Open 337: Twin Trap (Game Over)


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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:15 pm

Post by pinkfloyd »

Thomas, Pinkfloyd, thoughts on Collyer/Neil debate?

Both putting pressure on each other and they have both responded well.... wouldn't be surprised if they were both town.

  • Votecount 1-4


    pinkfloyd
    - (1)
    Thomas

    Isa
    - (1)
    pinkfloyd

    Thomas
    - (1)
    BobbyDrakeIceman

    princesskdw
    - (1)
    Collyer

    bv310
    - (1)
    malpascp

    Neil1113
    - (1)
    bv310


    Not Voting:

    neil1113
    ,
    Isa
    ,
    princesskdw


    Notes

  • With
    9
    alive, it takes
    5
    to lynch
  • The deadline for Day 1 is Sunday October 9th, 12:00PM UTC
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:21 pm

Post by SigmaEXE003 »

Prodding Collyer...
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:34 pm

Post by Thomas »

In post 71, Isa wrote:Thomas, Pinkfloyd, thoughts on Collyer/Neil debate?
Well bv was making some weak accusations at Neil and called it "textbook scum play" then he never went on and explained why. The things bv pointed out look more like null tells than scum tells so no, not textbook scum play. As for the Collyer/Neil debate, I don't like Neil's attitude after Collyer pointed out the contradiction in Neil's posts whether it was a contradiction or not. I do think that Collyer is picking apart posts too much though.
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:02 pm

Post by Collyer »

In post 76, SigmaEXE003 wrote:
Prodding Collyer...


I've had a rough weekend, and went to the dentist this morning. I'll post something resembling a worthwhile post when the numbness resides. Sorry.
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:05 am

Post by Collyer »

In post 72, neil1113 wrote:A debate? It wasn't really much of a debate...


Is that why you have ignored my post? You're not making yourself look too good, you've gone awfully quiet since I started asking you questions. Perhaps that's a coincidence though.

I can see the point about the pedantic nature of my questions, however they're a place to start, and from them reads have been read.

In post 74, bv310 wrote:In the mean time, anyone have any direct questions for me?


Yeah, did you ever believe in your case on pink enough to see him lynched today?

Isa, all you've contributed to the game is some RVS meta on pink, and non committal posts (most of which are to encourage the other players to contribute more), perhaps to appear to be contributing. I presume Post 40 isn't serious?

In post 77, Thomas wrote: As for the Collyer/Neil debate, I don't like Neil's attitude after Collyer pointed out the contradiction in Neil's posts whether it was a contradiction or not. I do think that Collyer is picking apart posts too much though.


Thomas, you've contributed very little as well. Three of your votes are RVS votes, two are about pink's early claim, and this is the last; which I don't like. I might be picking apart too much, but I'm asking questions. The irony is that your taking your reads from the answers that I'm getting, or at least trying to get. What do you mean by Neil's attitude?
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:19 am

Post by Isa »

I've played games like these on another site (with Thomas. btw) where activity has been as low as in this game and I always try to up the pace by asking questions. No idea if I'd do the same as scum - in all my finished games online (6 of them), I've only been town.

I've already said that I believe you to be very touchy over details (though at this point in the game it's actually good) and that the Neil/bv debate isn't pleasing me. Neil sure brings up better points than bv though.

Post 40 was as serious as you can get during RVS - not very. I certainly didn't expect the wagon to result in a claim however, which was a very unneeded one if you ask me.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:17 pm

Post by SigmaEXE003 »

Replacing princesskdw...
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:53 pm

Post by Thomas »

In post 79, Collyer wrote:Thomas, you've contributed very little as well. Three of your votes are RVS votes, two are about pink's early claim, and this is the last; which I don't like. I might be picking apart too much, but I'm asking questions. The irony is that your taking your reads from the answers that I'm getting, or at least trying to get. What do you mean by Neil's attitude?
I haven't had as much time as I expected for this game but I was recently night killed in an ongoing game on another site so I hope that will give me more time for this game. The game is really slow at this time too because 2 people haven't posted in over a week and apparently people don't want to replace into a 4 page game. Asking questions is fine and I have no problem with that but picking apart posts too much is different. As for Neil's attitude, I was talking about this: "Oh my, that absolutely does appear to be a contradiction."
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:28 am

Post by pinkfloyd »

Is there a reason why the vote count went in my post?
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:14 am

Post by Isa »

Top post on every page.
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:19 am

Post by SigmaEXE003 »

And Cav replaces malpascp! Please welcome him to the game.




In post 83, pinkfloyd wrote:Is there a reason why the vote count went in my post?

In post 1, SigmaEXE003 wrote:Vote counts will be edited into the first post of each page. Other announcements and requested vote counts will receive their own post.
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:16 pm

Post by Cav »

Hi, looking forward to playing with you all.

Just read over the game; a lot of the debate seems to be coming out of problems with people's attitudes or semantics, as others have said. The Bv/Neil debate seems earnest if misguided; Bv's vote for Pink seemed overly serious, but Neils defence seems far too over protective. And no one seems to like each other, which is sad...

Isa’s play is interesting. It seemed to go pretty unnoticed that he was pushing for Pink’s lynch as much as Bv, despite his assurances that it was all in the spirit of RVS. His engagement with the Bv/Neil debate is quite measured; he never actually engages in the argument fully but he asserts Neils town-ness three times,
in no way do I consider what Neil said to be "textbook scum play”

Neil brings up some very solid points versus Bv and I don't see anything inherently scummy coming from him

Neil sure brings up better points than bv though.

Considering no other player has so clearly chosen a side, as it were, this stuck out to me.

Oh, and someone used the word shenaniganistic, which is now my word of the day

Also, UNVOTE: bv310
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:12 pm

Post by bv310 »

In post 79, Collyer wrote:
In post 74, bv310 wrote:In the mean time, anyone have any direct questions for me?


Yeah, did you ever believe in your case on pink enough to see him lynched today?
Absolutely not. It's page 4. If anything, I wanted to put enough pressure on him to try and get reactions from everyone else, then try and find scum that way. That's why I hated when Neil jumped in and white-knighted him, and then when I turned to Neil, his reaction read to me as really scummy.

Also, I've spoilered Neil's post to make this easier.
Spoiler: Neil's Post
In post 58, neil1113 wrote:Instead of quoting your whole thing and making a wall, I sifted through the useless stuff and brought out your actual points.

1. "He tries to add fear to the situation, when he says that it could hit a Townie, or worse, a POWERROLE. To me, this is blatant fearmongering."

Your opinion on what I said, was that because I was cautious with your faulty attempt at a case, I was fearmongering? Me saying you could hit a powerrole is me being cautious, not trying to cast fear onto anyone. Truth be told, you could say ANYTIME you lynch someone, you could hit a powerrole. But it'd be to no advantage. I wasn't discouraging a lynch, I was discouraging a lynch based on faulty reasoning.

2. "He then tries to call my posting entrapment, which it isn't."

I love how you throw the word in "tries." I'm pretty sure Me: "If anything, it's trapping play" was me calling your play trapping. There was nothing "attempted" there. It was blantantly called out. But grammar and punctuation aside, your quote here:

"If we keep you around, you're likely to continue this distracting play, and are going to lead to the Town's loss"

(which could also be considered fear mongering you hypocrite.. oh no, if we keep him around we lose??) that post above is a trap. No matter what he says, you can twist to use against him because you set it up perfectly here. Now it's a "you're only talking because I'm pressuring you, let's lynch him anyways" or a "see now you're not making a good enough defense, you're obviously going to be a distraction goodbye! lynch time!" Either way, no matter what he does, you've now successfully set up a potential lynch. And if you're scum, a mislynch which is a perfect chance. I've played enough games as scum to know a scum mindset and a scummy trapping play when I see it.

3. "You are saying that Pinkfloyd specifically gets better once outside of RVS, and that wagoning him now is a bad thing. You are saying that my argument is wrong."

This is so misrepresenting what I said, it's not even funny. First and foremost, this isn't even my case. Show me anywhere in my posting where I stated anything that you just said I stated. You're a liar, simply put. I never said Pink gets better, nor did I say a wagon on him is a bad thing. I never even really called your argument wrong, just faulty. My original post is here so people can compare what you said I said, to what I really said and see how you've completely pulled your accusation out of your butt. I explained your play was trapping, explained why it was bad, explained the possible result, and even clarified that my problem wasn't with Pink, it was with your fault case. I clarified that when I stated that "I'll gladly prove how many people JUST LIKE HIM..." It wasn't him I was arguing for, it was the faulty case I was arguing against. I never came to HIS defense personally.

4. "I'd also like to ask you what purpose your post was meant to have."

You're right but let me clarify. What I wanted was: I wanted to stop the wagon from developing on something faulty such as your case. I wanted to call you out for obvious entrapment, scummy play deserves to be called scummy. I wanted the town to approach the situation you created cautiously, and not blindly. And I wanted to see your reaction. Unfortunately, for the last part you've started to confirm to me that you're scum-motivated and not town-motivated like I was expecting. You can attack me for pointing out your faulty case all day long, but either way the spot light will stay between us which is exactly where I'm comfortable with it being. I have nothing to hide, but I'm pretty sure you do.

1. This is reasonable, but is not what your post reads as to me. To me, it reads as an attempt to quickly shut down a fledgling wagon by trying to spread a fear of the potential for an unknown role to be a PR.

2. You calling my posting entrapment does not make it so. The second part is just blatant misrepping my post. I'm not "Setting up a mislynch", I'm setting up a wagon. Wagons and vote analysis are the two best ways to find scum, and only one of those is available to us on D1.

3. I understand this as well, but again it's not how the post reads to me. To me, it just looks like you're trying to make a specific case in to a broad one in order to try and "wash your hands" of what you saw as an incoming lynch.

4. Keeping the spotlight between us two only is AWFUL and extremely anti-town. Even if one of us turns out to be Mafia and get lynched today, the other is going to be killed tonight and then the Town is left with basically nothing else on D2, except one scum dead and a few reactions. It is much more beneficial to get everyone's opinions and concrete statements and, more importantly, DISCUSSION.

In that vein, I'd like to ask everyone, especially Cav, what they think of the exchange between me and Neil so far (specifically whether they think one of us is wrong and one right, if we're both right, if we're both wrong, or whatever else)
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:13 pm

Post by bv310 »

Also, protip: don't get drunk and go on MS. Post 46 is the kind of thing that develops. :P
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:52 pm

Post by Cav »

To me the discussion reads as a couple of minor points blown completely out of proportion. For example, you both need to stop debating whether Neil was implying that you implied that he inferred that you were attempting to enforce a case to entrap Pink or wherever that particular circularity has got to, it reads as a point of semantics. I'd say that neither of you are right, but that the nature of the discussion is not of wrong and right; neither of you are going to back down on the points you hold because you're both viewing them from your perspective. Neither of you look overly scummy from my perspective, although the fact that Neil seems to want to continue the debate exclusively is slightly worrying. I'm not sure whether its stubborn town or clever scum; you've become the focal point of this day so far and each player is going to be judged in the light of this debate. Coming in fresh it's very hard to get a read on anyone apart from you two and your interactions. Hence my concerns about Isa are based entirely on his reactions to your debate.

I'm interested to see if anyone who's seen the debate unfold in real time has a different view on events.
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:37 pm

Post by pinkfloyd »

Also, protip: don't get drunk and go on MS. Post 46 is the kind of thing that develops.

I 420 in every game
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:01 am

Post by Isa »

Cav, why does it bother you that I have taken a stance in the debate between Bv and Neil?
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:35 am

Post by neil1113 »

I'm sorry for the lack of activity on my end. I can assure you all a post tonight (Catch up, I guess? Though there isn't much to catch up with..) and with that post I'll address everything that I've yet to. I can't post right now because I have work in 30 minutes, then gym, then girlfriend.. neither of the three would be very approving of me missing to post in a Mafia game. :)
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Spoiler: My Record for Mafiascum.net
#1. 5-2 Scum
#2. 3-6 Town
#3. 0-1 3rd Party
Archaebob
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Hats off to Neil for some incredible town play.

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When I read up, I was just amazed by neil. Awesome reads.
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:02 am

Post by pinkfloyd »

then girlfriend

Smashin' box all night, Yeeaaaaaah buddy!
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:57 am

Post by Collyer »

In post 87, bv310 wrote:
In post 79, Collyer wrote:

Yeah, did you ever believe in your case on pink enough to see him lynched today?
Absolutely not. It's page 4. If anything, I wanted to put enough pressure on him to try and get reactions from everyone else, then try and find scum that way. That's why I hated when Neil jumped in and white-knighted him, and then when I turned to Neil, his reaction read to me as really scummy.


The question seems silly now since you are so forceful in your answer, although I also think that you were a little too aggressive. I couldn't quite tell at one point as to whether you really wanted him lynched. You say you hated Neil jumping in and 'white knighting' him, but you were drunk when you voted for him (I'm not attacking you about that by the way); did you continue your attacks on Neil because you really thought him to be scummy or because you didn't want to have to unvote and look weak? I suppose what I'm asking is whether or not you beleive in this case too? Do you want Neil lynched today? I notice you want everyone to give their view on your discussion, which is good (especially as Neil tried make it exclusive to you), but is this another search for reactions, or is it genuine?
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:02 pm

Post by Cav »

In post 91, Isa wrote:Cav, why does it bother you that I have taken a stance in the debate between Bv and Neil?


Because you alone are so wholly in support of one side of the argument, while never actually saying which points of Neils you agree with, or why Bv fails to convince you. Then, when Collyer raises some points about Neils argument, you dismiss it all as nitpicking. Apart from your post 50 when you say you didn't like Neils attack on Bv, you've been entirely convinced by Neils arguments. My problem with this is that you, like Neil, seem interested in keeping the debate focused on Bv and Neil alone, which ultimately leaves little room for any reads of any other players, and looks like you're setting up Bv to be lynched by isolating him from the player base.
Why does Neil convince you so much more than Bv?
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:12 am

Post by pinkfloyd »

I'm tired tonight, I'll post more gibberish later

dxfghndtrfhnbcgfhsdetrfghxbcb
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:37 pm

Post by Thomas »

Man, is anyone gonna replace BobbyDrakeIceman or malpascp yet? It's been 11 days.

In post 87, bv310 wrote:In that vein, I'd like to ask everyone, especially Cav, what they think of the exchange between me and Neil so far (specifically whether they think one of us is wrong and one right, if we're both right, if we're both wrong, or whatever else)
Both of you have made some good points but I don't exactly think that both of you are right but you're not necessarily wrong either. I'm not sure if you were actually trying to lynch pinkfloyd so early (you said you didn't intend to) but it sure sounded like you did and neil explained why lynching one solely from actions in RVS is bad, so you called that textbook scum play which I disagree with. Perhaps you didn't realize that, from the point of view of others, it looked like you really wanted to lynch pinkfloyd when you actually didn't want to. I think that neil thought you really were trying to lynch pinkfloyd so early which led to him saying that stuff and I agree with what he said. Now you guys are still arguing about the early part of the argument and you're picking apart posts a little too much. I also think that your argument has taken up the spotlight and made it harder to get reads on others but the major factor is that this game is extremely slow. The game started 11 days ago and I can't think of any good reads I have. Post more guys!
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:58 pm

Post by SigmaEXE003 »

And Shinki replaces BobbyDrakeIceman. Please welcome her to the game.
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:41 am

Post by SigmaEXE003 »

And Fakinha replaces princesskdw. Please welcome him to the game.

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