Open 419 Diffusion of Power - Game Over

[IceGuy]

Okay, the deal with Venmar is: He seems to be a relatively new player who's active and posting a lot. I'm the only player who posted more than he did, and I generally posted only single sentences while he posted entire paragraphs. I mostly agree with Anon re: him. Logically, I'd give him a town read; gut screams scum. The point is that we're going to find out for sure on D2 or D3, though. There is no point lynching him right now.

[DeltaWave]

^ That last sentence doesn't make much sense.

It seems like you're jumping on wagons and giving logical reason to justify your voting so you don't look like you're voting blindly, but at the same time the reasons you give seem artifical and fake, and it looks like you're just being opportunistic.

Why are Scott's reasons artificial and fake? I ask because Scott is town as fuck.

[FuDuzn]

Well Delta, if Scott is so 'town as fuck' then instead of waiting for reasons from Dayne to why he is scummy why don't you tell us why he is town?

And Anon, how can you say that Mala is displaying good logic? I would like to some reasoning there.

And Mala, totally not game related, but do you know who/what DMZ is/are? Your name keeps reminding me of it.

[Voidedmafia]

Also why are you answering for Mala?

That's not really answering for her/him?

Ser Post 248 - Possible, but again, why DY? He was barely there D1, and while his activity did pick up near the end of the day, I don't think it was enough to really warrant him being the NK.

...Well, I guess that means he WAS a shot in the dark <_<

COnfid Post 249: It hasn't happened yet because it won't.

[Venmar]

Ok first of all i want to address a post from day 1 that was aimed at me. I was very lazy at the end of day 1 so i never got around to making this post, but i will make it now and address the things aimed at me in this post.

- Don't see why we would want everyone that works on a specific night to claim, the chances aren't in our favor really. There's also the chance that a N1 cop would claim and a scum would claim N1 doc and the cop would end up dead, or a N1 cop would claim and no N1 doc would claim because there wasn't one. These are things we should consider, and that scum can always potentially lie themselves into the claim. Maybe not as a doctor because then a dead cop would put them to the noose, but a claimed cop maybe, and claim that a innocent townie turned up as mafia. Really, this will be a interesting game because claims will probably run rampant at one point or another. ( This is my prediction. )

- That said, i disagree with the theory that cop and doc from a specific night should claim. Odds are not in their favor in my opinion, and pulling it off correctly and at the right time are also factors to consider.

This post pings my gut. I can't exactly explain why . . . if I had to analyze why my gut finds this scummy, it would probably be because it doesn't directly interact with any of the players in thread, but spouts off theory/setup discussion in an effort to appear active.

- Why are you digging up information from the first page? And how is this scummy? This was my first discussion related post of the game. Your reasoning behind this quote is total BS given the circumstances of my post. It looks to me like you are hunting for reasons to pin me as scum, and decided to pick off first page posts? Whut?

- My post was directed at Voided regarding his plan, so in a way it did interact with someone.

- Read the thread. This whole claiming thing is the only thing we are talking about.

Again, I'm getting a "helpful" scum vibe.

- Elaborate my kind sir.

- I disagree. Read my previous posts why, but Voided was not exactly "hugely pushing" an anti-town idea. Even if he was, is this good enough of a reason to ACTUALLY vote for Voided without any other evidence? I understand voting for Voided based on this reason to put down pressure and squeeze more content out of the person, but this is not the vibe i am getting from this post, it sounds more like " this is a perfectly good enough of a reason to lynch Voided ". Perhaps you do mean it in the way i proposed, i don't know, i just disagree that Voided should be the prime target right now.

BEFORE ANYONE ASKS, no, i do not have a prime target in mind yet.

Why so afraid of being asked who you suspect?

That addition to your post feels like you want your posts to be made on your terms, not on the terms of others (who would be questioning you), which makes me think that for whatever reason you don't want to name a suspect. While "careful" play is not something I find inherently scummy (though I disagree with it), the gut read I've gotten from your posts coupled with this makes me suspicious of you.

- You have only pointed one of my posts that is connected to one of your gut reads, and that was a gut read on my second post of the game? So what gives, explain your gut a little bit more will you.

- I made that comment because i felt very sure that someone was going to ask me that question so i wanted to cover it before it was asked. I don't get what you mean by me making my posts on my own terms. That is not what i was thinking when making that posts, and it is instantly labeled as such because of one comment? I didn't want to name a suspect because i did not have a strong enough scum read at that time. This post doesn't seem like you are concerned about me not having a suspect, but more of my presentation of it, and this makes me think you are focusing on the wrong things.

I've gotta VOTE: Venmar. Even though the game has just seven pages, he's already prodded other players to post more three times (I find that scum tend to do this as a way to add an appearance of protowniness to their posts without actually adding content, and three times in seven pages is a bit ridiculous, especially given that the game's been open for four days.)

- Ok, i found three posts in my ISO that could possibly hint what you are talking about in this quote.

Post #54 - I did not prod Shotgun to post more in this post at all. Insteadi told him to reread the thread and he should get the answer to his "question".

Post #95 - Here i asked Voided to come in and share his thoughts. While i did kind of tell him to post, it was for a good reason. The discussion was heavily placed partly on him and his feedback seemed like a given.

Post #121 - This is true, i will give you that.

In addition to that, his earlier posts read a lot like trying to appease the Town and appear "helpful." It's also interesting to note how reluctant he was to vote voidedmafia and Scott Brosius in comparison to how quickly he voted 2birds1stone. Tbh, this is the best case so far.

- This is stupid. Why?

1. I never wanted to vote Voided. If you read the thread a little bit closely, you would see that I wasn't going against Voided, I war rather kind of defending him. I never showed interest in voting for him so i never actually hesistated to vote for someone i never want to vote for in the first place.

2. I already explained why i was hesitant to vote for Scott. I said I thought that what i brought up in-thread about him is and was not enough to vote or lynch him. I think i should have put a vote down to pressure the guy, but i never saw him as a scummy person but more of someone who was being unhelpful and mostly sheeping by just making empty posts saying " Yup ", or " I agree ".

3. I made a post regarding 2bird and i explained my case on him. Read that.

----------

Now, regarding MalaKitten and Day 2, i think that Mala could be town simply because of how quickly this wagon started off on her, and I suspect some scum manipulation or push behind this wagon is a very possible possibility. This doesn't necessarily make MalaKittens town, but it makes her less likely to be such because wagons on town seem to kickstart quicker than wagons on scum.

I will post more later, i need to get some food and i rest, i returned from my yesterdays trip not too long ago, so i plan on resting for a little bit. I will be back with more thoughts later on.

[Malakittens]

Well Delta, if Scott is so 'town as fuck' then instead of waiting for reasons from Dayne to why he is scummy why don't you tell us why he is town?

And Anon, how can you say that Mala is displaying good logic? I would like to some reasoning there.

And Mala, totally not game related, but do you know who/what DMZ is/are? Your name keeps reminding me of it.

Nope.

How the hell is Scott town as fuck? He's been sheeping on fucking cases and trying to keep his damn hand cleans. That's not being town, it's being scummy and safe.

Do you agree with SED's description of Brosius here?

I don't think Scott is town for different reasoning on my own, but some of which in a way overlaps with SED. I agree with some of SED's reasoning, but not all of it.

[Om of the Nom]

Well the general vibe I've been getting from Scott is town.
I might look into him further.

[ConfidAnon]

And Anon, how can you say that Mala is displaying good logic? I would like to some reasoning there.

I didn't say Mala was displaying good logic, I said it wasn't as terrible as people are making it out to be. It is definitely possible to get some scum reads based on a townie lynch Day 1, just by looking at how the votes skewed themselves. That being said, it's nowhere near as strong as VCA analysis with a scumflip, and it can lead to some dangerous assumptions by locking yourself in to potentially flawed assumptions like "wagon A must have x scum on it," but it's not an absolutely terrible system.

Even though it might not be the most productive play, there is merit to it, and I get the sense from Mala that she's trying to find scum with it.

COnfid Post 249: It hasn't happened yet because it won't.

Why not?

- Why are you digging up information from the first page? And how is this scummy? This was my first discussion related post of the game. Your reasoning behind this quote is total BS given the circumstances of my post. It looks to me like you are hunting for reasons to pin me as scum, and decided to pick off first page posts? Whut?

- My post was directed at Voided regarding his plan, so in a way it did interact with someone.

I replaced into the game. Should a player who replaces in ignore what happens on the first page simply because they weren't around when it happened? Whenever I replace in, I catch up. And if I find something scummy in what I'm catching up on, I'll point it out.

Please explain why my reasoning is "total BS." Also, by not mentioning names, in a way it attempted to not interact with players, and by extension not make waves, as much as it could have. But I'll admit, that's just a minor point, and is not as significant as the gut read that this post started. My most substantial reasonings are in the summary at the bottom of the post.

- Elaborate my kind sir.

Using helpful things (pointing out what other players need to read, prodding inactives, wiki links, explaining theory) to add volume to posts without adding game-specific content. I find that scum do this a lot, because they are more concerned with "seeming" town than town are.

- You have only pointed one of my posts that is connected to one of your gut reads, and that was a gut read on my second post of the game? So what gives, explain your gut a little bit more will you.

- I made that comment because i felt very sure that someone was going to ask me that question so i wanted to cover it before it was asked. I don't get what you mean by me making my posts on my own terms. That is not what i was thinking when making that posts, and it is instantly labeled as such because of one comment? I didn't want to name a suspect because i did not have a strong enough scum read at that time. This post doesn't seem like you are concerned about me not having a suspect, but more of my presentation of it, and this makes me think you are focusing on the wrong things.

My gut read is based on your collective posting. I can go through and analyze every single one of your posts, but I'm long-winded as it is, and I'd like to avoid clogging up the thread with walls of text.

You making that comment to avoid getting attacked for it is exactly what my point is about. By covering your bases with that before someone calls you out, you attempt to make it so that no one else can call you out on it (hence you addressing the point "on your own terms.") And presentation is important in Mafia as well as content. Mafia know that at some point in the game they have to push a suspicion they do not fully believe (because they know who is town). How you present your arguments determines how believable you are.

- This is stupid. Why?

1. I never wanted to vote Voided. If you read the thread a little bit closely, you would see that I wasn't going against Voided, I war rather kind of defending him. I never showed interest in voting for him so i never actually hesistated to vote for someone i never want to vote for in the first place.

2. I already explained why i was hesitant to vote for Scott. I said I thought that what i brought up in-thread about him is and was not enough to vote or lynch him. I think i should have put a vote down to pressure the guy, but i never saw him as a scummy person but more of someone who was being unhelpful and mostly sheeping by just making empty posts saying " Yup ", or " I agree ".

3. I made a post regarding 2bird and i explained my case on him. Read that.

I don't get a sense of you defending or attacking Voided from your posts, and the same thing with Scott Brosius. You talked about them, but you avoided giving an opinion on them either way. Contrast that with your one post on 2b1s leading to a vote. The discrepancy is telling. Scum can be afraid to give opinions because they don't want to have to go back on them later on in the thread. Even though I'm still not sold on the reasons 2b1s got lynched, it was arguably a "safer" stance to take than going strong either way on voided or Scott.

[absta101]

@Scott

Trying to lynch based on where you think scum could be on certain wagons is highly misguided. This looks like a scum attempt to attempt to clear buddies later if one of them flips claiming that there was probably only one scum on that wagon. Could just be poor town logic though.

If your theory relies solely on two people being scum, with no scum flip, it's very unreliable.
This theory is poor town logic. Have you ever seen scum defend in this way before? The defence that you describe here looks like a last second situation defence. There was no indication that one of "Mala's partners" were in danger.

The most recent post (213) has me definitely leaning scum, the excuses for not voting and generally weak reads as Om mentioned.

So you are voting Mala because she won't vote until she has a strong scum read? Why is that more scummy than town?

EDIT: Now it's not the most recent post. Still like this wagon.

What about the recent post stood out as scummy to you?
--

Guess after an hour passes its no longer "too early in the day to vote" eh? Let the

flailing

begin.

Sigh* If only Psyche were here.
VOTE: Scott
Frankly, your reasons for putting Mala at L-2 are very poor.

[IceGuy]

Chainsaw defense ahoy.

Is there any indication why you consider Mala town?

[DeltaWave]

Well Delta, if Scott is so 'town as fuck' then instead of waiting for reasons from Dayne to why he is scummy why don't you tell us why he is town?

I'll get to that eventually.

Still waiting on SAD.

Post 258 sucks.

Venmar is still iffy.

Om is totally under the radar right now and I want to hear his opinions on the Mala wagon.

[absta101]

Chainsaw defense ahoy.

Is there any indication why you consider Mala town?

Calling chainsaw defence without a flip. Nice attempt at making me look bad.
1. The Mala waggon grew way too fast.
2. The lack of good reasons for votes.

I see post #199 as harmless town speculation. What do you see?

[Scott Brosius]

Wtf, scum killed Yoshi. He had like 1 post.

This is such a town comment. It's hard to fake this kind of ignorance as scum this far into Day 2.

@Scott

Trying to lynch based on where you think scum could be on certain wagons is highly misguided. This looks like a scum attempt to attempt to clear buddies later if one of them flips claiming that there was probably only one scum on that wagon. Could just be poor town logic though.

If your theory relies solely on two people being scum, with no scum flip, it's very unreliable.
This theory is poor town logic. Have you ever seen scum defend in this way before? The defence that you describe here looks like a last second situation defence. There was no indication that one of "Mala's partners" were in danger.

The most recent post (213) has me definitely leaning scum, the excuses for not voting and generally weak reads as Om mentioned.

So you are voting Mala because she won't vote until she has a strong scum read? Why is that more scummy than town?

EDIT: Now it's not the most recent post. Still like this wagon.

What about the recent post stood out as scummy to you?
--

Guess after an hour passes its no longer "too early in the day to vote" eh? Let the

flailing

begin.

Sigh* If only Psyche were here.
VOTE: Scott
Frankly, your reasons for putting Mala at L-2 are very poor.

I'm voting due to contrived scumhunting methods, and lack of stances on anyone (I guess besides me at this point). What opinions did Mala have before me? Went out of his way to announce a null tell on you. Then listed a lot of "x but y" wishy-washyness. Said it was too early to place a vote, then angrily places a vote an hour later. The announcing of one's own townmeta also reads scummy.

You didn't really answer Ice's question directly, do you think mala is town?

Well Delta, if Scott is so 'town as fuck' then instead of waiting for reasons from Dayne to why he is scummy why don't you tell us why he is town?

And Anon, how can you say that Mala is displaying good logic? I would like to some reasoning there.

And Mala, totally not game related, but do you know who/what DMZ is/are? Your name keeps reminding me of it.

Nope.

How the hell is Scott town as fuck? He's been sheeping on fucking cases and trying to keep his damn hand cleans. That's not being town, it's being scummy and safe.

Do you agree with SED's description of Brosius here?

I don't think Scott is town for different reasoning on my own, but some of which in a way overlaps with SED. I agree with some of SED's reasoning, but not all of it.

SO I GUESS YOU ARE SHEEPING SED LOLOLOL! You see how stupid any case based on "sheeping" is? Anyone that agrees with anyone is instantly scummy!

[Malakittens]

How the hell am I sheeping SED? I said I agree with PART of his comments, NOT ALL of them. That's in no way or form sheeping.

[IceGuy]

Calling chainsaw defence without a flip. Nice attempt at making me look bad.

Don't worry - you don't need me to look bad.

1. The Mala waggon grew way too fast.
2. The lack of good reasons for votes.

And...that's it?

I see post #199 as harmless town speculation. What do you see?

I see a very newbscummy post.

[absta101]

@Scott

So basically you chose not to answer any of my questions. My vote seems to be in the right place.

I'm voting due to contrived scumhunting methods, and lack of stances on anyone (I guess besides me at this point)

You're voting her because she "has no reads" on anyone yet you admit she has a read on you.
Your first point doesn't mean anything until you show us where her scumhunting seemed contrived.
--

Anyone that agrees with anyone is instantly scummy!

Are you proving a point or do you actually believe this?
--

You didn't really answer Ice's question directly, do you think mala is town?

I suggest you read his question again. He asks why I consider her town, not, "do you think Mala is town".
----

@Iceguy

And...that's it?

It's enough.

[Scott Brosius]

@Scott

So basically you chose not to answer any of my questions. My vote seems to be in the right place.

I'm voting due to contrived scumhunting methods, and lack of stances on anyone (I guess besides me at this point)

You're voting her because she "has no reads" on anyone yet you admit she has a read on you.
Your first point doesn't mean anything until you show us where her scumhunting seemed contrived.
--

Anyone that agrees with anyone is instantly scummy!

Are you proving a point or do you actually believe this?
--

You didn't really answer Ice's question directly, do you think mala is town?

I suggest you read his question again. He asks why I consider her town, not, "do you think Mala is town".
----

@Iceguy

And...that's it?

It's enough.

I will clarify. She had no opinion or fence-sitting opinions on everyone until a wagon built on her. Anyone can be forced into having reads when a wagon pops up on them, this epitomized by her staunch opinion against it being too early to vote, then voting an hour later.

I'm saying that everyone labels everything as sheeping and it is the lamest/most useless base for a case since it basically says agreement is scummy.

The wagon hunting/theory is completely contrived. There is no way of knowing (outside of general probability) that Group X has # scum. It's a misleading way to scumhunt and it can conveniently and falsely clear people later.

Then I will rephrase: DO YOU THINK MALA IS TOWN?

How the hell am I sheeping SED? I said I agree with PART of his comments, NOT ALL of them. That's in no way or form sheeping.

So what don't you agree with about them? Because your case on me is "sheeping" and that's about the gist of what he says too.

[Malakittens]

Um what was post #140 of mine then? Those were my thoughts at the time, but I didn't have anything to built a solid case against.

As for sheeping. Mainly when I mean the term sheeping it's when you just either pop onto a wagon with little or no explanation for doing it. Also I would consider a half-assed reason to also be considered a scum move.

[DeltaWave]

I just want to say that it's awesome how I mistakenly abbreviated Dayne's name as "SED" once, and then everyone has kept up with it since

[Om of the Nom]

@Delta: I support the Mala wagon.

Also I was waiting for someone to point out me flying under the radar. It's hilarious how I've been saying little and nobody's been noticing.
Damnit, someone pressure me so I have some motivation to do stuff.

[DeltaWave]

@Delta: I support the Mala wagon.

Also I was waiting for someone to point out me flying under the radar. It's hilarious how I've been saying little and nobody's been noticing.
Damnit, someone pressure me so I have some motivation to do stuff.

Has your read progressed past the "gut" stage?

[Om of the Nom]

Kinda, I haven't really been paying attention to exactly what she's saying, but I could probably make a case if I could be bothered to.

[DeltaWave]

Kinda

,

I haven't really been paying attention to exactly what she's saying

, but I could probably make a case if I could be bothered to.

How is it possible for the thing in bold and the underlined thing to be in the same sentence

[Om of the Nom]

Because "haven't really" doesn't mean "not paying attention at all lol."

[DeltaWave]

eh okay, i see that

please read over mala and give me your input