Open 321: Kc's FIRE and ICE: Game over.

[Klazam]

Hm. Just realized that half of the players alive right now is scum. Let me run through some scenarios:

S1)
D3: 5-2-2, Lynch scum, 5-2-1
N3: Assuming worst case scenario- 3-2-1
D4: Cannot lynch the 1-man scumgroup- 3-1-1
N4: Assuming worst case scenario- 1-1-1
D5: Prisoner's dilemma

S2)
D3: 5-2-2, Lynch town, 4-2-2
N3: Assuming worst case scenario- 2-2-2
D4: Town loss is assured, Prisoner's dilemma of a kind.

S3)
D3: 5-2-2, Lynch scum, 5-2-1
N3: Assuming worst case scenario- 3-2-1
D4: lynch the 1-man scumgroup- 3-2
N4: Town loses

Meh. We really need to lynch scum, on this day, and we need to get lucky with a crosskill/ doc save.

We're doomed.

If I had to choose right now, my townlist is Myself, DX, cirno, VE. Anybody outside that list probably is scum.

Mod- votecount?

After the mod shows a votecount, I'll hop on the largest bandwagon that isnt on my townlist.

[Klazam]

also,

MOD- can you clarify one thing- could fire mafia kill ice mafia, and vice-versa?

If so, that will give us a bit of hope, at least.

[Reab]

@Reab

That post makes zero sense and here is why. You gave two reasons for voting VE in that post:

1."I think David Xanathos maybe has figured out something he said before the night ended about VE."
The first, because you

think

David

might

have figured out

something

about VE after VE had spent his last few posts calling him an idiot. Please explain how it makes sense to cast a vote based on David's findings before he even explains them?

2."What i disliked was the way [VE] pushed CSLs lynch so hard until the very end to then back off, making DX actually vote for her."
Please explain how and show where it is exactly that VE backed off of CSL. How exactly is trying to convince David that CSL is not confirmed town 'backing off'?

Basically, the first reason makes makes absolutely no sense and the second reason is blatantly false.

VOTE: Reab

with backing off i meant to say that VE pushed the hammer all the time, and then suddenly stopped pushing it, to lure one of the remaining people that werent voting for CSL into hammering. Iso his posts and you will understand what i mean.

Yes, i am very eager to hear what DX has figured out about VE. This combined with the hammer pushing, aswell as the general emotional gameplay of VE tended my vote to be on him.

Also,
>killerjester hasn't been reading the thread
My disappointment is endless.

[killerjester]

I think we should all release our townlists and then vote the person that is on none of them.

For instance, does anyone think Krazy is town?

[Reab]

Sorry i crapped that up. Well my part is this:

with backing off i meant to say that VE pushed the hammer all the time, and then suddenly stopped pushing it, to lure one of the remaining people that werent voting for CSL into hammering. Iso his posts and you will understand what i mean.

Yes, i am very eager to hear what DX has figured out about VE. This combined with the hammer pushing, aswell as the general emotional gameplay of VE tended my vote to be on him.

[Reab]

My townlist is Klazam, DX, smarg and cirno.

Having a neutral mind about krazy.

[killerjester]

My townlist is DX, smarg, Reab, then I'm caught between VE and Klazam. But I'm fairly certain Krazy, Cirno, and TF are all scum.

[Reab]

kj, what makes u think that cirno is mafia? could you link the posts that are making him suspicious so i can reread it, because isoing him gave me nothing, hence i cant put him on scumlist.

[killerjester]

He's had multiple back-and-forth arguments with gbevilchaos and Krazy (gb's replacement). Most recently, he's stated something to the extent of, "I'm ignoring Krazy now, not going to read his posts anymore."

I think it's very possible they are scumbuddies and have been distancing each other all game. A look through the votecount shows they have none voted for each other once, and I find this peculiar given how much they have been arguing with each other. Also, they have never been on the same wagon. Ever. Not during a single votecount. And it's Day 3. So while Cirno doesn't have many good examples of him being individually scummy, I see him as the only option for being Krazy's partner. Their interactions together have been far too scummy.

Back and forth early on D1
:IagreewithEmpking: here
Another back-and-forth, this time with Krazy
"I've stopped reading Krazy's posts

[Krazy]

I think we should all release our townlists and then vote the person that is on none of them.

My townlist is DX, smarg, Reab,

then I'm caught between VE and Klazam

.

In the context of your previous post, that is the scummiest townlist I've ever seen.

[killerjester]

In the context of this game you are the scummiest player I've ever seen.

[VisceraEyes]

Yeah, the post about me from Reab makes zero sense, but judging from his d1 shenannies, it falls in line my placing him squarely in the 'newb' category. I'm not convinced he's scum as yet, but I DON'T like how he OPENS the post stating that he's suspicious of someone who's got a wagon going on them already, yet votes for me...based on nonsense.

Watching Reab VERY closely, but I'm ISO'ing a couple of people right now and I'll be back with my thoughts

At present (before rereading) my townlist is DX, KJ, and Krazy. Everyone I didn't mention I'm either suspicious of or haven't felt warm and fuzzy about from the beginning of the game. I'm also inclined to believe at this point that Klazam is town, in spite of decrying his actions regarding Whiskers d1...his behavior hasn't been scummy since then, and while he never really answered my suspicions (he went V/LA, IIRC,) his actions so far today have rang town to me.

[killerjester]

Why is Krazy town?

[VisceraEyes]

Spoiler: Krazy's Greatest Hits

I can understand that people vote me, I'm not being very active, I'm on vacation and usually away from home and with very limited internet access, and that is making me difficult to stay active in this game. The game is also moving extremely slowly and with a lot of replacements, so it's difficult to catch on on the action, since so little is happening (a bit confusing, but I think you can understand).

Actually, I don't really understand. The pace of the game should make it easier to stay up to date on the action or the lack thereof, scumplaining about your own lurkiness and deflecting blame doesn't really help you.

In my experience

(and this game confirms it) lurkers usually get caught

and voted.

Hmm. Despite how ridiculous the italicized comment is, your argument even as you seemed to intend it doesn't actually make you any less scummy. A) Even if you did believe lurking is not optimal play now, that does not mean you thought so for the last few weeks when it was a lot easier with the wagons on VE and after that bouncing around some other people, B) There's no reason to think you were playing optimally even if you did think that, C) You're wrong either way, lurking works a lot of the time, and D) this is another post where you scumplain about the wagon on you, of which your last posts seem to be 3(scumplaining):1(accusing Reab). Take a page out of VE's playbook here?

God, I'd forgotten how slow this game is moving -.-

Nice choice to complain about it instead of saying anything interesting.


Wagon on Toon Fighter is good wagon, although my current inclination is that the wagon on VE is still a better wagon.

No, said "VT" because i didnt want to ask what a VT is, because you would have misinterpreted it :/ NEED TO GO!

That is a totally unsatisfactory answer to your question, Klazam, (and your question itself is one I might have asked myself). Not sure why you accept this answer.

On the other hand though, I had a townread on MediocreJPop, which either means MediocreJPop was much better at appearing town than either the first person in that slot or the current one, I'm still inclined to say that Ceab is more likely to be derping town than scumslipping.

But this thing where Reab doesn't even ask whether he's claiming "voteless townie" or "vengeful townie" is extremely alarming, in more than just a scum-slip kind of way. Even if telling the truth, that means Reab is not asking vital questions that interfere with his capacity to understand what people are saying in the game. Honestly, not asking whether it's Voteless Townie or Vengeful Townie because he's afraid it will be "misinterpreted" might actually be scummier than the apparent slip.

Gonna have to process this one a bit more.

After a readthrough of the thread, I'm absolutely and unequivocally NOT voting for Reab.

Discuss.

I think Empking deserves a closer look guys. His nonsense of posting no more than one line or two is doing a good job of keeping us guessing as to his reasons for his suspicions, and that's pretty much all it's doing. Agree with him or not, I don't like the way he's presenting it. It feels scummy.

You never explained why you are "absolutely and unequivocally NOT voting for Reab" but now you're saying Empking is scum for doing almost exactly what you did in regard to Reab.

And I agree that he could have scumhunted between his v/las.

I did not say that, quite the opposite, actually. In any case, did you seriously just ask me to explain why I find his post insincere? I suppose that would be due to a lack of sincerity. Trying awfully hard to poison the well here, aren't you?

As for you, 1) do you actually think TF is town? 2) why did you choose David over Klazam, if both seem to be attacking TF for scummy reasons fypov?

How exactly was my vote on VE opportunistic? That makes no sense to me.

For the other two, I can sort of see where kj is coming from, but his accusations remain unfounded. Before I made the vote on Reab, the game was seriously stalling, almost entirely because the wagons were so spread out so that no meaningful pressure could be applied to any player and votes themselves began to have no meaning. VE pretty much just ignored my push on him, and the lack of town support on him suggested it was time to look for one of the other three scum. CSL can choose to say that it's scummy to join a growing wagon but that doesn't make it true; sitting on a dead wagon can be just an excuse not to contribute to the rest of the game and pushes the game into a stall. Although VE was my top scum candidate at that point, it made more sense to get some momentum into the game, and so I voted for Reab. But, I wasn't really satisfied with that vote, for reasons I have already explained. When Whiskers appeared to be rolefishing in a way I took to be scummy, I had no problem moving to a better wagon. The weak vote there is the one on Reab, and I perhaps can see why including it as part of a pattern can make my votes look suspicious.

Basically, I can see how kj, as town, would get that impression, but it is the wrong one to make. I never shared the certainty that others expressed that kj or his predecessor PI were scum, and of the three people on my wagon, he's the one I see as most likely to be town. I was leaning scum on warriormode, and CSL I am having a hard time reading, but mostly think that the wagon on me is misdirected townies (due to an incorrect meta read of the situation and ignoring the game state at time of my votes) following desperate scum in TF.

TF's strategy of OMGUSing and then going into lurk mode until the wagon is off him seems to be working.

TF is scum, and I think there's two or three scum between VE (not going to repeat this), Cirno (because of his trying to derail the TF wagon today), CSL (because of warriormode), and Klazam (but apparently I'm the only one that thought ConfidAnon was scummy). That's five players and there's four scum, but I will have to figure out which one is town later as I would much rather lynch TF today than any of the others. Reab I'm still torn on but I've come to regret my vote on yesterday, and am now starting to lean likely town now that the "VT" thing seems like a legitimate mistake. Everyone else is town.

What are you looking for here? A bunch of chainsaws, or an opportunity to accuse me of setting up mislynches? I don't see a point in really speculating on that since I don't really see a good reason to restrict any of them from being partners with any of the others. Scum plays as scum, with the complete lack of luster in most of these wagons, I wouldn't be surprised if they spent half of every day throwing miniature busses at each other. There's really nothing but WIFOM in that route.

You're at this point accusing of moving around wagons too much, or overextending myself, while asking me to form connections that are quite frankly overextensions. You're basically saying, "please do something scummy so I can accuse you of being scummy." In this regard I must ask you to stop tunneling.

Also, you seem to have forgotten the rest of my post. What about the difference between L-3 and the L-1 that you said? One of the reasons to attack me was gone, and you just skipped it.

I don't even know what to say about the L-3/L-1 thing, I was posting from my phone, thought I remembered the vote progression but apparently I had forgotten that you were the L-3 vote. So I derped. What do you want to make of it?

I didn't vote you because you hopped on my wagon, I voted a player that I thought was suspicious after I read Empking's list and your ISO. I just mentioned the part about you hopping my wagon because I thought (and think) it was opportunistic and unjustified, NOT because the wagon was on ME. Also, your "quote" was very selective, you should quote the whole post to let the rest of the players decide better whether to vote me or not. [My vote on you] was as much of an OMGUSing as was CSL's (that means, no OMGUS) (and I believe [CSL's vote] was a vote out of desperation, and I just called you on that to see what your response would be). Also,

If you think my vote on you was OMGUS, you have to believe CSL's vote was OMGUS as well.

Also, after I voted you, you came back at me much stronger. Isn't that some sort of OMGUS as well? Reaffirming your vote on me after I voted you?

No, you omgusing me and me recognizing this for what is does not in turn also become an omgus.

There is a fine distinction between your vote for me and CSL's vote for you.

In CSL's case, CSL is simply trying to get a lynch on someone other than himself. This is desperate, but not inherently scummy, even if it is pretty weak town play.

Your vote for me, on the other hand, seemed not so much to get a lynch on someone other than yourself so much as it was to make the wagon on you look unappealing. In essence, it seemed like the primary purpose of it was to avoid letting a wagon on you develop. This strikes me as fundamentally scummy, and in essence, scummier than CSL's vote of desperation.

He's A) Not afraid to give his opinions. B) Unapologetic in his suspicions, and C) VERY logical. This is a trifecta of townitude. He's on my townlist. This was YOUR idea my guy. The only thing I don't like about his posting style is his certainty in his reads. Generally this is a good thing, but he's obviously (to me) mistaken at least where I'm concerned, so he could be mistaken in his other reads. But don't tell him that, or you're probably scum.

[Toon Fighter]

Hey. I still defend that kj, Krazy, or VE are prob mafia. I don't have much time now, prob tomorrow will make better post. Will analyse D2 and D3 and try and find scum there. For now, though, I will not vote.

[Kcdaspot]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 5

killerjester

- 2 - David Xanthos, smargaret - (L-3)

Krazy

- 1 - killerjester - (L-4)

Reab

- 1 - Cirno - (L-4)

smargaret

- 1 - Klazam - (L-4)

Toon Fighter

- 1 - Krazy - (L-4)

ViscaraEyes

- 1 - Reab - (L-4)

Players not voting: Toon Fighter, ViscaraEyes

Deadline is September 30th 2011 at 8 pm Central time.

(expired on 2011-09-30 20:00:00)

If Fire mafia kills Ice mafia and there is no protection the Ice mafia will die, and vice versa.

[killerjester]

That doesn't look good for me. Klazam, any chance my short case convinced you to take cirno off your townlist and put me on instead?

[smargaret]

That's quite a reaction for two votes, KJ. And an awfully scummy one, at that. On the other hand, I think you're probably right about Cirno/Krazy being scum - I just think you're on the other scumteam.

I don't really see the point in announcing a townlist at this point of the game. It isn't like confirming people as town because it's all based on hypothesis, but what it does do is give more information to scum (they know who the town considers to be town, and will kill from that list - but unlike a conftown list, the doc's odds of protecting right are lower because there are scum in the set of all posted townlists).

[smargaret]

Spoiler: Krazy's Greatest Hits

I can understand that people vote me, I'm not being very active, I'm on vacation and usually away from home and with very limited internet access, and that is making me difficult to stay active in this game. The game is also moving extremely slowly and with a lot of replacements, so it's difficult to catch on on the action, since so little is happening (a bit confusing, but I think you can understand).

Actually, I don't really understand. The pace of the game should make it easier to stay up to date on the action or the lack thereof, scumplaining about your own lurkiness and deflecting blame doesn't really help you.

In my experience

(and this game confirms it) lurkers usually get caught

and voted.

Hmm. Despite how ridiculous the italicized comment is, your argument even as you seemed to intend it doesn't actually make you any less scummy. A) Even if you did believe lurking is not optimal play now, that does not mean you thought so for the last few weeks when it was a lot easier with the wagons on VE and after that bouncing around some other people, B) There's no reason to think you were playing optimally even if you did think that, C) You're wrong either way, lurking works a lot of the time, and D) this is another post where you scumplain about the wagon on you, of which your last posts seem to be 3(scumplaining):1(accusing Reab). Take a page out of VE's playbook here?

God, I'd forgotten how slow this game is moving -.-

Nice choice to complain about it instead of saying anything interesting.


Wagon on Toon Fighter is good wagon, although my current inclination is that the wagon on VE is still a better wagon.

No, said "VT" because i didnt want to ask what a VT is, because you would have misinterpreted it :/ NEED TO GO!

That is a totally unsatisfactory answer to your question, Klazam, (and your question itself is one I might have asked myself). Not sure why you accept this answer.

On the other hand though, I had a townread on MediocreJPop, which either means MediocreJPop was much better at appearing town than either the first person in that slot or the current one, I'm still inclined to say that Ceab is more likely to be derping town than scumslipping.

But this thing where Reab doesn't even ask whether he's claiming "voteless townie" or "vengeful townie" is extremely alarming, in more than just a scum-slip kind of way. Even if telling the truth, that means Reab is not asking vital questions that interfere with his capacity to understand what people are saying in the game. Honestly, not asking whether it's Voteless Townie or Vengeful Townie because he's afraid it will be "misinterpreted" might actually be scummier than the apparent slip.

Gonna have to process this one a bit more.

After a readthrough of the thread, I'm absolutely and unequivocally NOT voting for Reab.

Discuss.

I think Empking deserves a closer look guys. His nonsense of posting no more than one line or two is doing a good job of keeping us guessing as to his reasons for his suspicions, and that's pretty much all it's doing. Agree with him or not, I don't like the way he's presenting it. It feels scummy.

You never explained why you are "absolutely and unequivocally NOT voting for Reab" but now you're saying Empking is scum for doing almost exactly what you did in regard to Reab.

And I agree that he could have scumhunted between his v/las.

I did not say that, quite the opposite, actually. In any case, did you seriously just ask me to explain why I find his post insincere? I suppose that would be due to a lack of sincerity. Trying awfully hard to poison the well here, aren't you?

As for you, 1) do you actually think TF is town? 2) why did you choose David over Klazam, if both seem to be attacking TF for scummy reasons fypov?

How exactly was my vote on VE opportunistic? That makes no sense to me.

For the other two, I can sort of see where kj is coming from, but his accusations remain unfounded. Before I made the vote on Reab, the game was seriously stalling, almost entirely because the wagons were so spread out so that no meaningful pressure could be applied to any player and votes themselves began to have no meaning. VE pretty much just ignored my push on him, and the lack of town support on him suggested it was time to look for one of the other three scum. CSL can choose to say that it's scummy to join a growing wagon but that doesn't make it true; sitting on a dead wagon can be just an excuse not to contribute to the rest of the game and pushes the game into a stall. Although VE was my top scum candidate at that point, it made more sense to get some momentum into the game, and so I voted for Reab. But, I wasn't really satisfied with that vote, for reasons I have already explained. When Whiskers appeared to be rolefishing in a way I took to be scummy, I had no problem moving to a better wagon. The weak vote there is the one on Reab, and I perhaps can see why including it as part of a pattern can make my votes look suspicious.

Basically, I can see how kj, as town, would get that impression, but it is the wrong one to make. I never shared the certainty that others expressed that kj or his predecessor PI were scum, and of the three people on my wagon, he's the one I see as most likely to be town. I was leaning scum on warriormode, and CSL I am having a hard time reading, but mostly think that the wagon on me is misdirected townies (due to an incorrect meta read of the situation and ignoring the game state at time of my votes) following desperate scum in TF.

TF's strategy of OMGUSing and then going into lurk mode until the wagon is off him seems to be working.

TF is scum, and I think there's two or three scum between VE (not going to repeat this), Cirno (because of his trying to derail the TF wagon today), CSL (because of warriormode), and Klazam (but apparently I'm the only one that thought ConfidAnon was scummy). That's five players and there's four scum, but I will have to figure out which one is town later as I would much rather lynch TF today than any of the others. Reab I'm still torn on but I've come to regret my vote on yesterday, and am now starting to lean likely town now that the "VT" thing seems like a legitimate mistake. Everyone else is town.

What are you looking for here? A bunch of chainsaws, or an opportunity to accuse me of setting up mislynches? I don't see a point in really speculating on that since I don't really see a good reason to restrict any of them from being partners with any of the others. Scum plays as scum, with the complete lack of luster in most of these wagons, I wouldn't be surprised if they spent half of every day throwing miniature busses at each other. There's really nothing but WIFOM in that route.

You're at this point accusing of moving around wagons too much, or overextending myself, while asking me to form connections that are quite frankly overextensions. You're basically saying, "please do something scummy so I can accuse you of being scummy." In this regard I must ask you to stop tunneling.

Also, you seem to have forgotten the rest of my post. What about the difference between L-3 and the L-1 that you said? One of the reasons to attack me was gone, and you just skipped it.

I don't even know what to say about the L-3/L-1 thing, I was posting from my phone, thought I remembered the vote progression but apparently I had forgotten that you were the L-3 vote. So I derped. What do you want to make of it?

I didn't vote you because you hopped on my wagon, I voted a player that I thought was suspicious after I read Empking's list and your ISO. I just mentioned the part about you hopping my wagon because I thought (and think) it was opportunistic and unjustified, NOT because the wagon was on ME. Also, your "quote" was very selective, you should quote the whole post to let the rest of the players decide better whether to vote me or not. [My vote on you] was as much of an OMGUSing as was CSL's (that means, no OMGUS) (and I believe [CSL's vote] was a vote out of desperation, and I just called you on that to see what your response would be). Also,

If you think my vote on you was OMGUS, you have to believe CSL's vote was OMGUS as well.

Also, after I voted you, you came back at me much stronger. Isn't that some sort of OMGUS as well? Reaffirming your vote on me after I voted you?

No, you omgusing me and me recognizing this for what is does not in turn also become an omgus.

There is a fine distinction between your vote for me and CSL's vote for you.

In CSL's case, CSL is simply trying to get a lynch on someone other than himself. This is desperate, but not inherently scummy, even if it is pretty weak town play.

Your vote for me, on the other hand, seemed not so much to get a lynch on someone other than yourself so much as it was to make the wagon on you look unappealing. In essence, it seemed like the primary purpose of it was to avoid letting a wagon on you develop. This strikes me as fundamentally scummy, and in essence, scummier than CSL's vote of desperation.

He's A) Not afraid to give his opinions. B) Unapologetic in his suspicions, and C) VERY logical. This is a trifecta of townitude. He's on my townlist. This was YOUR idea my guy. The only thing I don't like about his posting style is his certainty in his reads. Generally this is a good thing, but he's obviously (to me) mistaken at least where I'm concerned, so he could be mistaken in his other reads. But don't tell him that, or you're probably scum.

The problem with this is that there are two scumteams. He could just be fire mafia looking for ice, or vice versa. Your trifecta of towniness consists of signs of scumhunting, and in this game, scum need to scumhunt too.

[killerjester]

I'm a little worried because I have two townreads voting for me. That means there are 4 scum out there who, I'm sure, would just looooooove to run my bandwagon up and hammer it. Considering that I expect Klazam to vote me to L-2 I'd say I'm rightfully worried.

I don't see how posting townlists hurt the docs odds of protecting right over not posting townlists.

[Klazam]

I'm not certain why you're so scared that youre not on my townlist.

You will never make it on there, due to the actions of your predecessors.

[smargaret]

Speaking of Klazam, why do you expect him to vote you to L-2?

[killerjester]

Mod- votecount?

After the mod shows a votecount, I'll hop on the largest bandwagon that isnt on my townlist.

That.

[David Xanatos]

UNVOTE:
For now at least.

[Klazam]

I LOVE THE DOUBLE ISO FEATURE-WHO DO I HAVE TO THANK FOR THAT?

that said- I read the ISO of both Cirno and Krazy/gbevil- I never saw anything from cirno indicating that cirno was suspicious of gb/Krazy. Just disagreements over opinion. Krazy's posting feels amazingly town to me, for some reason. So I'm adding krazy to my town list. That means everyone else is scum.

Perfectly happy to do this:

VOTE KILLERJESTER