Newbie 1248 (GAME OVER)

[Arinna]

So you don't necessarily think he is scum (you have a neutral read on him) but you want to vote for him anyways? Just because he does not agree wth you? And you have a town read on Chronos after he posts twice, both being about theory and game mechanics. Can you say scumbudies? VOTE: Arinna

OK, so to generate discusion, how does everyone feel about Arinna's town read on Chronos and vote on Axxle from Post 25 (<--- I think I did that right, if not just look at post 25). I think it seems rather scummy, anyone else see any validity in her town read, do you think she could be scumbuddies with Chronos and trying to protect him early? Does anyone want to submit any thought at all?

No, I do not think that anyone is necessarily scum right now, but I most certainly do not see a problem with voting for someone whose idea regarding the subject seemed anti-town to me. (I know that this isn't the case all the time, but disagreeing with someone regarding a certain type of policy lynch would mean that I think that the opposite view could potentially be harmful.) And I also do not think that a first vote on someone in such an early stage has to have very sound evidence backing it (we

have

almost no evidence), or that "vote: person X because of their avatar or name" would be more helpful than this. Voting someone does not mean that I am pushing for anyone's lynch. This is my not-so-random "RVS" vote (you know, with the very lowered standards and all) that

has

done some good, as it has generated discussion.

Regarding my town read, it will probably change. However, he

was

trying to get the "actual game" started, which I think is pro-town. If he does not adhere to his words and gets stuck in theory and does not scumhunt, my views on him will change. I do not think he - or anyone, actually - had anything to go on at that moment. Now we do.

Am I and Chronos scumbuddies? Maybe. Maybe not. I can't defend myself, as it would enter a WIFOM argument, which is not needed right now.

That is patently false LC. You may think that an RVS isn't helpful, and I'd agree with you, but to say it doesn't exist as a concept is wrong. As an SE please try and be clear about when you're giving your opinion.

Also, it's a weekend , so let's not get worked up about some players not posting.

I think he's saying there's not an official RVStage with an ending time then suddenly mafia becomes serious.

Vote Seacore

for either skimming or being deliberately obtuse.

I don't like that LC said "There is

no such thing

as the RVS." That

is

a lie, one that can be confusing to new players. If he said something like "The Random Voting Stage is..." and then proceeded to the rest of that post that would be better. It was probably just a mistake made out of hatred for the RVS but don't attack someone for thinking it's misleading when it

is

misleading. I don't think LordChronos meant anything bad by it, but VOTE: wombat for attacking someone for being "obtuse" while himself not trying to understand.

Also just fyi:

for voting you can use the

[vot

e][/vote] tags instead of bold.

(Do you mind if I use blue for things like this, Seacore?)

Regarding this whole branch of discussion, it seemed to me as though Wombat was indeed overreacting, but I think it was good, as it generated some discussion and material~

Arinna strikes me as one of those people with strong convictions fast and early, grabbing at every bit of evidence she can. And that's good. Especially at these early stages. I think she'll sound as convinced at every stage of the game, whether or not she is able to change those ideas of who's town or not remains to be seen.

This is actually a surprisingly good observation of what I had been trying to do. And yes, my opinions

will

probably change, as my votes or town reads are separate from...any other non-game related things I may think of the players.


---

And in fact, my town read on Lord Chronos has slid back to a null. Lord Chronos, Wombat, Seacore, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think of Hyperion's attacks on me?

Axxle, Hyperion, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think about this theoretical discussion that has been going on? (To clarify, I am not asking you about the RVS, but what has been going on between Chronos, Wombat and Seacore, and its implications, if any.)

[LordChronos]

And in fact, my town read on Lord Chronos has slid back to a null. Lord Chronos, Wombat, Seacore, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think of Hyperion's attacks on me?

Axxle, Hyperion, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think about this theoretical discussion that has been going on? (To clarify, I am not asking you about the RVS, but what has been going on between Chronos, Wombat and Seacore, and its implications, if any.)

He is reaching. If I may ask, what dropped your read on me back to null from town, considering that you were still justifying that town read earlier on in this post?

[Arinna]

If I may ask, what dropped your read on me back to null from town, considering that you were still justifying that town read earlier on in this post?

You've stated your dislike towards the RQS because it generates too much theoretical discussion, and hence hinders scumhunting. But haven't you engaged in what seems (at least) to me like a useless discussion about semantics since #30 has arrived? That would be fine, had you also commented on anything else (the only exception is the comment you made on Axxle's remark on me), but you have not stated your opinion neither regarding Wombat's argument/vote, nor regarding Hyperion's comments about me. Perhaps you just don't have opinions on these subjects, or perhaps you wish to save them for later, which is fine, but I think it would be better to write them in terms of generating discussion.

[Arinna]

So it seems that I don't know how to link posts. I had meant Post #30 in this thread, so please don't click the link, it will take you elsewhere.

[Seacore]

wombat is town.

No newbie scum picks a fight with the IC.

[AGar]

Votecount 1.02

crabbyman66

(0) -

Axxle

(2) - Arinna, LordChronos

wombat99

(0) -

Arinna

(0) -

Balnazzar

(0) -

Hyperion

(0) -

LordChronos

(2) - Mortontfrh, Seacore

Mortontfrh

(0) -

Seacore

(1) - wombat99

Not Voting

(4) - crabbyman66, Axxle, Balnazzar, Hyperion,

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Two players

are the current wagon leader(s), at

L-3

Deadline is in (expired on 2012-06-23 07:00:00)

[Hyperion]

No, I do not think that anyone is necessarily scum right now, but I most certainly do not see a problem with voting for someone whose idea regarding the subject seemed anti-town to me. (I know that this isn't the case all the time, but disagreeing with someone regarding a certain type of policy lynch would mean that I think that the opposite view could potentially be harmful.) And I also do not think that a first vote on someone in such an early stage has to have very sound evidence backing it (we

have

almost no evidence), or that "vote: person X because of their avatar or name" would be more helpful than this. Voting someone does not mean that I am pushing for anyone's lynch. This is my not-so-random "RVS" vote (you know, with the very lowered standards and all) that

has

done some good, as it has generated discussion.

Either way, you said you want to vote for him because he disagrees with you, first, thats horribly anti town, second, his policy (lynching lurkers) is better than trying to get them to participate, because some people don't respond to the prodding. and letting them get replaced brings in a brand new person, who we need to reevaluate in possibly a limited time period, and if they had been following the game, they could have some genuine pre-determined reads to share, so even if they are scum, they can find ways to contribute.
Voting for someone DOES mean you are trying to lynch them because you are getting closer to being lynched.
And its not random if you actually give a legit reason (like a disagreement on a policy), your reason wasnt good, but it was better than "because of his name" and it wasnt random.

[Hyperion]

That is patently false LC. You may think that an RVS isn't helpful, and I'd agree with you, but to say it doesn't exist as a concept is wrong. As an SE please try and be clear about when you're giving your opinion.

Also, it's a weekend , so let's not get worked up about some players not posting.

I think he's saying there's not an official RVStage with an ending time then suddenly mafia becomes serious.

Vote Seacore

for either skimming or being deliberately obtuse.

I don't like that LC said "There is

no such thing

as the RVS." That

is

a lie, one that can be confusing to new players. If he said something like "The Random Voting Stage is..." and then proceeded to the rest of that post that would be better. It was probably just a mistake made out of hatred for the RVS but don't attack someone for thinking it's misleading when it

is

misleading. I don't think LordChronos meant anything bad by it, but VOTE: wombat for attacking someone for being "obtuse" while himself not trying to understand.

Also just fyi:

for voting you can use the

[vot

e][/vote] tags instead of bold.

(Do you mind if I use blue for things like this, Seacore?)

Axxle, Hyperion, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think about this theoretical discussion that has been going on? (To clarify, I am not asking you about the RVS, but what has been going on between Chronos, Wombat and Seacore, and its implications, if any.)

Looking at it, I don't know where Wombat is coming from with that vote, it seems like a general misunderstanding.


and on an unrelated note, Axxle is slightly overdefensive from LC's vote on him.

[wombat99]

OK, so to generate discusion, how does everyone feel about Arinna's town read on Chronos and vote on Axxle from Post 25 (<--- I think I did that right, if not just look at post 25). I think it seems rather scummy, anyone else see any validity in her town read, do you think she could be scumbuddies with Chronos and trying to protect him early? Does anyone want to submit any thought at all?

Ah, replace all references to wombat from he to she in my post. Failed to check info for that, sorry wombat.

Arinna strikes me as one of those people with strong convictions fast and early, grabbing at every bit of evidence she can. And that's good. Especially at these early stages. I think she'll sound as convinced at every stage of the game, whether or not she is able to change those ideas of who's town or not remains to be seen.

That's ok Axxle. Actually I just updated my profile yesterday so I was asexual until then

I agree with your take on Arinna's play style. Actually I get a bit of a "prepared to the point of being scripted" vibe from her, for lack of a better term, as if she had decided at the outset what her opening gambit would be: discuss RVS then vote for someone who disagrees with her. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[wombat99]

And in fact, my town read on Lord Chronos has slid back to a null. Lord Chronos, Wombat, Seacore, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think of Hyperion's attacks on me?

Axxle, Hyperion, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think about this theoretical discussion that has been going on? (To clarify, I am not asking you about the RVS, but what has been going on between Chronos, Wombat and Seacore, and its implications, if any.)

You stated that you have a Town read on Chronos but backed off as soon as you were questioned by Hyperion (not "attacked"). You are pinging me.

[wombat99]

NETA: I fail at tablet quoting. The second paragraph in my quote above was said by Hyperion, not Arinna.

[Axxle]

@Arinna: I've explained some of my views regarding their situation but this is a more objective view: Lord Chronos said something ambiguous, but did not think it was ambiguous. Seacore called him out on it. Wombat also didn't think LC was being ambiguous and called Seacore out on seeing something where there is nothing. Maybe this is all genuine. But I don't think so. I think Seacore's reaction is perfectly fine before LC explained himself. I think LC believed he was being clear. I think wombat is, ah, hmm... Well... at the time I thought it was obvious that LC was being ambiguous but since LC's explanation I can see how wombat would have thought it was understandable at first glance.

UNVOTE: wombat

@LC: I don't see how defending a previous opinion can preclude you from having a new opinion. (This is with regards to Arinna changing her opinion of you)

Speaking of lurkers, crabbyman and Mortontfrh haven't spoken up yet even though they logged in yesterday evening when things were beginning to get interesting.

Actually... wow. Looking back makes Seacore look scummy where I didn't see it before. Did anyone else notice he put the second vote on LC soon after Morton's RVS vote on LC?

Seacore: What is your opinion of Arinna?

[Arinna]

Either way, you said you want to vote for him because he disagrees with you, first, thats horribly anti town, second, his policy (lynching lurkers) is better than trying to get them to participate, because some people don't respond to the prodding. and letting them get replaced brings in a brand new person, who we need to reevaluate in possibly a limited time period, and if they had been following the game, they could have some genuine pre-determined reads to share, so even if they are scum, they can find ways to contribute.
Voting for someone DOES mean you are trying to lynch them because you are getting closer to being lynched.
And its not random if you actually give a legit reason (like a disagreement on a policy), your reason wasnt good, but it was better than "because of his name" and it wasnt random.

Not because he disagrees with me, but because I disagree with him. On a matter that I consider can be pro- or anti- town depending on the leaning. Since I view my opinion as pro-town, the opposing view would be anti-town.

Regarding the lurker lynching, I would not be against it if no one seems scummy, but it can be an easy way for scum to blend in by being active and then pushing for the lynch of a townie lurker. The view I'm defending is not that lurkers should never be lynched, but that they should not be lynched as a result of policy-lynching, as policy-lynchings in this case would, in my opinion, really hurt town.

Voting for someone can mean

many

things. The vote is not only a tool for lynching people, but also a tool for pressuring others, or reaction-fishing, or generating discussion (let's be honest, if I had FoSed Axxle, all of these discussions would not have been started.)

Yes, I've said "not-so-random" RVS vote, using the RVS definition from the article that Chronos had sent (you know, dramatically lowering the minimum requirements for scumminess and etc.) Please check the article if you don't believe me about this. ^^ It was actually that which had prompted me to vote for Axxle.

You stated that you have a Town read on Chronos but backed off as soon as you were questioned by Hyperion (not "attacked"). You are pinging me.

I don't view changing my opinions based on what I think are logical reasons to be backing off. I had considered to be more town because he had said it was better to scumhunt rather than to get stuck on theoretical discussions, but then he got stuck on theoretical discussions without commenting that much on the other line of discussion..and hence, my reason for getting more of a town vibe from him crumbled.

[LordChronos]

If I may ask, what dropped your read on me back to null from town, considering that you were still justifying that town read earlier on in this post?

You've stated your dislike towards the RQS because it generates too much theoretical discussion, and hence hinders scumhunting. But haven't you engaged in what seems (at least) to me like a useless discussion about semantics since #30 has arrived? That would be fine, had you also commented on anything else (the only exception is the comment you made on Axxle's remark on me), but you have not stated your opinion neither regarding Wombat's argument/vote, nor regarding Hyperion's comments about me. Perhaps you just don't have opinions on these subjects, or perhaps you wish to save them for later, which is fine, but I think it would be better to write them in terms of generating discussion.

Except my discussion in #47 (I believe) with Seacore/Axxle was centered on their ridiculous mischaracterization of what I said and on Wombat's argument and vote and I responded to you about Hyperion's comments about you in the very post you are quoting here.

[Axxle]

LC. I really don't want to make a big deal out of this but it seems like you want to. You were ambiguous. The definition of ambiguity is lack of clarity. That both myself and Seacore misinterpreted what you said means it wasn't clear. That's all I'm trying to say. I am not saying that you did so maliciously, and yet you keep lumping me in with Seacore saying that I am.

[crabbyman66]

I'm so bad at Day 1...

Even after reading over everything multiple times, nothing really strikes me as odd.

[Hyperion]

I'm so bad at Day 1...

Even after reading over everything multiple times, nothing really strikes me as odd.

If you cant find anything to comment on, answer some of the questions that people have asked. Think on each question and answer them as logically as you can. In thinking on the quesions, you may find something that you want to comment on.

[Axxle]

I'm so bad at Day 1...

Even after reading over everything multiple times, nothing really strikes me as odd.

That... strikes me as odd. Everyone else already seems to have some opinion on what's happened. Go with what Hyperion suggests.

[Axxle]

Actually... wow. Looking back makes Seacore look scummy where I didn't see it before. Did anyone else notice he put the second vote on LC soon after Morton's RVS vote on LC?

Seacore: What is your opinion of Arinna?

VOTE: Seacore
You were here in the afternoon and I get no response. What gives?

[Seacore]

I'm at work, I don't get much of a chance to type, but I try to stay in touch with the game so I read. I also often read by phone but like to avoid typing on it.

I also had the duty of closing off the game I was running, so that took the small amount of time I had. I'll get to you.

I have mixed feelings on Arinna. There is something that she's doing that is pinning my scumdar, but I want to ISO to make sure that I'm not misreading an over-eager newbie which is to be expected. So I'll get to you later.

[Arinna]

Except my discussion in #47 (I believe) with Seacore/Axxle was centered on their ridiculous mischaracterization of what I said and on Wombat's argument and vote and I responded to you about Hyperion's comments about you in the very post you are quoting here.

Yes, I've checked the posts once again, and you're right. Not only that, but there was only one post where you completely focused on the theoretical discussion. You have made two posts in that discussion; in one, you found Axxle suspicious, the second one was the one without reactions... Well, at least this teaches me to re-check the validity of my perceptions before I put them forward.

[Mortontfrh]

Going to be on V/LA until the 6th at the earliest to deal with some real life crap, sorry guys.

[Axxle]

I'm at work, I don't get much of a chance to type, but I try to stay in touch with the game so I read. I also often read by phone but like to avoid typing on it.

I also had the duty of closing off the game I was running, so that took the small amount of time I had. I'll get to you.

I have mixed feelings on Arinna. There is something that she's doing that is pinning my scumdar, but I want to ISO to make sure that I'm not misreading an over-eager newbie which is to be expected. So I'll get to you later.

... still waiting...

[Axxle]

Going to be on V/LA until the 6th at the earliest to deal with some real life crap, sorry guys.

No worries, thanks for letting us know.

[Seacore]

I'm at work, I don't get much of a chance to type, but I try to stay in touch with the game so I read. I also often read by phone but like to avoid typing on it.

I also had the duty of closing off the game I was running, so that took the small amount of time I had. I'll get to you.

I have mixed feelings on Arinna. There is something that she's doing that is pinning my scumdar, but I want to ISO to make sure that I'm not misreading an over-eager newbie which is to be expected. So I'll get to you later.

... still waiting...

Dude, cut it out, seriously. And I don't just mean for me or this game. People have real lives. They also live in different timezones. I'm in Australia and I work during the day and then look after my daughter until my wife gets home. Then I get some PC time and I can play.
If days passed, and if I had posted here without answering or if I had posted in other games without posting here, then you can get uppity, but until then, just be patient.