voted for him... I'm going to keep the pressure on him until he clarifies all this. If you see something wrong with my case please tell me thor as I stated before... it's possible that I'm just misinterpreting things or something of the sort.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[hiphop]

A lot is being made of contradictions. Do you think that you have contradicted yourself on either of these counts:
(i) Your belief of scum/town tells through (over)reactions?
(ii) Your method of offence/defence in scumhunting?

I believe you are making way too many assumptions. I never said that calmness=scumminess. I did have a problem however with you believing that calmness=towniness as you state in post 204 and here is the quote in question:

The reason I was leaning to you being townie, SB, was your calm and mature responses to the questions - "I'm happy to answer any questions you have, whatever will help clear anything up about me" - even when you were pressed by Thor, you maintained this reaction. But...wow...that changed pretty dramatically, eh?

Meaning calmness equals towniness, not true. Scum and town both do it. It does not mean he is town because he is calm. My reasons for fos are because of his actual scumtells not his calmness that he puts out. So it was you who made them black and white not me.

As for the second question, where is there a contradiction?

I ask the question because I had been (very slightly) abrasive/aggressive towards him and had received an angry response. You then came in with a stronger level (in my opinion) of aggressive and abrasive play and got a stronger reaction from him.

You then cited this reaction as scummy and an appeal to emotion.

When you wrote your post, it seems fairly likely it would have been easy to expect his reaction would be heated in response which makes me wonder why you did so when you seem to consider anger a reasonable scumtell?

First of all, I find that interesting when nacho posts this about it:

The idea that the anger was sparked by "fear of being caught" isn't really valid, considering the lack of aggression on hiphop's part.

One says stronger, the other not much. Funny how that works.

And no, I did not know what I was going to get back from that post, as I said I don't think about the reactions before they happen. Now either a) he meant it or b) he didn't, because by your reactions it seems like you believe he actually meant it. Yet he said it was put on. Now which do you believe? Because your argument is null, if that wasn't his actual response. So you must believe he lied. I have been thinking about it, and I think that his anger response was real, and later as he was thinking about it, he can say, "Oh I can say it was an act to get hiphop." Which sort of puts him in a double whammy.

In my previous game a newbie was playing just like [no]. Flipped townie after lynched.

So why did you vote for him?

At the moment my read on [no] keeps the same, and it wont change because he is not here anymore. My read on Sauron, for now, its way less scummy than [no].

So,

unvote

Lol. You say that your read on [no] is scummy, and it will not change. However your read on Sauron deserves an unvote? Do not Sauron and [no] have the same role? Looks to me like more you can no longer find anything on sauron, so you can't keep your vote on him, because people will call you out. Another way for the town to turn your head from you. Right?

Die- your concentration on the experienced players is silly, because you are not looking at any of the newbies. I am taking this argument to be more of two newbies are scum, so therefore we need to get rid of the experienced players, now when we can get some sympathy. Besides nacho is attacking me.

Now for nacho's 260. --------------------------

Scum already know who the townies are, so why would they need to search for them?

Scum do not know which townies are the best nk's, which is my whole point. That is why I said it was the scum's job to find townies, not the town's. Besides what do you gain by telling everybody who the town is? Focus more on finding the scum.

I already asked Thor, but do you believe that it was real anger, because again you are questioning as if the anger was real. Now was it?

Oh and I didn't think the person who was attacking me was scum. first game So that argument does not fly with me.

There is no evidence to say he wasn't. So it is the only logical thing he can do.

If it's the only logical thing he can do, how is it scummy?

Now you are misrepping me. you said

Folding on the no-scumhunting charge: I'm not sure why you see this as scummy. Realizing your mistakes and making efforts to change them is one of the most protown things you can do in the game of mafia. It's extremely hard for scum to say "yeah, I'm lurking" because they're afraid of the question coming next: "Well, why shouldn't we just lynch you?"

And than I came back with that quote. So the question is not why I think that is scummy, but if it is the most logical thing to do, how is that townie? Don't come back with a question like that, when I was clearly pointing it the comment at you, and not to SB being scummy.
--------------------------------------------------------
Silver's 275

Could you please quote where I say... "I am going to wait to day two to get reads"? I have said that I am going to wait to day two to start scumhunting so I merely assumed that is what you meant. To me getting reads is forming an opinion of people and I do have an opinion of everyone here. It doesn't seem like you'll believe this... do you want me to openly state my take on everyone? Also why do the second and third question no longer matter to you? Is this an agreement that you mistook my words and now agree that I didn't want to lynch [no] asap?

How many times have I quoted it and linked it already, you wrote it, not me. But here it is

When day 2 rolls around I can try to get reads on others

As I said you are the one that wrote it. I don't see where you say that is where you will scumhunt until thor brought it up.

As I said, no. Your top two will do.

They don't matter because the part where you wanted to lynch [no] asap, you can't defend, when it is black and white, and the part of being replaced you have said you were wrong, so I prefer not to argue the point.
-----------------------

Thor's 281- Is the reason for the last question, because you think I am tunneling on die? And no, your interpretation is valid of Sauron's response to the quote in question, however it doesn't change my read of Die.

Now based on what has been said, I still think die and Silver are a tossup. And being they are voting for each other only adds to my suspicion that one of them is scum.

[AurorusVox]

A lot is being made of contradictions. Do you think that you have contradicted yourself on either of these counts:
(i) Your belief of scum/town tells through (over)reactions?
(ii) Your method of offence/defence in scumhunting?

I believe you are making way too many assumptions. I never said that calmness=scumminess. I did have a problem however with you believing that calmness=towniness as you state in post 204 and here is the quote in question:

The reason I was leaning to you being townie, SB, was your calm and mature responses to the questions - "I'm happy to answer any questions you have, whatever will help clear anything up about me" - even when you were pressed by Thor, you maintained this reaction. But...wow...that changed pretty dramatically, eh?

Meaning calmness equals towniness, not true. Scum and town both do it. It does not mean he is town because he is calm. My reasons for fos are because of his actual scumtells not his calmness that he puts out. So it was you who made them black and white not me.

As for the second question, where is there a contradiction?

I'd have thought if I was voting for you, you might have made more of an effort to answer my questions. I'll put it in a simpler way:

Do you think overreactions are scumtells?

In the quote of mine that you quoted, I don't only talk about his calmness. I also talk about his maturity in being willing to answer any and all questions that anyone may have of him. A maturity that I see you seem to be lacking since you swerved around my questions.

I accept that the second of my questions may be irrelevant to you if you think that it is ME who made the "black and white" distinctions in your voice, but why do you then also ask where the contradiction lies? I asked what your opinion was on the POTENTIAL for contradiction - why have you not tackled that directly rather than asking me ? By directly, I mean, you've implied the answer in what you've said - but you have also reacted to the question as though you don't have an answer.

[AurorusVox]

I don't know how the above got posted. Sorry, I'm drinking cider, so I might not make much sense. Umm. I am upset that Jerako has replaced out. I had questions to ask him.

One of the major reasons I was suspicious of Jerako was because he wasn't posting responses to the questions earlier. But now it seems he might have just gone AWOL

[hiphop]

Do you think overreactions are scumtells?

minor ones. I don't take them into account as much as the true meaning of a post. For instance when a scum slips. I don't find AtE that thrilling, as to the case I presented before the AtE.

In the quote of mine that you quoted, I don't only talk about his calmness. I also talk about his maturity in being willing to answer any and all questions that anyone may have of him. A maturity that I see you seem to be lacking since you swerved around my questions.

I did answer your questions. i never said that calmness=scum. You assumed I did. Therefore when i said overeaction is an AtE, how did I contradict myself? Because I never did. I may never said directly no I did not contradict myself, but I thought it was obvious.

What about you, do you think overreactions are scumtells?

I accept that the second of my questions may be irrelevant to you if you think that it is ME who made the "black and white" distinctions in your voice, but why do you then also ask where the contradiction lies? I asked what your opinion was on the POTENTIAL for contradiction - why have you not tackled that directly rather than asking me ? By directly, I mean, you've implied the answer in what you've said - but you have also reacted to the question as though you don't have an answer.

Because i did not know what you were refering to when you asked me the second question. Whether it was something I did before hand, or just did. So no I don't believe I contradicted myself.

Potential? You asked me if I thought I contradicted myself in my offense/defense. Which to me refers to the past, but if you are now saying the potential, as in what is the potential of that basketball player, or what is the potentiall of me contradicting myself in the future, well than that changes things. The question that I will answer now that you

just posed

to me, in which I had to find in between the lines, is do you find yourself contradicting yourself in the future? That is a blatant I don't know.

So I ask you, how can I read what you just wrote in the past? I can't answer a question that you write in the future, can I? *consider this spot the answer to your question in your next post*

[Thor665]

If you see something wrong with my case please tell me thor as I stated before... it's possible that I'm just misinterpreting things or something of the sort.

I look at his response to you as translating thusly; "you're right, I did give two separate reasons for the vote. I claim both of them as worthwhile."

Though in other news

Unvote:silverbullet999

I'm moving him down my scumlist. I still very much don't like his faked anger thing but I see a lot of attempted scumhunting and discussion now and it seems reasonable to suppose he was going for the fancy entrapment plan he earlier discussed.

[referencing me and Nacho regarding his abrasiveness]
One says stronger, the other not much. Funny how that works.

No, actually, it isn't. Nacho said you weren't very abrasive and I said you were more abrasive then me. Both statements can be true and both Nacho and I could agree to the other statement without invalidating our own.

by your reactions it seems like you believe he actually meant it. Yet he said it was put on. Now which do you believe? Because your argument is null, if that wasn't his actual response.

This is incorrect. (for the record, I openly said I believed his reaction was faked prior to him admitting it)

Whether or not I believe his reaction is faked has no bearing to whether or not I believe you were fishing to get an angry reaction that you could call scummy.

Thor's 281- Is the reason for the last question, because you think I am tunneling on die?

No, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on how your wagon partner was tunneling on Die. I do think you've appeared overly focused on Die and silverbullet but I wouldn't call it tunnelling

Now based on what has been said, I still think die and Silver are a tossup. And being they are voting for each other only adds to my suspicion that one of them is scum.

Why is this? I could see plenty of reasons for a town/scum combo to be voting each other and even reasons for a town/town combo. Why are you so sure of a scum/scum combo?

Vote:hiphop

This is largely on gut, unfortunately, but I don't like how he's setting up an "obvious" scumpair with no apparent logic to back it up other then that he suspects both of them individually. Also, i find some of his answers to be a bit dodgy/dismissive in nature which suggests to me a potential attempt at hiding from examination.