Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[Jack]

fos:horror

[horrordude0215]

I got it! Jack has the post restriction, and it's to be as anti-town as possible and not do anything!

Seriously though, could you elaborate on the FoS?

[vollkan]

I didn't know there was a difference, voll, except for the subtleties.

There is. To get MD-theoryish for a second:

A person who votes without reasoning and just on gut by definition can't be inconsistent. Since their positions have no ostensible rational basis, a sudden shift in direction can't be attacked (unless, for instance, it appears opportunistic). This is one of the many reasons why I detest gut play.

However, a player who gives reasons, like VI has been doing (even if they are abysmally crap) makes themselves more accountable. To demonstrate, consider the following scenario:

1) (at time = t) Player A: "I Vote: B for doing Q"
2) (at time = t+x) Player A: "I Vote: C for not doing Q"

If Player A is town, that means that at time = t he genuinely believed that Q was scummy. However, he contradicts that if, later on at time = t+x, he votes somebody for not doing anti-Q (which might be not doing Q, or doing the opposite of Q - depends on what Q is). Unless he has a reason for changing his mind on Q's scumminess, then there is a fundamental inconsistency.

Same thing here.

1) Vezok unvotes SS for not posting recently; and
2) Vezok votes Esp for not posting*

(* he made a "I will post soon" post, but it's tantamount to not posting and, in any event, Vezok has failed to respond to this and explain why that post had scummy content)

I'm not.
You'll get my reads day 2.
So Looker looks like town to me. Anyone want to agree?

1) You're not what?
2) This is ridiculous. For starters, if you don't have reads YOU SHOULDN'T BE VOTING ANYBODY! Secondly, I cannot see what difference a D2 flip makes. Imagine Espy is lynched and flips town - what read does that give you? Imagine Espyt flips scum - what read?
3) Despite just having said you won't give reads until D2, you now tell us Looker looks town. Isn't that a read? And why the hell does Looker look town?

Vezok, replace out. You are seriously incapable of playing this game. I can tolerate inexperience, because people can improve, but you are going nowhere in terms of your play. This game requiers reasoning and analysis; you have neither. Leave.

[Looker]

What I'm thinking...

• It's plausible enough for me to call Espeonage town due to the way his wagon built up. It's not enough for me to confirm it, but at least enough for that to be my opinion.
  
• Horrordude, you're placing the likelihood of scum noticing the soft-claim dependent upon whether or not you noticed the soft-claim when the only way there'd be a correlation is if you're scum. It's also safe to say that I was in no danger of being lynched prior to me pointing out the soft-claim, which means I wouldn't have to sneak a message to anyone to do something that, if I were scum, I could've done myself. Also, if we protect him, scum will waste a kill. And yes, your logic very much makes sense.
  
• I called Zwet town to see if he would stop his attacks, in which case they would've been OMGUS as opposed to actual arguments. He stopped his attacks.
  
• I'm voting CKD for the reasons I previously voted him; I only voted Stef for pressure.
  
• Jack still hasn't explained his hunt for post restrictions.

[Stef]

Right. Back in town and I will reread and post soon.

[singersigner]

SS 348 - I see you jumping on a very slight Vez BW and parroting Voll's 345... care to explain?

Yeah, definitely. I look up what you're talking about tomorrow, though, since I'm very shot with band at the moment, and I have another one of these days tomorrow since it's the first home game. Just wanted to let you know I caught this, and will be responding as soon as I can.

[Espeonage]

I have a game that has been very tense and has needed my undivided attention. It is night in that one now so i can catch up on my other games. Expect a post withing the day.

[zwetschenwasser]

Which is not me, by the way; it's vollkan.

Trying to get vollkan killed, eh?

ITT, Looker blatantly lies when he says I stopped my attacks after he called me town.

[Looker]

O, that was an attack? Guess I lied then.

You feel like elaborating on that Freudian slip you found of Horrordude's yet?

[PranaDevil]

Woah there, sorry guys, life kicked me in the kahoneyz and the forum decided that e-mailing me a notification that there were fresh posts for this game was no longer a good idea. Catching up today and will have a post on what's gone down, if you have any questions for me, ask away.

[horrordude0215]

Looker, I'm going to go through your post bit by bit here.

Horrordude, you're placing the likelihood of scum noticing the soft-claim dependent upon whether or not you noticed the soft-claim when the only way there'd be a correlation is if you're scum.

Wrong. I'm just saying that the likelyhood of ANYONE noticing it is extremely unlikely. I don't think anyone else had mentioned it or seen it before that.

Btw, if I could get everyone to comment on this, that'd be great! Did you notice the alleged soft-claim before Looker pointed it out?

It's also safe to say that I was in no danger of being lynched prior to me pointing out the soft-claim, which means I wouldn't have to sneak a message to anyone to do something that, if I were scum, I could've done myself.

This one makes sense, and the only response I would have is that you know the tide can change at any moment, don't you? (Weak argument, I know, but it's a semi-valid point nonetheless)

Also, if we protect him, scum will waste a kill. And yes, your logic very much makes sense.

Looker, you're placing the likelihood of him surviving the night on the fact that we
1) Have a doctor or something similar.
2) Have a doctor that would also assume that is a breadcrumb and would assume scum would see it as well.
3) Have a doctor that would be willing to waste a protection on Snake rather than on someone that they may see more pro-town or valuable for one reason or another.
4) Have a doctor that wouldn't try to WIFOM the scum out.

So basically what you'd be counting on would be that we have a doctor that would also assume that the fact Snake capitalized the letter W in watch in a meaningless post to be a breadcrumb and would assume scum would see it and assume the same as well, the doctor would be willing to waste a protection on Snake rather than on someone that they may see more pro-town or valuable for one reason or another, and wouldn't try to WIFOM the scum out. That seems pretty presumptious, don't you think?

I'm Pretty sure I already know the answer to this, but what's your read on Zwet now?

[vezokpiraka]

I have reads.
I just don't post them day 1.
Horrordude is scum guys. He is not doing anything here guys. Jut setup speculating in hope of fishing.
Let's string him today.

unvote
Vote horrordude

[horrordude0215]

...Huh? Does someone else wanna cover that post or should I?

[horrordude0215]

Screw it, I'm gonna take it.

I have reads.
I just don't post them day 1.

Noted.

Horrordude is scum guys.

I'm sorry, I thought you didn't post your reads on D1?

He is not doing anything here guys.

And what have YOU done lately?

Jut setup speculating in hope of fishing.

I like fishing! What are we going for? Bass or Salmon? Seriously though, how am I fishing?

I'm gonna see if I can look at your meta really quickly before I decide if you're a VI or not, though.

[horrordude0215]

Sorry about the triple post, but unfortunately the meta brought me to see your playstyle as a nulltell because you've had it forever pretty much.

@Vezok... Is english your first language?

[vollkan]

HD has already torn Vezok to shreds, but I find it cathartic so I am going to the same thing.

I have reads.
I just don't post them day 1.

Then you are anti-town and useless

(not that we didn't know that already.

Horrordude is scum guys.

Why is he scum?
And the above is a read, which you just said you weren't going to give.

He is not doing anything here guys. Jut setup speculating in hope of fishing.

He is doing more than that, which is more than I can say for somebody :igmeoy:

[vollkan]

EBWOP:

The igmeoy at the end was not meant to be an IGMEOY of Vezok. I was typing in what I thought was the text code for this emoticon . Turns out it is :igmeo

u

:

[vezokpiraka]

No. no.
Oh. I mean I don't give reads on all the players day 1.
I give reads on some players.
No. English is not my first language.

[PranaDevil]

You shouldn't be going through giving reads of all players at any point. It simply tells scum how you find them compared to everyone else. If everyone starts posting what they think of all the players in the game it gives the scum an easy ride, so that would still be anti-town.

Here's what I think, you don't want to give honest to god reads of anyone or proper explanations as to anything now, and instead want to wait until the following day purely so you can get some help with it from your scum buddies as they can give you some better direction.

vote: Vezok

Sorry, but you're not the best player around, but when I have played against you, you've not been this poor with your day 1 posting (I hate meta generally, but you're not normally making ridiculous posts like the switch to Espy from SS).

As for what's happened recently, I still feel Espy is likely to be scum, SS going nutso on CKD initially read to me as scummy, but I feel less now (though I still feel off about that slot, if either of those two are scum, it's SS). Jack is still being more useless than Vezo (and that's saying something, sorry Vezo).

Right now I'd be happy with a Vezo lynch or an Espy lynch.

[vollkan]

No. no.
Oh. I mean I don't give reads on all the players day 1.
I give reads on some players.

Then WHY do you think HD is scum?

And explain the Espy/SS thing from way back that you totally ignored.

No. English is not my first language

Fine. But that's no excuse for only selectively responding to certain points. I notice is this is about the first question you've actually answered.

Sorry, but you're not the best player around, but when I have played against you, you've not been this poor with your day 1 posting (I hate meta generally, but you're not normally making ridiculous posts like the switch to Espy from SS).

Are you agreeing with my inconsistency point here, but just expressing it another way?

[PranaDevil]

Pretty much Vollkan, I've never found Vezo to be the strongest player, but I don't ever recall seeing him move his vote with such piss poor reasoning as that before.

[CooLDoG]

cooldog needs to die

why? Thats all I have to say to that .

Screw it, I'm gonna take it.

I have reads.
I just don't post them day 1.

Noted.

Horrordude is scum guys.

I'm sorry, I thought you didn't post your reads on D1?

This does not invalidated his reads or reasons

He is not doing anything here guys.

And what have YOU done lately?

This does not invalidated his reasons on you. Just because he doesn't post much doesn't mean his reasons are invalid. Your point is a logical fallacy, which I am too lazy to get my ass of this chair and look up its name in my logic book. However, if you do nothing, you are still doing nothing independently from what other people are doing.

Jut setup speculating in hope of fishing.

I like fishing! What are we going for? Bass or Salmon? Seriously though, how am I fishing?

I don't see you as fishing actually, however I would like an explanation, some quotes plz Vozo...

I'm gonna see if I can look at your meta really quickly before I decide if you're a VI or not, though.

That boarders on omgus as well as (sorta) this next post:

...Huh? Does someone else wanna cover that post or should I?

I don't like the tone of that above post. I want to let ESP post his post before I fully make up my mind on weather or not to vote for you. I have a little bit (lets say a big) gut-tell on you. As Well as other reasons, which I think, I have posted/commented.

[curiouskarmadog]

Ok, updating, and typing as I go, I am sorry if this turns into a wall of text, if it starts to look like I giant post, I will break them up.
Starting at the top of page 13.

@ Demon, and who ever else feels so inclined to answer (the more the merrier, would like opinions and stances on this question)..also interested in seeing who blatantly ignores this post.

I already asked you the question earlier which one of you do you prefer we lynch, to which you replied with an OMGUS.

What's the rationale behind this post? I don't see the scum motivation for stifling your claim. Also, I didn't vote for no reason; one of you neighbors has to die. We can hash out the night action for the survivor once we decide.

Is singersigner the neighbor you want to lynch?

I am not sure what post you are talking (“this post”)about 208 or 209. I assume you are talking about my vote on you. Yes you did vote for no reason. In your view, why does one of the neighbors “have to die” and why does it have to be the any particular pair?

if you knew you would understand....my neighbor and I are vig-like..not vigs....I dont need to tell you if we are two shot, unlimited shot, etc...i dont need to tell you any other part of the mechanic, which is in the name...so no, it is not pro-town...so back the fuck off....if you think i am scummy for not telling you..vote me or move on.

at this point, you are looking scummy for role fishing...keep in mind, i didnt have to tell you jack.

UNVOTE: VOTE: curiouskarmadog
Do you propose we lynch you or totallynotmafia?

Where is the reason in that post/vote….there isn’t…so don’t act there was with this post.

And you are asking me if SS is the neighbor I want to lynch…at the time of this post, where the fuck was my vote?

How can vollkan and curiouskarmadog both have "Best Mafia Performance"?

how many people are in your mafia?

unvote P
vote singersinger

You tried to force a lynch on CKD. By using false information.

what were those reasons again? (edit: vollkan asks the same question later)

@CKD: I know you have already said it many times... I just want you to answer it once more. Why the claim so early?

I had to claim Day 1, you disagree, why or why not?

Spam.
Espy is scum. DIE.

unvote vote espy

why is he scum? I thought SS was scum, and vollkan asked you a question, why did you ignore it?

hoping to update in the next 48

I don't really have much for you right now other than this post.
UNVOTE: VOTE: curiouskarmadog

why the vote? I assume because you thought I was lurking?..did you check any of my other current games to see if that was true?

Vezok, replace out. You are seriously incapable of playing this game. I can tolerate inexperience, because people can improve, but you are going nowhere in terms of your play. This game requiers reasoning and analysis; you have neither. Leave.

QFT, I did a quick meta of him and in a current game...he just plays like this...it is a waste..the only scum game I found for him however, he was much more involved. I have a feeling he has some vanilla role and he is just bored.

[*]I'm voting CKD for the reasons I previously voted him; I only voted Stef for pressure.
[*]

I didnt see the reasons the first time, please give me some bullets points.

Pretty much Vollkan, I've never found Vezo to be the strongest player, but I don't ever recall seeing him move his vote with such piss poor reasoning as that before.

what game have you guys played together?..link please. because I looked over his games, curious which one you were in with him.

[vollkan]

He is not doing anything here guys.

And what have YOU done lately?

This does not invalidated his reasons on you. Just because he doesn't post much doesn't mean his reasons are invalid. Your point is a logical fallacy, which I am too lazy to get my ass of this chair and look up its name in my logic book. However, if you do nothing, you are still doing nothing independently from what other people are doing.

You're accusing HD of tu quoque (The fallacy where: A makes criticism of X. A is also guilty of X.Therefore, X is not scummy)

However, mafia is one situation where tu quoque is not actually as fallacious as it normally is. Let me explain why:

In order for a player to treat X as a scumtell, they have to, at the very least, think that

X is more likely to come from scum than town

. Vezok attached HD for not posting content. That means that Vezok is implicitly saying "I think not posting content is more likely to come from scum than town". However, Vezok himself is not posting content. Which means, in order for Vezok to be logically consistent (and thus be reasoning validly), one of the following must be the case:
a) Vezok is scum (eg. it is consistent for scum-Vezok to see something as scummy if he is doing it);
b) Vezok has a special reason as to why it is not scummy for Vezok individually (eg. a meta point that Vezok tends posts no content as town/no matter what his alignment); or
c) Vezok has a special reason as to why it is scummy for HD individually (eg. a meta point that HD tends to post no content as scum).

Vezok seems more newb than scum, so we can't treat a) as true. And I find it very hard to believe that Vezok even knows how to meta, let alone actually has something that could satisfy b) and c).

(Note: b) is actually probably true, which is Vezok's uselessness isn't a scumtell - however, in terms of analysing the validity of

his own reasons

it is irrelevant, because Vezok hasn't actually appealed to his own incompetence)

I'm gonna see if I can look at your meta really quickly before I decide if you're a VI or not, though.

That boarders on omgus as well as (sorta) this next post:

First, a Community Service Announcement. Please see this recent MD post by me which explains why there is no such thing as OMGUS.

Second, how on earth does it border on "OMGUS"? He isn't attacking Vezok - he is saying that he wants to investigate Vezok's meta before deciding if he is a VI or not. Isn't that exactly what a townie should do in this situation?

And for using a boiler-plate scumtell without basis (not that there is ever a 'basis' for accusing someone of "OMGUS" ) :

CD+1

I don't like the tone of that above post.

I don't like the pixellation of your avatar.

Since at this stage, tone seems as relevant to HD's alignment as avatar pixellation seems to yours, why is his tone relevant?

[PranaDevil]

Pretty much Vollkan, I've never found Vezo to be the strongest player, but I don't ever recall seeing him move his vote with such piss poor reasoning as that before.

what game have you guys played together?..link please. because I looked over his games, curious which one you were in with him.

Both are ongoing still, so can't actually discuss the games I'm afraid.