Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: Didn't Rhinox explain why he was absent most of D2? I will agree that the last second vote is slightly suspicious, but not enough to overly change my mind.

Uh, no. Today, he said he was going to re-read this last weekend and said he lost internet and was unable to do so. However, there's no explanation of his absence during day two other than generic things like "lost my motivation".

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

fishythefish (2) - Magua
Sleepless Assassin (1) - Debonair Danny DiPietro

Not Voting (10) - Sleepless Assassin, fishythefish, Voidedmafia, DCLXVI, hiplop, kortul, rhinox

With 13 vote in play it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline for day three is May 28th, 7AM PST

[Rhinox]

DDD: actually I am kinda a wall poster by default when I really get going so I'm not going to take any town points you were giving me for that.

Idk I just wasn't sold on either lynch yesterday and waffled. Glad I got my vote in the right place, kinda straightens out my reads I think.

Yeah no good reason for being MIA D2. sorry. I'll just be better.

[DCLXVI]

DCLXVI, can you help me with the following? I am confused by your "Just to be clear, I don't intend on voting macro or DDD wagons just to save myself from getting lynched as I think they are town." If you are town, you definitely know only your own alignment, so why sacrifice yourself for someone else? I don't see any scum motivation here, just don't understand the mindset, can you explain your thoughts?

Well, I (wrongly) considered macro town at that point, and as DDD/anxiety were also strong townreads because of their claims I didn't want them lynched.

As I think we noticed yesterday it is very easy for a quick bandwagon to form up, I was hoping for a sleepless assassin lynch because of how he jumped on me.

My play was not good at all yesterday and I was having trouble getting any reads, so at that point I did not feel like it would hurt town if I got lynched. But with this scum flip and the claims I think there is a lot more to work off on.

The two people I currently suspect are SA and fishy.

Scum were trying to get a counterwagon to Macro, they went at DDD, then Anxiety, luckily for town they had good claims, scum then went for me. With my VT claim it seemed like I was going to be lynched.

Town:
Rhinox:scum won't hop over to a partner with someone else claiming vt at l-1.
Voided: Probably is mason with 4xniety
DDD:believable claim, not an ability I would think scum would be allowed to have.

Inbetween:
Magua
hiplop
kortul

Scum:
Fishy-I believe fishy was on the DDD, 4nxiety, and DCL wagons (but I will need to check)
SA-starting the counterwagon on me

I'll put a vote on either of them later on I need to go back and look at some stuff

[DCLXVI]

Two reason I find fishy scummy:

1. His defending of macro

So, the case on Macro. I think it sucks. Points I can find against him:

- His original vote on Voided. I see nothing scummy about it at all.
- His turnaround from thinking Voided is scum to town. I can't see a scum motivation for this at all - Voided was dead set on Macro, and appeasing him wasn't going to do Macro any good. And the timing makes it really fit with Macro-town-giving-up at that point; I can really see Macro thinking that the argument he'd had with Voided made Voided look ok, and he just didn't care about consistency.
- The claims. I don't think they look scummy. I don't think scum are likely claim not-VT and then VT - that's just not how you
getting lynched.
- His turnaround back to thinking Voided is scummy. It happened a while after he attacked Voided, and they'd interacted in the mean time. I don't see why this is scummy at all. How is this a particularly scummy change of opinion?
- Defending himself by saying he is town. This isn't typically scummy, and I can't find any scummy examples of it in Macro's play.
- Calling DCL town with poor reasoning. This is pretty weak; DCL's response is what a townie *should* say, and to call it townish is hardly unlikely.

Fishy didn't just say something along the lines of "I think macro is town, or I think the case on him is bad" instead he went through and refuted it point by point he really did not want macro lynched.

2. He was on all the counterwagons.

Fishy voted for DDD, got off after the claim.
Jumps to 4nxiety, gets off after the claim
Then jumps on me, and calls for my lynch despite having previously called me a town read multiple times. He was desperate for a lynch other than macro.

Vote:Fishythefish

this is our scum, lynch him.

[Sleepless Assassin]

DDD, in that quote, "voice" should have beenn "vote". Someone asked why my vote was on 4n and that was my response. He was my top scum read and I wanted that clear. I was vocal about thinking macro was town because he really looked like town to me. If I was his buddy, I wouldn't have put myself out there like that knowing he'd probably end up lynched at some point. Honestly, when I saw the flip, I fully expected votes to come my way as well as towards fish because he and I were pretty much the only players to call macro town repeatedly at the end of the day.

As I said before though, I need to reread some things before I commit to any reads.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, in that quote, "voice" should have beenn "vote". Someone asked why my vote was on 4n and that was my response.

No, I understand that voice meant vote or at least I understood the sentiment. The problem is that for someone who claimed they wanted their vote to match their opinion; yours didn't. There was really no opinion of me being scum and then suddenly you tossed down a massive vote on me without having the opinion to match as far as I could tell; that's my problem.

[Sleepless Assassin]

That's because I went from "we have a while, a lot can happen" mode to "deadline is coming, guess I gotta settle" mode.

[Fishythefish]

This is just a nice easy response/defence post. I'll get down to some scumhunting later today.

@Magua: did you check out the meta I posted? I think it shows strongly that this is not how I play as scum, which seemed to be what your read is based on. Why do you think I'm scum (other than PoE)?

I did. I still think you're scum. Hence, my vote.

Given that your big townread flipped scum and you now think one of your scumreads is town, I'm curious who do *you* think is scum now?

Your scumread on me was for "Way too much equivocating, vacillating, way too little in terms of actual reads or trying to do shit.". When I and someone else said that that wasn't a scumread, you said it was

for me

- you brought up LWIII as a town game where I didn't play like this, and Trader Mafia as a scum game where I did. I said that the Trader Mafia example is nothing like this, and that my other scum games aren't either. If you really think I'm scum because this flopping around matches my scum meta, that should be highly relevant, and responding simply that you read my meta is totally inadequate.

If you read those games, focus on one (excluding txt Mafia, where I'm sorry to say I lurked in a way obviously incomparable to this game). Trader Mafia, if you like, since you already said that was similar to my play here. Go though that game, day by day. How much do my scum reads change? How much do I equivocate? How does that compare to here? The answers are clear if you read my meta, and your only stated reason for thinking I'm scum is actually a strong reason why I'm town. Tarhalindur once described me as having an "inverted meta" - I look more town as scum than town. The reason for that is that as scum you can control your reads to look good - as town you have to say what you actually think, and if that's not particularly interesting/useful you end up looking like scum.

Right now, I've got no clue who's scum. I need to do a reread in the light of new information. I've set aside a good chunk of time for that in about 12 hours time - you'll have an answer after that.

Two reason I find fishy scummy:

1. His defending of macro

So, the case on Macro. I think it sucks. Points I can find against him:

- His original vote on Voided. I see nothing scummy about it at all.
- His turnaround from thinking Voided is scum to town. I can't see a scum motivation for this at all - Voided was dead set on Macro, and appeasing him wasn't going to do Macro any good. And the timing makes it really fit with Macro-town-giving-up at that point; I can really see Macro thinking that the argument he'd had with Voided made Voided look ok, and he just didn't care about consistency.
- The claims. I don't think they look scummy. I don't think scum are likely claim not-VT and then VT - that's just not how you
getting lynched.
- His turnaround back to thinking Voided is scummy. It happened a while after he attacked Voided, and they'd interacted in the mean time. I don't see why this is scummy at all. How is this a particularly scummy change of opinion?
- Defending himself by saying he is town. This isn't typically scummy, and I can't find any scummy examples of it in Macro's play.
- Calling DCL town with poor reasoning. This is pretty weak; DCL's response is what a townie *should* say, and to call it townish is hardly unlikely.

Fishy didn't just say something along the lines of "I think macro is town, or I think the case on him is bad" instead he went through and refuted it point by point he really did not want macro lynched.

2. He was on all the counterwagons.

Fishy voted for DDD, got off after the claim.
Jumps to 4nxiety, gets off after the claim
Then jumps on me, and calls for my lynch despite having previously called me a town read multiple times. He was desperate for a lynch other than macro.

Vote:Fishythefish

this is our scum, lynch him.

So, two things. Firstly, why don't you think I'm town? Sure, you have an image of scumFishy, and it's not totally stupid, but what's wrong with the other (correct) scenario - that I'm a townie who thought Macro was town? You say I refuted Macro's case point by point because I "really did not want Macro lynched". Yep, that's bang on. The

reason

I really didn't want him lynched was that I really though he was town. Similarly, I supported every wagon against him, and it's even stronger than that - I actively voted you over him while calling you town in the same post. You say I was desperate for a lynch other than macro - again, that's bang on. Thinking Macro was town, I wanted other people lynched, even people nowhere near the top of my scumlist. Why shouldn't I feel like that just because Macro was town to me? What do you do when people are wagonning your townreads?

Secondly, and less importantly, I think the picture you have of me as scum is unlikely in a couple of ways. Having ridden the Macro wagon to L-1 day 1, it would be creating a huge and unnecessary link to defend him so consistently and insistently late day 1 and day 2 - particularly when he was both a) always a likely lynch and b) not a powerful scumbag. I'd have to be so desperate to save Macro that I had no interest at all in trying to look good when he died - and with Macro probably going down eventually, and me looking ok, why would I be that desperate? And if I

was

going all out to save Macro, I think my play on DDD would be rather unlikely. You said this:

Scum were trying to get a counterwagon to Macro, they went at DDD, then Anxiety, luckily for town they had good claims, scum then went for me. With my VT claim it seemed like I was going to be lynched.

But you might want to reread DDD's "good claim". He claimed his role name, and that's it. I unvoted immediately, and then I asked DDD questions to tease out relevant details of his role. I then called him town, and later explained what role I thought he had and why he was town. I think it's fair to say that I'm the reason that wagon fell apart without even a claim. If I really was scum who was prepared to save Macro at any cost, why would I do that?

[Voidedmafia]

(just a warning, I may restate things that have been said already, even from myself. Please don't complain when that happens.)

Going through Malee's ISO, there isn't anything I can say works as an associative tell. Largely because the two biggest choices for this (Nacho and 4nx) are already dead and flipped town.

Theo is a bit better prospect. His first post of substance has the whole "some whole cases, some short sentences" thing, but the interesting thing here is that Fishy and SA are the only ones that have any sort of overtly articulated case (that is, the case is actually explained). This sort of mish-mash has already been addressed, but why did he pick those two? While it may seem counter-intuitive to do this, it's just as likely that he decided to bus both his partners, though him only bussing one is more likely (if anyone has gone down this reasoning before, by all means link me to where). He doesn't throw a vote down on either, though, so it's possible that it's just light bussing/pressure.

Also notable is that all the short reads are null (Nacho, 4nx, Kortul, vincent/me, funky/DCL) to townreads (Rhinox, LS, Alice) with the sole exceptiona of DDD, which I can let slide until there's proof one way or another of DDD's role, and hiplop. I'd say the other scum is within the null reads, barring Rhonix being kick-ass scum this game. And of those, I'd honestly lean DCL over Kortul being the other scum.

Next post doesn't have much else that's useful (except the Alice comment, but that's forthcoming). Most of it deals with LS and 4nx, who're dead, thus making this post worthless for associative tells.

His last post is arguably the most interesting one as it has the "Alice flip", but for the purposes that I'm looking for, I don't think it's what I'm looking for. The most I can possibly see out of this is that it makes Alice look townier. It's still possible that theo was trying for some sort of tactic to get towncred for either of them (most likely Alice than him), but in that sense it's just too unlikely. Alice does gain more townpoints from this, however.

Macro next.

[Magua]

Your scumread on me was for "Way too much equivocating, vacillating, way too little in terms of actual reads or trying to do shit.". When I and someone else said that that wasn't a scumread, you said it was for me - you brought up LWIII as a town game where I didn't play like this, and Trader Mafia as a scum game where I did. I said that the Trader Mafia example is nothing like this, and that my other scum games aren't either. If you really think I'm scum because this flopping around matches my scum meta, that should be highly relevant, and responding simply that you read my meta is totally inadequate.

I find it rather adequate. I've discounted the list of people who I have reason to believe are town. I have left a very small list of people who I think can be scum. Of those, I find you are the most likely to be scum. This lasts until I find some reason to think that you're not scum (hasn't happened yet) or I find someone to be more likely scum than you (also hasn't happened yet).

As is, what you've posted is a defense of yourself to me and to DCL, but again without any indication of who you think is scum. And it's D3 with 4 flips.

Will reevaluate when you actually post scumreads.

@DDD:

When did you activate/choose to use your ability? Do you pick a specific person or what?

[Magua]

@Mod:

Kindly prod hiplop

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

That's because I went from "we have a while, a lot can happen" mode to "deadline is coming, guess I gotta settle" mode.

I don't like settling; I especially don't like settling on me.

@DDD:

When did you activate/choose to use your ability? Do you pick a specific person or what?

I mean obviously I've been thinking about it for a long time; I really settled on wanting to use it on Macro at the start of D2 given the way D1 had gone down and because my name kept popping up in his mouth as scum. So I thought worst case was that I ended up with his vote but more likely I was screwing with what scum wanted to do with their will. I pulled the trigger late on D2; right before my pointy gun thingy post when it was pretty clear that Macro was the only option for a lynch and that even if it had gone to no lynch he probably would've been the play today.

[Rhinox]

Iso'd SA, took some notes.

Only thing worth posting is a possible connection to macro. In #192, SA does some isos and determines DCL (funky) and macro (malee) are likely scum but votes funky "because I don't feel like putting a player who can't claim at L-1" - when malee was replacing out.

Later, he has an "epiphany" about 4nx and concludes 4nx is scum therefor malee is town and still suspects funky.

Town reads on LS and macro by the end of D1 and heavy defending of macro during D2. Not sure if scum would defend macro like he did.

Those are the IMO noteworthy points, planning to look at kortul next.

[Sleepless Assassin]

DDD, settling gets a lynch through.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, settling (on DDD) gets a (mis)lynch through.

Cleaned that up for you.

~~

Pretty sure I'm going to be mighty tired of hearing, "scum wouldn't defend their partner so blatently" from the "scum wouldn't claim non-VT and then switch to a VT claim" crew before this day is over.

[Sleepless Assassin]

A deadline lynch gives a better chance of lynching scum than a no lynch does.

[hiplop]

I was chiefly pushing macro, and was on him CONSTANTLY.

the logic in a bus there is fucking crazy

fiahy is a good bet, i think.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

A deadline lynch gives a better chance of lynching scum than a no lynch does.

Reciting tired mafia catechisms at me doesn't exactly sway me in the way you probably were hoping.

[Fishythefish]

First, analysis of people's interactions with our dead scumbag. IMO, Macro's play is fairly dull, as is his predecessors'. Makes me think DCL and DDD are town, but doesn't really point to any scumbags. Much more interesting is what other people said about him.

Alice/Magua

Alice attacked Malee early with a serious case in 96. But then she said "hmmm, I'll think about it" to Malee's rather weak response of "I wasn't paying enough attention", then declares intention of moving off to funkybike before actually doing so, with this rather weird post:

Nacho makes an excellent point on funky. Also Kortul. Consider me persuaded, though I'll keep my vote on Malee for now. I'd probably be willing to switch to funky whenever.

Reads like possible distancing - the serious seeming case gets abandoned pretty quickly without any more pushing, and in this rather forced way. She also says, very early "If Malee flips scum, LS becomes scummier". Could be an attempt to put LS in trouble after Macro goes down. And then Alice doesn't mention the slot for ages, until she

thinks it's been lynched

when she supports the lynch:

Actually, hiplop's post was hammer by my count O___O

That said, I'm not too upset with a Theo lynch. I think that between Malee's poor case-pushing, Theo's amish tell, and Theo's hop onto my wagon, Theo is scummier than Bike. There's more concrete evidence for Theo being scum. While Bike may be scummy (especially with a wagon hop and no explanation), I still feel a bit more uncertain because there's so much lurking going on. While Bike is slightly scummy, I'm paranoid also that he's just an easy target for scum to latch on to. So I will think about that a little more.

For D2, DDD definitely needs to put more effort into scumhunting. I want to see an expanded set of reads from you. Funky should also be examined closely.

This looks like scum trying to distance a bit from theo, by calling attention to her scumread on the slot. She keeps up pressure on theo and then Macro after this, saying she's willing to hammer, and driving home her newly remembered scumread. I can easily imagine this from scum - when her partner is going down, she tries to hop on for late town points. As soon as the pressure on Macro eases (after the VT claim), she hops off.

None of that is impossible for Alice town. But it all fits really, really well with Alice scum with Macro. Magua didn't have much interaction with Macro - called him town and then moved on, essentially. From Alice's play, there's a pretty decent link here for me.

DCL

Something else that looks town to me:

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum

I wouldn't say that I have been pushing you much.

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town?

That really depends on you. If you act like town I hopefully will see you as town. If you act like scum I will most likely see you as scum. I don't see you as definite scum right now.

I just can't imagine scum denying attacking their buddy like this - scum usually want to appear more on the case of a buddy than they really are.

DDD

I thought there was a strong Malee-DDD link early on. Here's me from when it was more fresh in my mind:

DDD hasn't done much, and I don't have much of a read on him. If themoaner's scum, so is DDD:

Can't say I'm really interested in a Malee wagon right now since I think the fundamental point she made was a sound one about Nacho.

Here, DDD is saying that the Malee case is poor because she made a decent point against Nacho. But that's not the point at all – DDD expressed the actual case

himself

here:

It was a good point (not a strong point or a scum point) you had but it says more about you than DDD.

I'd love to know why it was a good point other than pandering to LastSurvivor because even you recognize the point was easily addressed.

VOTE: Nachomamma8
Malee is pathetically shrimping away from this, but I like the point. Nacho's an above-average player and when he's on cruise control and not reading things deeply that suggests to me he's not really looking for scum that deeply.

Malee's “pathetic shrimping” is pretty much the issue with her attack on Nacho. I said that I thought the case wasn't about the actual point, and DDD's answer was that Malee wouldn't bus Nacho. So, we have DDD basing a Malee townread on a Nacho scumread. That seems pretty tenuous – particularly since it seems unlikely that by post 136 DDD had a very strong scumread on Nacho.

This still looks pretty bad to me - DDD is strawmanning the case on Malee in order to dismiss it. Other factors make me pretty certain DDD is town, though - I just don't think you get the wagon pattern we had yesterday if both wagons are on scum. DDD's claim of his power and how he used it makes good sense, and I doubt he'd have used it there as scum. These firmly outweigh this link for me.

kortul

kortul listed Malee/theo/Macro as scum throughout day 1, without ever voting until threatening to hammer at L-1. There always seems to be someone a little bit scummier - SA, then bike, then Alice, then bike. This constant second scumread seems reasonably likely scum-on-scum - wanting to distance from your partner without putting them in too much danger. Fits with his posting on the slot as well - while he kept reiterating his scumread, he never gave much in the way of reasons and didn't do anything to put much pressure on the slot.

After the claim, kortul thought the VT claim was fairly null, and said he hated reading replacement slots. Doesn't fit so well with what I'd have expected of scumkortul, unless Alice is also scum - if Alice is town, he could have taken the opportunity to back off Macro in the company of myself and Alice. Very much FMPOV, of course. Day 2 kortul looks much better. He was consistent on Macro all day, and switched back to him at a key time - when the three wagons (DCL, DDD, Macro) all had 4 votes. He could have stuck on DCL easily, and the move back was important in getting the lynch.

Overall, kortul's play could be bussing, but I'd guess not.

hiplop

hiplop didn't mention Malee/theo for a surprisingly long time, and when questioned said things like this:

While going through his ISO today, i noticed that he never commented on Malee or funkybike1. hiplop, what are you reads (or just thoughts) on them?

Heavily neutral. Which kinda scares me, for that rarely happens. I have a feeling one of them is scum, I just lack the competence to pin point which one

Mentioning the slot for pretty much the first time, he said:

VOTE: moner

Eh, forced due to time restraint

This seems weird given that his favoured wagon (Alice) was joint with theo at this stage.

@hiplop: can you remember why you felt a theo vote was forced here?

hiplop reacted very badly to Macro's claim, and just called him confirmed scum after that. It seems a bit too strong - the claim takes him from very neutral to totally tunelled immediately. Then, extraordinarily, he say this:

DDD's death isn't something I'm against, i was pretty vocal early on , I think. I'm open to hammer, just I believe we should wait a bit.

This looks very much like trying to save his partner. Given that Macro was the second candidate here, and he'd been railing against him so firmly, I struggle to believe hiplop was actually happy for DDD to die - if you thought Macro was scum, DDD was an obvious counterwagon. I think hiplop's a very decent candidate for bussing Macro.

Voided

Pretty simple one. Voided's attacks on Macro look sincere, and like they were intended to get Macro lynched. I don't think they are likely bussing.

Rhinox

Rhinox didn't say much about the slot for most of Day 1, and then made a good a new point and voted theo. Then this about Macro seems unlikely from Rhinoxscum:

@Rhinox: yeah, meant Voided. What do you think of him, here and in the rest of the game?

Idk, I'm having a tough time being confident of reads in this game. Its like, I see big posts from mac up there and now I'm starting to have doubts about lynching the slot, even though big posts shouldn't mean anything about alignment.

I can't really see Rhinox scum admitting that he's dropping his scumread on a buddy for a bad reason. It would take some balls. He then seems to be floundering towards the end of day 1, but in the end tries to go for a Macro lynch. I feel like Rhinox-scum would be taking a firmer stance here - either get some credit for bussing Macro, or actually do something to avert the lynch. Then again, his play doesn't feel like scum day 2 - he changes from Macro to DDD as #1 suspect based partly on the reads of dead townies, which is just the kind of thing that gets negative attention. Again, I don't think Rhinoxscum would use this reasoning, which most people think of as weak, to justify a move on his buddy. The only reason to post this, like the quote above, is if Rhinox is just trying to tell us what he's thinking. Or faking that, rather brilliantly - but I doubt that. He then goes for DDD, and later DCL, all day (insofar as he was doing anything), before finally hammering. That hammer took the votecount from (DCL 6, Macro 5) to (Macro 7, DCL 4) - so it was critical in deciding the lynch. This line of play from Rhinox gets Macro lynched, without getting Rhinox much credit. Doesn't look like bussing scum.

SA

Twice on Day 1, SA said things amounting to "X is scum. X thinks Malee is scum. Malee is probably not scum." - first with me early on, then later with 4n. This seems a stretch - it's excluding the possibility of SA's Day 1 reads being wrong - and it's a convenient way to not have to either vote or defend her. His read on the slot fluctuates, and I tend to believe it, if only because his feelings mirror mine pretty accurately on Day 2. We both moved towards Macro town, and that was partly because we thought the wagon was really weak. And yeah, DDD, I am going to say "scum wouldn't defend their partner so blatantly" - or, at least, it's not very likely. Perhaps likelier than going all out for his lynch and trying to convince people, but not a particularly convincing fit for a scumbuddy.

So, to summarise, how well people fit as scumbuddies for Macro:

Pretty well

Magua/Alice
hiplop

Neutrally

SA

Pretty Badly

kortul
Rhinox

Very Badly

DDD
DCL
Voided

My next step is to focus on the people at the top of this list individually - so Magua, hiplop, SA. Perhaps kortul. I'll try to get this done tonight, but tomorrow is probably more realistic.

[kortul]

No luck with free evenings so far, only halfway with the analysis. Magua, do you have the same problem with your reread, or are the reasons different?

hiplop - are you going to be more alive today?

PEdit: Hmm, what a wall from Fishy, will read tomorrow, not at 1 am.

[hiplop]

I hope so.

how did I react poorly to macros claim? he fucking claimed scum, and so I pushed him as such. Your attempt at mudslinging is showing desperation, major grasping at straws
VOTE: Fishy

Like other have said, he makes sense for scum.

[Fishythefish]

Sorry - by "very badly" I meant that you disliked the claim, not that you were wrong or scummy.

The bits of your interaction I'd like explaining are the other bits. Firstly on day 1, when you voted him, why did you feel you needed to because of "time constraints", when your preferred lynch was equal with him? Secondly, and more importantly, on day 2 you railed against his lynch, saying that he'd claimed scum. So why on earth were you happy to settle for a DDD lynch?

[Fishythefish]

Also, why did you only address one bit of what I said about you? It smacks of cherry picking the weak point to ignore the rest of the argument.

[DCLXVI]

unvote:fishy

been thoroughly analyzing macro's reads, I don't think fishy is scum any more.