Newbie 996 - Starting Small [Game Over]

[moose200x]

You

[smargaret]

Fair enough.

[moose200x]

smar or doubt- are you doc? doc needs to claim asap

[smargaret]

Any reason why?

[moose200x]

srsly, if we have doc come out then it's 2 clear 3 not so it's 33% random chance, then they kill doc and it's 1 clear and 2 not, 50% chance

[smargaret]

If we even have a doc. There's no guarantee that we even have one in the game.

[moose200x]

I am going to assume we do since jim said to block me.....

any who, i guess ur saying your VT?

[smargaret]

jim could have been lying to open the way for a fakeclaim from his partner.

I think making any sort of claim right now is a bad idea. Someone claiming doc right now cannot be confirmed town (absence of a counter could just mean that there were two goons and a cop), and claiming VT narrows the mafia's pool of potential docs if there is one in the game. So until more people want me to claim my role, I'm not going to.

[Parama]

unvote, vote: jimfinn

Moose is not active lurking. Get that through your brain.

Trying to get jimfinn to vote for a real reason? (this is different from the one with me and jim because jim was trying to prompt me, while in this case Parama is prompting jim)

Or voting scum for a "serious" vote that has no logical basis behind it.

I encourage active posting, but a lot of what you're posting now is indeed spam, moose. Only post when you have something to say, not when you just want to say something.

Jim doesn't look any better after his most recent post.

His most recent post:

@Doc: Regarding my comments about you being too town, that is because you seemed to being trying too hard to appear town (e.g. saying things like "you don't want to jokingly claim scum") that certainly have the ring of a scum who wants to act like he is helping the town but really is saying something unlikely to ever be needed again this game that it doesn't really help the town that much.

As a newer player formerly used to f2f mafia, I'm still trying to get used to the day start and not being able to scumhunt based on night actions; D1 scumhunting is rather difficult for me. I certainly don't want a lynch, especially not on p3 of D1, I'm just pointing out comparatively scummy actions in the hope of starting discussion and moving past the RVS.

Just stating facts, makes a valid point on DMSIS, tries to tell the town he needs time to analyze. How's that scummy?

He attempted to make an argument against DMSIS without providing any evidence - we can't check for ourselves if what jim is saying is true, because we don't know what he's referencing. I hate hate hate when people don't provide evidence.
The second paragraph seems like an excuse to not scumhunt during D1.

Jim: Why the delay in your vote on moose? If you thought he was scummiest at the time of your PBPA, why did you not only not switch your vote, but leave it on DMSIS? You unvoted in a later post but still didn't change your vote.

Prompting. Though I'm guilty of this as well.

No, calling out scum for doing scummy things. You can't call someone scummy without telling them why, can you? Plus, I don't remember if he did, but if a scum reacts to a post like this by trying to do what they should've done earlier, they're obviously trying to appease the town. Which makes them look worse.

I absolutely hate your most recent post. Everything about it reeks of scum. Arrogance, ad hominem, ignorance, etc.

unvote, vote: DMSIS

I will lynch either jim or DMSIS today. Whichever one gets a bigger wagon, I don't care which. They're both scum, and blatantly obvious scumbuddies. I refuse to lynch anyone but these two, because these are our two scum.

You seem so sure... you're definitely trying to lynch one of them, seeing that you think they are scumbuddies. I've stated that I don't quite see the relationship between jim and DMSIS, you didn't respond.

I don't respond to every post in the thread, and I had already given my reasons as to why I thought they were scum together anyways.

unvote

Anyone counterclaim? If there IS a counterclaim, we need to hear it NOW.

Why unvote? jim was at L-2 at that point, scum can't quickhammer and before a cc no town would put a claimed cop at L-1 (because as I said, it favors scum to do a scum-cop trade)

Who the hell leaves their vote on a claimed power role, though?

List (scummiest at top, townest at bottom - self-excluded)
Cliquey
Parama
Johannes

Doubtful
Chaodck

put here because they haven't done anything pro=town or anti=town, so impossible to get a good read.

I love how he left doubtful in the null zone.

This is brilliant. My earlier suspicions confirmed - scum is probably in Doubtful/smargaret.

Also, Smargaret needs to stop fighting my battles.

[Doubtful]

smargaret: It is WIFOM because jim can do whatever he wants, you can't get evidence from that. You can't say: Oh if Parama is scum it must be bussing... if Parama is town his suspect turned out scum... because the truth is: jim was acting scummy - we all know it. If you say that Parama is town in this scenario, him being scum should be a deviation, and similarly if you say Parama is scum in this scenario, him being town should be a deviation. Thus, you can't conclude anything.

Parama:

unvote, vote: jimfinn

Moose is not active lurking. Get that through your brain.

Trying to get jimfinn to vote for a real reason? (this is different from the one with me and jim because jim was trying to prompt me, while in this case Parama is prompting jim)

Or voting scum for a "serious" vote that has no logical basis behind it.

I understand your vote: just not the way you state it. It feels like you are trying to get jimfinn to unvote moose, and then vote someone else with a real reason - by saying that his reason was null (which it indeed was) and then allowing him to switch targets.

I encourage active posting, but a lot of what you're posting now is indeed spam, moose. Only post when you have something to say, not when you just want to say something.

Jim doesn't look any better after his most recent post.

His most recent post:

@Doc: Regarding my comments about you being too town, that is because you seemed to being trying too hard to appear town (e.g. saying things like "you don't want to jokingly claim scum") that certainly have the ring of a scum who wants to act like he is helping the town but really is saying something unlikely to ever be needed again this game that it doesn't really help the town that much.

As a newer player formerly used to f2f mafia, I'm still trying to get used to the day start and not being able to scumhunt based on night actions; D1 scumhunting is rather difficult for me. I certainly don't want a lynch, especially not on p3 of D1, I'm just pointing out comparatively scummy actions in the hope of starting discussion and moving past the RVS.

Just stating facts, makes a valid point on DMSIS, tries to tell the town he needs time to analyze. How's that scummy?

He attempted to make an argument against DMSIS without providing any evidence - we can't check for ourselves if what jim is saying is true, because we don't know what he's referencing. I hate hate hate when people don't provide evidence.
The second paragraph seems like an excuse to not scumhunt during D1.

Well... jim is trying to make an argument on the basis that "X is too town, so we should lynch X", which is actually quite common in F2F, AFAIK.
On the second paragraph: I interpret it as more him saying that he needs time to look at all the cases, accepting the value of D1 scumhunting. To me jim seems quite logical in this post.

Jim: Why the delay in your vote on moose? If you thought he was scummiest at the time of your PBPA, why did you not only not switch your vote, but leave it on DMSIS? You unvoted in a later post but still didn't change your vote.

Prompting. Though I'm guilty of this as well.

No, calling out scum for doing scummy things. You can't call someone scummy without telling them why, can you? Plus, I don't remember if he did, but if a scum reacts to a post like this by trying to do what they should've done earlier, they're obviously trying to appease the town. Which makes them look worse.

Well, if you're town, made an analysis, and forgot to vote in the end, what would you do when asked for a vote? Yes, he did vote according to what you said about moose. He could just be being F2F'ish again and think voting someone = tunneling on them.

I absolutely hate your most recent post. Everything about it reeks of scum. Arrogance, ad hominem, ignorance, etc.

unvote, vote: DMSIS

I will lynch either jim or DMSIS today. Whichever one gets a bigger wagon, I don't care which. They're both scum, and blatantly obvious scumbuddies. I refuse to lynch anyone but these two, because these are our two scum.

You seem so sure... you're definitely trying to lynch one of them, seeing that you think they are scumbuddies. I've stated that I don't quite see the relationship between jim and DMSIS, you didn't respond.

I don't respond to every post in the thread, and I had already given my reasons as to why I thought they were scum together anyways.

At that point in time the only interaction between jim and DMSIS was DMSIS voting jim for his scumtells and jim voting DMSIS for... no real reason. Can't exactly form a "buddy" relationship based on that alone. I understand your individual concerns on both of them, it's the link that I think is lacking in your argument at that time.

unvote

Anyone counterclaim? If there IS a counterclaim, we need to hear it NOW.

Why unvote? jim was at L-2 at that point, scum can't quickhammer and before a cc no town would put a claimed cop at L-1 (because as I said, it favors scum to do a scum-cop trade)

Who the hell leaves their vote on a claimed power role, though?

I thought you said that you were 97% sure DMSIS and jim were scumbuddies, and 100% sure that one of them was scum? Also, even if there's no cc I wouldn't trust jim, and question him further. I unvoted because I didn't want scum to quickhammer, when you unvoted that wasn't a problem, so there was none.

And that list?

More WIFOM. Like I say, when jim flips scum you can't trust what he says. Could easily be trying to set me/chaodck/smargaret up with that list so that other people will reference it. WIFOM.

[Parama]

Parama:

unvote, vote: jimfinn

Moose is not active lurking. Get that through your brain.

Trying to get jimfinn to vote for a real reason? (this is different from the one with me and jim because jim was trying to prompt me, while in this case Parama is prompting jim)

Or voting scum for a "serious" vote that has no logical basis behind it.

I understand your vote: just not the way you state it. It feels like you are trying to get jimfinn to unvote moose, and then vote someone else with a real reason - by saying that his reason was null (which it indeed was) and then allowing him to switch targets.

In which scenario, he is trying to appease the town, which makes himself look worse.
Protip: Townies have no reason to appease anyone

I encourage active posting, but a lot of what you're posting now is indeed spam, moose. Only post when you have something to say, not when you just want to say something.

Jim doesn't look any better after his most recent post.

His most recent post:

@Doc: Regarding my comments about you being too town, that is because you seemed to being trying too hard to appear town (e.g. saying things like "you don't want to jokingly claim scum") that certainly have the ring of a scum who wants to act like he is helping the town but really is saying something unlikely to ever be needed again this game that it doesn't really help the town that much.

As a newer player formerly used to f2f mafia, I'm still trying to get used to the day start and not being able to scumhunt based on night actions; D1 scumhunting is rather difficult for me. I certainly don't want a lynch, especially not on p3 of D1, I'm just pointing out comparatively scummy actions in the hope of starting discussion and moving past the RVS.

Just stating facts, makes a valid point on DMSIS, tries to tell the town he needs time to analyze. How's that scummy?

He attempted to make an argument against DMSIS without providing any evidence - we can't check for ourselves if what jim is saying is true, because we don't know what he's referencing. I hate hate hate when people don't provide evidence.
The second paragraph seems like an excuse to not scumhunt during D1.

Well... jim is trying to make an argument on the basis that "X is too town, so we should lynch X", which is actually quite common in F2F, AFAIK.
On the second paragraph: I interpret it as more him saying that he needs time to look at all the cases, accepting the value of D1 scumhunting. To me jim seems quite logical in this post.

Too Townie To Be Town Fallacy is terrible logic always, but that wasn't his argument anyways <.<
Meh, I guess you could take the 2nd paragraph like that.

Jim: Why the delay in your vote on moose? If you thought he was scummiest at the time of your PBPA, why did you not only not switch your vote, but leave it on DMSIS? You unvoted in a later post but still didn't change your vote.

Prompting. Though I'm guilty of this as well.

No, calling out scum for doing scummy things. You can't call someone scummy without telling them why, can you? Plus, I don't remember if he did, but if a scum reacts to a post like this by trying to do what they should've done earlier, they're obviously trying to appease the town. Which makes them look worse.

Well, if you're town, made an analysis, and forgot to vote in the end, what would you do when asked for a vote? Yes, he did vote according to what you said about moose. He could just be being F2F'ish again and think voting someone = tunneling on them.

It's not that he didn't switch his vote immediately during the post - I can chalk that one up to bad memory. The real issue is that he noticed his lack of unvote earlier, corrected that mistake, yet STILL refused to vote for his #1 suspect. If I had forgotten a vote at the end of a case, and someone pointed this out, I'd probably vote, yes. jim realized his mistake BEFORE I pointed it out, yet did not decide to fix it. That's the difference between what you're describing and what actually happened.

I absolutely hate your most recent post. Everything about it reeks of scum. Arrogance, ad hominem, ignorance, etc.

unvote, vote: DMSIS

I will lynch either jim or DMSIS today. Whichever one gets a bigger wagon, I don't care which. They're both scum, and blatantly obvious scumbuddies. I refuse to lynch anyone but these two, because these are our two scum.

You seem so sure... you're definitely trying to lynch one of them, seeing that you think they are scumbuddies. I've stated that I don't quite see the relationship between jim and DMSIS, you didn't respond.

I don't respond to every post in the thread, and I had already given my reasons as to why I thought they were scum together anyways.

At that point in time the only interaction between jim and DMSIS was DMSIS voting jim for his scumtells and jim voting DMSIS for... no real reason. Can't exactly form a "buddy" relationship based on that alone. I understand your individual concerns on both of them, it's the link that I think is lacking in your argument at that time

jim made a half-hearted PBPA on DMSIS and went from deciding he was scummy to deciding he was not and unvoted him.
DMSIS unvoted jim right when he saw that jim was leading in votes, switching to BM.

See what I'm seeing?
also gtg more later

[kunkstar7]

:: VoteCount 3x2 ::

moose200x (0) -
smargaret (0) -
Doubtful (1) -

smargaret

Parama (1) -

Doubtful

Cliquey (0) -

Not Voting (3) -

moose200x, Parama, Cliquey

With 5 Alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Deadline - September 15, 2010 8:00PM EST.

[Parama]

unvote

Anyone counterclaim? If there IS a counterclaim, we need to hear it NOW.

Why unvote? jim was at L-2 at that point, scum can't quickhammer and before a cc no town would put a claimed cop at L-1 (because as I said, it favors scum to do a scum-cop trade)

Who the hell leaves their vote on a claimed power role, though?

I thought you said that you were 97% sure DMSIS and jim were scumbuddies, and 100% sure that one of them was scum? Also, even if there's no cc I wouldn't trust jim, and question him further. I unvoted because I didn't want scum to quickhammer, when you unvoted that wasn't a problem, so there was none.

It is anti-town to leave a vote on a claimed power role, especially when the town has room for error remaining. There's still 1 other scum even if the claim is fake. The town should NOT listen to the PR claim if the player is still suspicious enough to be distrusted (scum fakeclaim could lead town off a scum lynch onto a town one if town lets them) and the town should try to come to the most logical conclusion on who's scum.
The only issue is the doc/cop combo claim in the all-vanilla setup, but bleeeh that's non-applicable.

This isn't my argument, it's a theory argument, and I'll go more in-depth with it postgame if you want me to.

And that list?

More WIFOM. Like I say, when jim flips scum you can't trust what he says. Could easily be trying to set me/chaodck/smargaret up with that list so that other people will reference it. WIFOM.

I hate how you're dismissing a lot of things as WIFOM, but I guess I can see where you're coming from. It's not completely null just because of the WIFOM possibility, however.

[Doubtful]

Parama: I understand what you mean, dismissing things as WIFOM, but all of the evidence against me is basically putting DMSIS and then jimfinn at L-1 and WIFOM created by jim's hinting towards me being scum, as far as I can interpret.

OK. jim hints towards relationship with me. I deny any with him. He turns out scum. So? What do you conclude?

And about your first point,

If town doesn't have room for error remaining, then you know that the person you voted who claimed PR is scum (lack of quickhammer)
There's still one other scum if the claim is fake. Yes. So?
The town should NOT listen to the PR claim if the player is still suspicious enough to be distrusted. I thought you were 100% sure jim was scum? And we can still discuss when claimed PR is at L-2...
The town should try to come to the most logical conclusion on who's scum. We did, and we would've done the same without the unvote. It just seemed that you were taking your chances, hoping that there's no cc and saving jim as a result if your scum, and a useless move if you're town.
Yes, doc/cop combo claim is non-applicable, because there hasn't been a doc claim yet!

[Doubtful]

We have one more chance to hypothesis test before we can't screw up. Lets make it count.

I'm going to reassess what I think now that we have two bits of solid information.

However, I probably won't get back to you guys until tomorrow. I'm doing a mass-project concerning replacements in newbies and the likelihoods of being aligned a certain way.

moose, you said you were going to read over at night, so I'm looking for something substantial from you.

Cliquey: Have you reassessed?

[Parama]

Parama: I understand what you mean, dismissing things as WIFOM, but all of the evidence against me is basically putting DMSIS and then jimfinn at L-1 and WIFOM created by jim's hinting towards me being scum, as far as I can interpret.

To be quite honest I'm not interested in the case against you.

OK. jim hints towards relationship with me. I deny any with him. He turns out scum. So? What do you conclude?

WIFOM.

If town doesn't have room for error remaining, then you know that the person you voted who claimed PR is scum (lack of quickhammer)

UNLESS both scum are already on the wagon. If a townie is on the wagon then yeah

There's still one other scum if the claim is fake. Yes. So?

So it means that we can find that other scum without taking this risk of lynching a PR claim.

The town should NOT listen to the PR claim if the player is still suspicious enough to be distrusted. I thought you were 100% sure jim was scum? And we can still discuss when claimed PR is at L-2...

I did not plan on following any logic he presented - where did I say I would? I waited for a PR cc before anything else.

The town should try to come to the most logical conclusion on who's scum. We did, and we would've done the same without the unvote. It just seemed that you were taking your chances, hoping that there's no cc and saving jim as a result if your scum, and a useless move if you're town.

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT. THIS IS NOT

MY

ARGUMENT. THIS IS GAME THEORY.

Yes, doc/cop combo claim is non-applicable, because there hasn't been a doc claim yet!

I was not talking about this game, but a theoretical setup.

Now you're just trying too hard to turn everything I say into something scummy.

[Doubtful]

Parama: I understand now that you are talking about hypothetical situations, not just game theory related to this setup. I don't agree with your game theory, but I can see how it makes sense as well.

I wasn't trying to turn your game theory blurb into something scummy, it just didn't click for me until I realized that you weren't talking about this specific game, which you clarified in your last post.

[Cliquey]

Spoiler: Little theory

OK, so. If there is a doc in this setup, I am not he. I also think that the doc should claim if they are out there. The doc should 100% be on the cleared cop last night, so if there is a doc and they acted as they should have, that means that the roleblocked guessed right and that the roleblocker knows who the doc is already. This means that there is no downplay for the town from the doc claiming if there is one. However.. I don't think that there is a doctor so thats that. This is my opinion and I don't think I am overlooking anything, correct me if I'm wrong.

Spoiler: Important things

As is stands there are 3 possible candidates for mafia. I'm personally leaning towards smargaret, the attack on doubtful just seems too based on interaction rather than scummy action itself. Doubtful, himself, has struck me as pro-town for much of the game, so I'm not too keen on that lynch. The most damning point, I guess would be the false dichotomy that moose and DMSIS are 100% scum and that Doubtful didn't care which of the two he killed. "They were both scum". Turns out neither of them are...

Parama; I feel is very town, the only problem I have is that Parama is too town, but I recognize the Too Town fallacy and such, do not suspect Parama.

I don't really have any case right now, sadly, but I am kind of without motivation on this game, and the urgency is very low.

Spoiler: Parama

To be quite honest I'm not interested in the case against you.

So which case are you interested in?

[Parama]

Spoiler: Parama

To be quite honest I'm not interested in the case against you.

So which case are you interested in?

Like I said, I need to reread & post notes after that. I'll see who looks scummiest after that. I kinda have a feeling of where my vote will be going but I just want to make sure.

[smargaret]

Okay, so clearly I need to not post here when I can't breathe. I'm sorry.

That said, as Cliquey pointed out, there are three possible mafia. I think everyone pretty much agrees at this point that Doubtful and I are the two scummiest people left. Lynch one of us today and the other one tomorrow.

I'm town, not doc. I'll accept Cliquey's reasoning about the claim.

Cliquey, I'm used to playing face to face and making judgments off of body language. After body language, my second tool was interaction, and that's the one available to me in this medium. Thus, that's what most of my points are based

[Doubtful]

I agree with Cliquey's assessment of doc claiming... though I'm almost sure there's no doc because mafia won't take a risk and allow the cop to get a free inspection. Though I'll go through moose's posts again to see if he hinted towards PR...

Yes, I claim NOT doc.

[Parama]

Ain't no doc here.

[moose200x]

Though I'll go through moose's posts again to see if he hinted towards PR...

why?

[moose200x]

I wish we'd just lynch cliquey.

[smargaret]

Why? What changed?