The StarCraft II thread

[Otolia]

Otolia is quite the

redacted, don't want to get banned

.

Nah, just I disclosed things I shouldn't have.

Otolia, you have no clue about anything when it comes to how this industry works. Just saying.

Maybe, but from where I stand it doesn't please me. And I have the rights to be vocal about it. It is also a reason I choose a pure science university instead of an engineering school. On a side note, the relation to money in France is as bad (maybe even worse) as the relation to sex in the US.

First, while mouz is a fine team, and I remember them from the WC3 days, CoL is a major market international team. Some people don't feel the CoL/MVP deal is a big deal, but it is. Not to mention CoL is in more games than just SC2 and that brings stability. mouz just doesn't have that.

mouz have players in CS, CSS, PES, Fifa, SC2 and one irrelevant game (lol) and better SC2 players
coL have HoN, LoL (no comment), SC2, Halo ( ) and two irrelevant game.

What coL brings is money and exposure on the NA scene, a scene that has been only this year picking up with PC eSports. NA fans are kinda ignorant about EU up and coming players (like biGs, sYz, Kalin etc) coL/MVP is indeed a huge step in the right direction for coL as was the pickup of Stephano but mouz still has more recognition on the EU scene and let's be honest, the NA scene is quite apathetic and don't produce good players (coL academy is great though)

Now I won't say I'm unhappy about this move. I just wished it would have been done differently considering [M] needs more International exposure right now, but that's their fault. And no they haven't stated anything about wanting to focus on France. That's a misunderstanding due to the absence of a dedicated english website. Something I am working on at that moment.

For the lulz

PS : Your name rings a bell but I abandonned the WC3 scene 4 years ago so I won't pretend I know you for sure.

[AGar]

Otolia, you have no clue about anything when it comes to how this industry works. Just saying.

Maybe, but from where I stand it doesn't please me. And I have the rights to be vocal about it. It is also a reason I choose a pure science university instead of an engineering school. On a side note, the relation to money in France is as bad (maybe even worse) as the relation to sex in the US.

The fact of the matter is, coL provides better support globally as opposed to [M] and by waiting for an announcement to be prepared by [M] (who is likely to be apathetic themselves in regards to the situation since they are losing a player), they simply force themselves to delay getting the most out of their player. {Side-note: MLG provides more than just prize pool. It is a major sponsorship boost to say that your players will potentially be viewed in their uniforms by hundreds of thousands of people spanning the globe.}

First, while mouz is a fine team, and I remember them from the WC3 days, CoL is a major market international team. Some people don't feel the CoL/MVP deal is a big deal, but it is. Not to mention CoL is in more games than just SC2 and that brings stability. mouz just doesn't have that.

mouz have players in CS, CSS, PES, Fifa, SC2 and one irrelevant game (lol) and better SC2 players
coL have HoN, LoL (no comment), SC2, Halo ( ) and two irrelevant game.

Col has a partnership with MVP, has been around for 8+ years, has major sponsorship support in Creative & Qpad namely, has a dedicated staff in jlake (who at points was pretty much putting himself into bankruptcy in order to run his team iirc) and keeping their rosters in games like HoN, LoL (the bigger market game atm) and Halo (which is still a big deal in MLG) gives them the ability to KEEP sponsors on board.

Mouz is a good team, and has decent-ish support, but still seems to think this is Brood War with the minimal support their players seem to get.

[TheButtonmen]

Not really sure where the drama is.

A) Stephano was unsigned.
B) Stephano wanted to switch teams.
C) Millenniums team structure isn't very good and they aren't retaining any of their talent.
D) Millennium doesn't support its players or send them anywhere non-local / Complexity has a looong and impressive history in e-sports of backing its players.
E) Stephano already knows / practices with Col members (the former Root crew).
F) Col has Korean ties and access to not just practise partners but also a teamhouse which are vital if Stephano wants to become top tier.

[Otolia]

The fact of the matter is, coL provides better support globally as opposed to [M] and by waiting for an announcement to be prepared by [M] (who is likely to be apathetic themselves in regards to the situation since they are losing a player), they simply force themselves to delay getting the most out of their player.

A LoL news writer was forced to write a post a 4h58 in the morning. That's not correct. They didn't have the opportunity to do so and that's bad manners.

Not really sure where the drama is.

There is no drama, I was just pissed at the way coL handled the situation.

A) Stephano was unsigned.

He didn't have a proper contract because he was barely 18, and it is difficult to sign someone with our laws, but was sustained by [M] and another 'contract' was in talks.

B) Stephano wanted to switch teams.

No, that's the thing. In a [urlhttp://www.esportsfrance.com/actualites/26151/ ... objectifs-]recent interview[/url], he said that he viewed his year with [M]

C) Millenniums team structure isn't very good and they aren't retaining any of their talent.

Huk was invited in Korea and [M] couldn't afford to send him there. ToD wanted to stay in Korea and not play EU tournaments anymore. There are power struggle crippling Millenium's right now but more financial back-up was found

D) Millennium doesn't support its players or send them anywhere non-local / Complexity has a looong and impressive history in e-sports of backing its players.

Do you know the team ? [M] is sending his LoL team in Korea ....

E) Stephano already knows / practices with Col members (the former Root crew).

I'm not really sure, he played with Catz, but Catz plays with almost everyone, the latter certainly recommended him to his staff.

F) Col has Korean ties and access to not just practise partners but also a teamhouse which are vital if Stephano wants to become top tier.

He said, he doesn't want to play the GSL just train in Korea.

There is a lot of misunderstanding here. Or fallacies being spread, I don't know. One thing is sure, the offer of coL was huge (probably enough for him to live and send his money back to his parents) and Stephano wasn't really integrated in Millenium's team.

[Otolia]

The last word of this story is Stephano stays on Millenium.

That's why you don't force people's hands.

[Kinetic]

The last word of this story is Stephano stays on Millenium.

That's why you don't force people's hands.

No, that isn't the last word. If this ends up being true Stephano just broke a major contract with a major team. Hope [M] can support him for the rest of his life because this is pretty huge...

I think [M] in the eleventh hour had second thoughts and may have just made a shitstorm where there wasn't one, and convinced Stephano that he should feel the same way. Good job, in [M]'s haste, they just turned a relatively minor player transfer into an international incident, lol. Isn't that what you just claimed CoL did?

This really grates me though, it screams of isolationism and prejudice.

Now, let's stop bringing ourselves down, lets stop thinking that a french player has to play abroad to succeed.

Then...

He will travel across the world to win many tournaments, from Asia to the USA.

Which is it? Did [M] re-think its isolationist philosophy, or is one of these a throw-away line?

Edit: Also, point in fact, while CoL never said a single bad thing about [M], I love how [M] decided to basically accuse CoL of everything under the sun in their Press Release. Especially when players are saying the only reasons Steph resigned was because of that "money" concept you abhor.

[Otolia]

The press release was in french, I did some part of the translation. It sounds very anti-americanistic (and it is) but it was intended to french fans and it plays on that. Not to be translated. I am as disgusted by the way Millenium handled the shit though. I am so pissed right now too. It will take months for M to get back into TL and be accepted. I wanted to nail a job with them to promote them with the english community. Now it's gonna be impossible ... Dumbasses ><

Concerning your two comments, it makes sense because they want to keep the huge roots in France with their webtv which is starting to kick in and send people to compete abroad. And if you never went to France you can't understand the enormous undermining complex that cripples people here. That's not a prejudice.

On the other hand, coL is threatening people and that isn't the right way to do things either.

[Kinetic]

The press release was in french, I did some part of the translation. It sounds very anti-americanistic (and it is) but it was intended to french fans and it plays on that. Not to be translated. I am as disgusted by the way Millenium handled the shit though. I am so pissed right now too. It will take months for M to get back into TL and be accepted. I wanted to nail a job with them to promote them with the english community. Now it's gonna be impossible ... Dumbasses ><

Concerning your two comments, it makes sense because they want to keep the huge roots in France with their webtv which is starting to kick in and send people to compete abroad. And if you never went to France you can't understand the enormous undermining complex that cripples people here. That's not a prejudice.

On the other hand, coL is threatening people and that isn't the right way to do things either.

While its true I've never been to France, I have heard many stories about how French companies cannot be competitive internationally because of their bureaucratic policies, and thus are cripplingly isolationist. But this is a circular argument (they are un-competitive because they are isolationist and they are isolationist because they are un-competitive). But those are larger issues that cannot be handled here. That is basically asking us to treat French teams/companies with kid gloves because their country can't get its shit together (economically). (Not saying France is all bad, but perhaps you'll agree they are hurting themselves with these views)

And they aren't threatening anyone. They're saying (quite rightly) "Hey! We had a contract... That isn't going away and we're going to see what we can do about that." This isn't about hurt feelings anymore. Once a contract is involved its a legal dispute. Threatening legal action is not a "threat", its more akin to exercising a right.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I wanted to nail a job with them to promote them with the english community.

Thanks for revealing the conflict of interest that only confirms the idiocy of your posting on this subject.

They're saying (quite rightly) "Hey! We had a contract... That isn't going away and we're going to see what we can do about that." This isn't about hurt feelings anymore. Once a contract is involved its a legal dispute. Threatening legal action is not a "threat", its more akin to exercising a right.

Also - this.

[Otolia]

I wanted to nail a job with them to promote them with the english community.

Thanks for revealing the conflict of interest that only confirms the idiocy of your posting on this subject.

At first I was just venting about the way coL did their press release. It got way worse as the day went by and I'm not responsible for that. But yeah, they were a conflict of interest, however you should pay attention to what you say. I'm not lying to anyone, I just expressed my point of view which was obviously biased but you didn't need to read that statement to know that.

They're saying (quite rightly) "Hey! We had a contract... That isn't going away and we're going to see what we can do about that." This isn't about hurt feelings anymore. Once a contract is involved its a legal dispute. Threatening legal action is not a "threat", its more akin to exercising a right.

Also - this.

I have heard with the manager of Millenium, the contract wasn't legally 'binding' AT ALL. There were a number of loopholes and it wasn't a working contract. It was almost illegal work. Also Stephano wasn't augmented by staying with Millenium but he would have been if he was going to coL. coL never contacted directly Millenium

[Kinetic]

I wanted to nail a job with them to promote them with the english community.

Thanks for revealing the conflict of interest that only confirms the idiocy of your posting on this subject.

At first I was just venting about the way coL did their press release. It got way worse as the day went by and I'm not responsible for that. But yeah, they were a conflict of interest, however you should pay attention to what you say. I'm not lying to anyone, I just expressed my point of view which was obviously biased but you didn't need to read that statement to know that.

They're saying (quite rightly) "Hey! We had a contract... That isn't going away and we're going to see what we can do about that." This isn't about hurt feelings anymore. Once a contract is involved its a legal dispute. Threatening legal action is not a "threat", its more akin to exercising a right.

Also - this.

I have heard with the manager of Millenium, the contract wasn't legally 'binding' AT ALL. There were a number of loopholes and it wasn't a working contract. It was almost illegal work. Also Stephano wasn't augmented by staying with Millenium but he would have been if he was going to coL. coL never contacted directly Millenium

As a law student, and knowing that Jason Bass (or was it Lake?) of CoL is a lawyer, just based on the little I've heard I sincerely doubt the credibility of [M] Manager saying it "wasn't a legally binding contract". Even IF that were the case under French Law, that is not necessarily the law that governs in this case. Even IF it does, this is still a horrible blow to eSports in general. I players don't live up to their commitments, what sponsor is going to want to sign on to pay them? (This is not to be taken as legal advice). Forgive me if I don't take the word of the [M] manager that has basically proven with this that he can't be trusted.

In business, generally it is inappropriate to directly contact a competitor in such a situation, especially during a bidding war. This can be seen as collusion and is illegal in most countries as a matter of law. Call that "disrespectful" but it is a protection for the employee in such a situation.

What do you mean "augmented" (playing too much DX:HR) in this context. Do you mean harmed?

[Otolia]

Then we will just agree to disagree. I trust LwL you trust coL. So be it. I don't think I am able to think straight now (I don't even think I did today ><) I won't comment on this anymore and should be spit upon if I do (won't change much :p)

augmented == paid more. Meaning he isn't staying for the money from his contract but for the benefits he will get with a formal french contract (including social protection and retirement pension)

On a more light-hearted note (because this is getting really depressing), I am psyched by the upcoming events : IPL, MLG Orlando, ESWC (I am going there !!!!!!), Blizzcon, IEM Gangzhou and NY. October is gonna be SO good.

[Kinetic]

Then we will just agree to disagree. I trust LwL you trust coL. So be it. I don't think I am able to think straight now (I don't even think I did today ><) I won't comment on this anymore and should be spit upon if I do (won't change much :p)

augmented == paid more. Meaning he isn't staying for the money from his contract but for the benefits he will get with a formal french contract (including social protection and retirement pension)

On a more light-hearted note (because this is getting really depressing), I am psyched by the upcoming events : IPL, MLG Orlando, ESWC (I am going there !!!!!!), Blizzcon, IEM Gangzhou and NY. October is gonna be SO good.

Its not a matter of trust, its a matter of a horribly biased manager who guilted a young player with a signed contract into breaking that contract. Say what you will about its enforceability, that is a question for the courts, not the forums, that isn't the issue here. The issue is that you are basically agreeing with the isolationist stance of both [M] and by extension anyone who supports them is spouting and basically spitting in the face of anything that is not that. This doesn't just effect CoL. NO TEAM WILL DEAL WITH STEPHANO AFTER THIS DAY. Period. He is damaged goods now. NO TEAM WILL DEAL WITH [M] AFTER THIS. They better be happy with France because that is literally all they will ever be able to do. Players from [M] will now be stigmatized by this internationally. This does nothing but hurt [M] and French players.

Whether CoL gets their "just reward" or successfully sues [M] is irrelevant.

The tournaments look great. I'll be at MLG Orlando, but..

Stephano won't be. That or anything else outside of France. O wait...

[AGar]

JLake was the lawyer I believe.

Also, Millenium is playing with fire here.

Col is one of the teams that will bash their face in with that legally binding contract, and yeah..

Stephano and Mill are fucked.

[AGar]

Kinetic since you're a law student, I'm going to throw this post your way to see if you may know the answer or not:

The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter.

Since you seem to be one of the very few here with a basic idea what they are talking about (sorry about the borderline insult, but wtf why does everyone feels he is qualified to talk legal when obviously 99% of the users here have never, ever studied law in the details required to comprehend the situation in questions?):

Do you know if there are any bilateral agreements between France and the US regarding the enforcement of employment contracts? Because, even though I agree with you on the principal matter, if such agreements exist, those could possibly overrule the fact that French courts would have to apply French Law. In other words, if a bilateral agreement states that France has to enforce certain (!) US-court-decisions, then it doesn't matter at all if the contract violates French employment Law. All that the French court was allowed to verify in this case would be if the US decision is indeed a valid one (not forged/etc.).

[Knight of Cydonia]

Someone please tell MKP that a marine/marauder ball just won't work any more in TvT...

[JDodge]

my guess would be that the jurisdiction for the contract is the jurisdiction of the employer

[Kinetic]

Kinetic since you're a law student, I'm going to throw this post your way to see if you may know the answer or not:

The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter.

Since you seem to be one of the very few here with a basic idea what they are talking about (sorry about the borderline insult, but wtf why does everyone feels he is qualified to talk legal when obviously 99% of the users here have never, ever studied law in the details required to comprehend the situation in questions?):

Do you know if there are any bilateral agreements between France and the US regarding the enforcement of employment contracts? Because, even though I agree with you on the principal matter, if such agreements exist, those could possibly overrule the fact that French courts would have to apply French Law. In other words, if a bilateral agreement states that France has to enforce certain (!) US-court-decisions, then it doesn't matter at all if the contract violates French employment Law. All that the French court was allowed to verify in this case would be if the US decision is indeed a valid one (not forged/etc.).

I'm not sure, but seeing as it is France and we're America I can't see why we wouldn't. We're both major UN members, allies, etc. But then again, it isn't something that politicians would pressure France about, so I can't say it will definitely be enforced even if.

my guess would be that the jurisdiction for the contract is the jurisdiction of the employer

The contract states that the Choice of Law is Texas, and I'm sure Texas has jurisdiction based on

Burger King

(Yes, that's a case for non-lawyers. Its actually very famous too.) I figure CoL has Steph/Mill dead to rights for breach and tortuous interference based on the theory that Steph was an independent contractor and Mill convinced Steph to breach. I don't see Mill coming to Texas to defend though, so at best they'll get a default judgment over anything they want.

The real question is if they'll get the full faith and credit from France and if France will assist in enforcing the judgment. Despite what Mill says, I have a feeling they're going to get reamed by this both from a PR standpoint and a financial one. This sort of willful misconduct is looked down upon by many courts.

Disclaimer: This is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer. Any reliance upon the information here is misplaced and I am not responsible if you decide act on any of the information here. This is an uneducated, non-legal opinion, without any pertinent knowledge other than the little that has been released by the parties. Any or all of this may be wrong, and you should consult a lawyer if legal advice is needed.

[Kinetic]

Really funny Reddit post

This guy is really witty.

[Otolia]

With knowing more about it, Stephano is entirely responsible for the situation, he kinda screwed up his negotiation by omitting details that were crucial. Both col and [M] PR were oriented to defend their interests in front of their public. [M] will pay a fine to coL and Stephano will stay on [M]. I supposed the fine is 10% of the salary for one year at most and 100$ at lowest.

Alex Garfield has played a HUGE role in this solving. And he should be praised for that. We all learned that kids make stupid mistakes when one show them money. And that doesn't mean our eSports is not serious because that happens in every sport. Also contract breaking happened some years ago in NHL with players going to Russia without any kind of monetary compensation.

Source : col PR

[Knight of Cydonia]

Just played in the worst organised SC2 tourney ever. Map selection veered between 2 vetoes each first map, loser picks for second game, to "what would be the funniest" to "hey, I haven't seen Scrap Station in a while".

[AGar]

lololol that sounds like a great time. what're you talking about?

[hasdgfas]

I just bought SC2 full edition.

[Otolia]

Congratulations on your first step towards a happier life.

[DeathRowKitty]

I just bought SC2 full edition.

Addd meeeeeeee (or tell us your name and character code >.>)