A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Dolorous Edd]

(Also, everyone should reevaluate/recheck their read on Regfan. I got bad vibes from his ISO. I think because he came into the game strongly, people assumed right away he’s town [me included]. Seems like his posts of summaries/reads on a lot of players strike me of what I tend to do as scum (see example). OTOH, I’m not familiar with Regfan-meta too much, so I’m not sure if he tends to do this as town.)

[SnowStorm]

I think this also explains why I haven't "contributed" much and my lack of suspects. I don't think there's a single subject that hasn't been touched by meta and I can't evaluate anything that is related to meta from a player I'm not familiar with.

Are you saying you plan to be this unhelpful

all game

?

~ Pless

No, it means I'll be able to read them better once there's more than meta to work with, like a lynch...

On a different note,

I think D.Edd is town. Alek's posts seem to fit his usual town play. His town read on me had some weight in this, I don't think he'd just throw it out like that if he was scum.

I have a weaker town read on Hyperion. I'm not a big fan of his posts, but his play this game reminds me his play in a recent Westeros mini (93.5), where he was town and got mislynched.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mastermind of Sin

, I explained what bothered me about Tierce already. Look up my answer yourself. Since I only mentioned one issue, you can enlighten us on the others (as can Cow, while he's at it). However, that was pretty much the

only

thing that bothered me about Tierce--the rest of her play felt very protown. I can buy her explanation, so you voting and choosing her solely because Cow said he didn't like that post looks lazy and disingenuous.

You'd better quote it then, because I never saw it and I checked your ISO before I made my post earlier.

I thought this was pretty obvious. Then again, not that surprising that Tammy can't understand basic implications when she's trying really hard to paint someone as scummy.

Are you saying you have a scum read on Tammy? Do you believe that one quote in which she misinterpreted the word overwhelmed (which was a characterization of his play in a

completely different game

) is even remotely alignment-relevant?

Nope, that was just me being a dick to Tammy. Sorry about that.

[Eddard Stark]

Alleras, known as The Sphinx, is a novice studying at the Citadel in Oldtown. He was nicknamed the Sphinx by Leo Tyrell. His mother is a trader and he claims to not be a noble's son. Interestingly enough, Alleras is Sarella spelled backwards. Sarella Sand is one of the Sand Snakes of Dorne, and looks

very like

Alleras. Curious!

Day 1, Votecount 18

MagnaofIllusion (1) - Shadow1psc
Starbuck (2) - Feysal, redFF
SnowStorm (3) - Plessiezarus, Regfan, Tyene Sand

Minimum (6) - MagnaofIllusion, Salamence20, Hasdgfas, Lyanna Stark, StefanB, Benmage

Benmage (1) - SnowStorm
Salamence20 (2) - Amrun, Minimum
Feysal (1) - Starbuck
BBmolla (1) - Hyperion
Dolorous Edd (1) - Jal
Tyene Sand (1) Mastermind of Sin
Hyperion (5) - Pandora, BBmolla, Staeg, Plum's Yo Mamma, Dolorous Edd

Not Voting (4):

Mockingjaye, Petyr Baelish, Bvoigt, sword_of_omens

With 28 alive it takes 15 to lynch.

• Deadline
  : 3rd September at 11:59pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)
  
• Countdown to deadline
  : (expired on 2012-09-03 18:59:59)
  
• redFF is V/la until Friday.

CHOOSE TO OINK LIKE A PIG

Tyene Sand (2) - Feysal, Mastermind of Sin
Dolorous Edd (2) - hasdgfas, Hyperion
Feysal (2) - Dolorous Edd, Salamence20
Hasdgfas (1) - Shadow1psc

Minimum (3) - Regfan, Tyene Sand, Plum's Yo Mamma

Starbuck (2) - Starbuck, Staeg

redFF (3) - Benmage, Minimum, Pandora

Shadow1psc (3) - BBmolla, StefanB, MagnaofIllusion

Not Choosing (10):

Lyanna Stark, Mockingjaye, Petyr Baelish, redFF, Amrun, Bvoigt, Plessiezarus, SnowStorm, Jal, Sword_of_omens

With 28 alive it takes 15 to 'Choose'.

[Dolorous Edd]

But I do believe that Arthur is right in that Pless you seem to be more agressive and

like to force your opinions on others

, but I havnt seen you as evil yet so I can't rely on that

Ah, Alek put it in much much better words than I could’ve said.

(This, and post 500 are by yours truly The Sword of the Morning (That’s Ser Arthur Dayne for those who don’t know - I mean, this is a ASOIAF game <_<)

[SnowStorm]

Edd, what do both of you think of Minimum?

[sword_of_omens]

sorry guys..work had to fly me out of town for an emergency..
i fly back in tomorrow morning...
i'll be postin' then...

[Feysal]

Still behind, no news there, but at least I'm not falling any farther behind.

As I was reading Tammy's #423 I was thinking of how a common scum symptom is difficulty in finding suspects. I did not like SnowStorm's #360 either, in particular the joke about unvoting being boring because it did not allow for that kind of situation was bad. Situation like what? I was reminded of Mikujin way back in Storm of Swords, and how he was never able to form any suspicions during his time in the game. SnowStorm is starting to look suspect in the same way.

The same applies to Shadow1psc too, though in his case his posts describing why he is not pushing any cases sound plausible.

About redFF, I'm not seeing what is so suspicious about him. Granted, after Final Fantasy VI I don't know how hideous he would be when he actually is scum. His day one play in that game was completely irrational, and on top of that he missed sending his night action. After seeing that I'm not keen on labeling him as suspicious, but at the same time I don't really want to keep him around.

I'm reading SnowStorm as scum, but I want to interject here a bit because it makes sense to me why he wouldn't. At Westeros, we always play behind alts. There are very very few times we play altless. We also have quite strict meta rules. We can't out another person's alt or our own. Sure, we have codes and things to get around some of the rules when we have meta reasons for why we read people the way we do, but we can't use that as part of our cases or arguments at all.

With all the talk of meta from Westeros games I felt like I was missing out on something, but apparently not. If that is how mafia is played there, I will never set foot in the place.

UNVOTE: Starbuck
VOTE: SnowStorm

I'm no more fond of Starbuck than before, but she is also not doing anything.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm reading SnowStorm as scum, but I want to interject here a bit because it makes sense to me why he wouldn't. At Westeros, we always play behind alts. There are very very few times we play altless. We also have quite strict meta rules. We can't out another person's alt or our own. Sure, we have codes and things to get around some of the rules when we have meta reasons for why we read people the way we do, but we can't use that as part of our cases or arguments at all.

With all the talk of meta from Westeros games I felt like I was missing out on something, but apparently not. If that is how mafia is played there, I will never set foot in the place.

Well it definitely isn't for everyone. Our games are extremely fast paced, with 32 hour days and 2-8 hour nights and games last about a week. Last week day one produced 35 pages of content in a 32 hour day. It's pretty demanding but provides a different skill set of sorts, maybe. We might privately know, by meta, why people are their alignment but the rules force us to focus on the behavior publicly, for the most part. Their are pros and cons to both, but it works for us. It's how I learned to play, so I like it.

Feysal - You said you have a town read of Magna mostly because he's making sense and not being as confrontational. You're not the least bit paranoid about him?

[Benmage]

Too burnt out today... I'll make sure I find time soon.

[bvoigt]

Time for a stream of 1-liners: I don't like Salamence's lack of content through #174. I know he said he was busy replacing into another game, but he seemed to be reading along. I think he would've had time for more than those 3 sheepy posts.

I don't understand how everyone is so sure that scum would shoot another scum. It's being said like it is fact and that it will definitely happen that way. I don't believe it will, so while my opinion on it is unpopular (look at all the people who have hopped on my bandwagon to prove that point), I don't believe that it is wrong or scummy.

This post has already been torn to shreds by others, but it serves to highlight how Starbuck does not seem to be reading the same game we are. I cannot trace her thoughts at all, and I don't understand how anyone could have a town read on her.

She has seemed confused so far, but you seem to be implying that it's a scumtell. That doesn't make sense to me.

I think Benmage is town. hasdgfas too.

Sala's catchup was pretty scummy IMO. Lots of quotes, lots of asking people to explain their votes on him, not much in the way of actual scumhunting. Also, this quote is really bad:

Meanwhile, I'll be waiting for BB's reasoning of Sal obvscum.

UNVOTE: Salamence20
VOTE: Minimum

I'm going to take this as an OMGUS vote if you can't explain it. Or maybe you can tell me why Minimum is the better lynch canidate now?

I don't agree with the reasoning behind Hyperion's vote in #298, but it reads as town.

Does MoS always play like this?

SnowStorm it must suck to come to MS and have your first role pm be scum. So, Benmage looks town to you does he? *glances up at vote count* Can you explain why you're still voting him then?

Is everyone pretty much null to you SnowStorm? Not one person you want to vote for and press

besides the one you just called town

? None?

This is a good point.

Pandora looks town in #343. Well, I'm through page 14.

[Regfan]

I'll devote some time later tonight to parse over Minimums posts and reads list. Will also take another look over SnowStorm too then.

Pless, Hyperions game on-site here isn't that old at all, in fact it's relatively recent and I don't think his D1 play in Fringe was bad at all, I liked it and don't see any similarity there to here so not understanding how you find it the same.

Edd, here's a bunch of my previous town games if you want to take a quick skim later; Good vs Evil, Newbie 1259, Newbie 1256 (Original), Behind the Maiden (As a hydra called Duplicity, was third party but played for the town), Open 418 (As a hydra called Soben) and Strategy Mafia.

If you believe play is optimal town play, you will say that regardless of alignment. I have some weird thoughts on things(like people who claim scum are more likely scum) that other people don't agree with, but I still push it regardless of alignment when I see it. That's where my desire for shadow to die comes from, to answer that question and also reply to your town read on him for what I believe to be a null tell.

I don't fully agree, there's some things that I think are optimal play that I'll avoid discussing as scum even if the situation arises because I think discussing it would garner attention which is something I'd be avoiding at the time, and sure Shadow was getting some attention but I think his scum play here would be a lot less 'lets jump in and do something that'll get me attention' and more him trying to hide into the pool of lurkers. Not going to argue over this too much though, especially if you're willing to take more of an ear to my Edd town-read instead because I'm far more confident in that one.

[Lyanna Stark]

BB - You "played" in the Fringe game right? Did you see Hyperion vote me because I suggested a policy lynch on someone as a very obvious joke early day one? He was the one who gave me a flow chart of scumminess when I asked him about it.

Nope. I didn't.

(I wouldn't really call myself playing as much as throwing it. )

Does he have a history of skimming posts too?

That was why I used the scare quotes . He doesn't so much have a history of skimming posts so much as sometimes latching onto odd things to find them scummy with a conviction that's kind of off. The alts have changed and I'm too lazy to hunt down his attempt at scum before Mina replaced him, but I think more than one post is needed to determine whether or not he's scum or he's just acting like he normally does.

Liked

Edd

's earlier posts, didn't like his attack on Starbuck, and have kind of skimmed over his later posts, so it's tempting to take the Westeros crew's word that he's playing like town Arthur (I don't think I'm as familiar with Ser-Arthur's meta as everyone else is).

While I thought (and think) that Arthur's first posts are very much in line with his play as town in previous (Westeros) games, I'd note that he's only been evil once (as far as I can remember?). Some of his (and Alek's) later posts have struck me the wrong way.
Pless

He's been evil now three times as he's played it twice here. Here's a link to his most recent scum game that I know of. We were lover partners in this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4251258

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hyperion

I'd like some reasons for this vote, please. Oh, if it's Alek who voted, please make sure it's Alek who gives the reasons, Thanks. Also, Alek, I'm waiting on you to finish explaining to me why Pandora is scummy for defending the Feysal multiball comment when others have defended it as well.

I'm reading SnowStorm as scum, but I want to interject here a bit because it makes sense to me why he wouldn't. At Westeros, we always play behind alts. There are very very few times we play altless. We also have quite strict meta rules. We can't out another person's alt or our own. Sure, we have codes and things to get around some of the rules when we have meta reasons for why we read people the way we do, but we can't use that as part of our cases or arguments at all. You know how people go, "In GvE, you behaved this way, so I believe xyz here?" We can't do that there. So, because we are accustomed to play without meta - and our hilariously bad altguesses of each other has hindered games in the past - it makes perfect sense why SnowStorm wouldn't want to read any past games to get an unobjective PoV because that's how we're conditioned to play this game.

Uhh... Snowstorm definitely did not give me this impression when he said

The idea I have of Mina's town play is that I usually agree with her and get early town reads on her, which hasn't happened in this game, though I don't think she has posted much? As for CES, I don't really know how to read him and the freshest memory I have of his play is when he managed to survive a whole game as scum without doing anything but voting without reason. So, I'm kinda worried about them, I'd like to see more from Mina.

Yes, Mina and CES play at Westeros - well CES has played a couple - and he has also played scumchat games with them, so he already has an idea of how he views them as players. Having experience with someone because you've played with them and know their style is very different from researching people's meta by reading games you have no involvement with.

Dolorous Edd

Why do you have a weak scum read on Plessiezarus? Also, why is SnowStorm null. (obv I'm asking the Arthur head on that.)

They mostly seem like they are snipping from the sidelines and nitpicking here and there to look like they are contributing and staying active, but at the same time they are really not taking strong stances nor expressing strong opinions. Pless is always more of an attacker as town, and I don't remember Zar being this much middle-of-the-roadish either.

Okay. Why is SnowStorm null? I don't agree with either of your assessments of Pless or Zar. I just iso'd them both, and while I agree that Zar is hard to get a read on early game because he tends to hold his reads and watch, I'm not finding him being middle-of-the-roadish or engaging in the behaviors that I typically associate with Zarscum. I don't know that you can say Pless is

always

anything either, as he played differently in the two most recent games we all played in together. One he attacked and questioned a lot but the other he did a lot of sitting back and commenting on a variety of things.

Edd, give an example of a post where it feels like they're "sniping from the sidelines."

Spoiler:

I haven't had a chance to discuss my impressions yet with Pless, so this content is 100% Zar. I'm agreeing with Regfan on Molla looking townish, especially based on his early entrance.

Dolorous Edd is a Hydra composed of two Westerosi players known to be somewhat batshit, so the explosion of chaotic reasoning coming from them does not seem scummy to me. Especially after just reading #73 and realizing all of the content has been coming from Arthur.

Regfan's contribution to the discussion feels more likely to come from a town mindset. While logical =/= town, Regfan's post does seem contrived or grasping for things that aren't there.

@shadoweh: As much as I'm annoyed at SB for doing what she did, her logic doesn't really strike me as coming from scum. Sure, I get the 1 - 1 trade-off that has been explained in thread, but I empathize on how a town-aligned player would think this could be a idea, as it was also my reaction when it was proposed.


~Zar.

While on the subject – what is your read on Minimum and why is it that?

Hmm. Our take on Minimum is a bit confused. I can't read CES at all, personally. But Zar tells me that he thinks CES fits his scum-meta better than his town-meta at the moment. In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards). We'd both have a better take on that slot if Mina was posting more. We think.

(Lyanna, I think it was us who speculated that Minimum was mostly/entirely CES. Mina was pretty good at signing her posts when she was a hydra in SOS -- plus, of course, Minimum's posts so far have been pretty short...).

No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.

Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?

~ Pless

SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games.

Why?

I don't really think you're asking me this because you want to hear an answer, for some reason . But if you really do need it spelled out, then: SnowStorm comes from a site where policy lynches are frowned on (or at least nobody admits to pushing them). This would make his vote for Benmage somewhat understandable, given the post he responds to. If he'd claimed to have read previous games, however, he would presumably know not to be surprised by it (and that first post would be harder for him to justify).

CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke.

The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight.

I got it. It was

annoying and unhelpful

very droll.

@Dolorous Edd

: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.

[...]

I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer? Did you just pick some names to underline at random so you could be seen to be active and scumhunting and stuff?

Get Alek to answer that, if you can, he's a better liar than you.

(Oh, and good luck with your move to college .)

~ Pless

I have a growing pool of strong town reads right now, very confident that on top of Pandora, Tyene and Ed [...]

We're a bit confused about why you have a strong town-read on Tyene . You seem to have decided on this pretty quickly; have recent posts reinforced this impression, or was your initial town-read just that strong to begin with?

(Also, Hyperion is GreatJim on the Westeros site, right? Don't really understand the meta-based scum read on him, if that's the case.)

I tottally agree with Zar though I am batshit, but don't listen to plessie i am a very bad liar

I never suggested you were a good liar, only that you were better at it than Arthur ...

(But that was mostly an attempt to goad you into posting, of course.)

Oh Alek. You're not really doing anything for the town read I gave to Arthur.

This was my gut reaction also.

Aaand the major hydra dissonance just showed that Edd is (are?) town (again).

Can't say I agree with this. The hydra dissonance displayed by Pandora earlier seemed very natural; that's a town-tell, sure. But the Alek/Arthur dissonance? Meh.

It would also be nice if hydra were to sign their posts.

I assume that Edd's most recent post is Arthur again?

~ Pless

Could you expand on how you view any of that as sniping from the sidelines?

Why would anyone suspect this to be multiball? The last Game of Thrones mafia wasn't. Scumslips are still stupid and never work, the people most likely to mention the dreaded M-Word first seem to be town not worried about tripping the wire. I consider this a double lynch that gives the second suspect a vengekill.

Vote: Dolorous Edd

Choose: Minimum

PS: Maybe he wanted it secret when he was just alting but I had no intention of being a secret hydra. SORRY QUILLY. He was like hey we never do anything together anymore wanna hydra and I was like okay and he was like how about this game of thrones game and I was like but Tierce isn't in it and then it turned out she was in it so Yay! The end. I will not remember to sign posts but I like to think I'm distinctive right?

@ Plezz/Zar

This is the post that makies me uneasy...

His first post in the game he come right out and attacks arthur over the multiball issue...

His first paragraph feels forced and defenisve, even though he wasn't even being attacked..Also notice the use of "Scum slips are useless and never work?"

I have seen them work before and I believe as scum they would want to push that idea so people would be less confidant..

But if scum slips don;t work, How do town slips work? it is a two way street, I don;t see how you can have one without the other..

Nut this whole post felt off too me

You suspect Pandora for talking about the uselessness of scum slips? This is probably a stance that he takes regardless of alignment; in fact, it's a stance that I take. The majority of things that people go aha scum slip over are usually nothing more than human slips and get people mislynched far more often than not.

Let's put this multiball "scumslip" thing in perspective. A few weeks ago we played in a game together in which I belonged to one of the scum factions. Now I believed until day 6 that there were two scum factions. After the three kills is when I learned there were actually three factions. Faraday's team learned on day 3 that there were three factions, and I think Mina's team learned on day 4. None of the members of either of their teams so much as speculated that there was a third team because to do so would have outed them, so they were careful not to.

If Feysal were scum, he would be more likely to be careful in the first few posts of the game to not speculate on something that he had inside knowledge of. That he talked about the possibility of multiball doesn't mean he for sure slipped as scum. And people who are claiming that it's bs that people are calling it a scum slip don't have to be scum either.

Town slips have to be put into perspective as well. When you thought Faraday had an innocent on you when you believed he was a cop, that was a genuine town slip that spoke to your confusion and it was natural. But, people make fake town slips as scum all the time.

Plssie/Zar,

obviously you short term memory is wacky

has I just played a game with Regfan in Westeros so yes IU have and I believe his confidence here is different then then..

Defintly feels genuine and town too me so far..

I got too go so I will finish reading later

Remember when I said you were going a long way to destroy the town vibes Arthur was giving your hydra? Yeah, you keep knocking off town notches. I don't know if it's because you're getting cocky because you finally won a scum game or you just think that insulting people for no reason makes you look town, but either way you might want to rethink your approach.

[Lyanna Stark]

I
Pless, Hyperions game on-site here isn't that old at all, in fact it's relatively recent and I don't think his D1 play in Fringe was bad at all, I liked it and don't see any similarity there to here so not understanding how you find it the same.

Oh yeah, this is right. He disagreed with me when I was reading him as scum due to his early day one play.

[mockingjaye]

I apologize for how long it has taken me to get a proper post in here. I’ve not played at all since AFFC, and it has taken me a while to sort through what's what and who's who and get back in the groove.

First:

I disagree that Starbuck’s self-choose was a super-town tell, mainly because of the timing. There wasn’t that much pressure on her at the time and it seems superfluous to defend her stance with a self-nom, especially given that the move comes across as entirely defensive.

Also,

when she

first

brings up the preference for a town-suicide vig, she says nothing about preferring that townie to be a VT; instead, her position evolves over time, and therefore, her overall explanation of her preference comes across as less genuine and more crafted in response to ongoing criticism.

So, Starbuck, I have a few questions: 1) Why did you self-nom when you did; 2) Why did you subsequently claim when you did; 3) What do you think of the other early self-nominations (MoI and Ben)? 4) With seven votes on the wagon, a few hours into D1 when not everyone had even begun contributing, were you really that worried about getting lynched? And, 5) this is the VC in Post 77, made immediately after you claimed VT.

Starbuck (7) - Dolorous Edd, Tyene Sand Staeg, Minimum, Plum's Yo Mamma, Feysal, redFF

Do you think it is town or scum-driven, and what do you think about the individual people on it?

Second:

Mina’s Post 323 lauds SB’s decision to self-nom as being “genuine” but attacks MoI’s as having “come out of nowhere”; I completely disagree. While MoI’s self-nom isn’t necessarily a town tell, it was A) his introductory post; and B) he didn’t make it under pressure or in the midst of a discussion where he was being hammered for his stance or confusion like SB did. It’s SB’s self-nom that I think really came out of nowhere, so what exactly made SB's self-nom look so much more genuine to you? Please don't dismiss this question as merely "implying that it's absurd that I [Mina] could entertain the notion that MoI's self-Choose wasn't pure of heart" Post 461.

Also, this:

(I found Benmage's self-Choose less suspicious since "I'll singlehandedly take out the scum!" arrogance is in character for him, but didn't see the harm in asking him while I was at it.)"

Because you don’t think similar arrogance is in character for MoI? Granted, you did ask Ben if he were really okay with dying N1 in Post 37, but you never really followed up on it with him; the next time you mention even really bring it up is here in Post 323.

I really don't like that you basically gave passes to the other self-noms but insisted that MoI's is most likely a grab for town-cred, even going so far as to misrep him a bit (saying he said he was conf-town for making the self-nom). When you finally back down on that point after MoI calls you out about all of this, you say

Believe it or not, I asked you why you self-Chose because I wanted to know why you self-Chose. I wasn't convinced it was a scumtell by any means. It might have been an emo "everyone hates me!" self-Choose. It might have been reaction-fishing. It might have been an attempt to diffuse the momentum against you by doing something to win town cred.

And again, I completely disagree with you. MoI self-voted on the second page of the game; the few RVS votes on/choices of him weren't anything serious and there was hardly any real momentum to be diffused. Also, I don't think MoI is ever emo about anything, so suggesting he would self-vote for such a reason is really a stretch. I can buy that you wanted to know why he was self-choosing, but I won't buy that you really believed it was either of those reasons.

The next thing I don't like is that in Post 335 you make a case against Sala, and one of your reasons is that he is too concerned about how he looks and what people think of him; however, not much later, in Post 358, you pretty much do the same thing by quizzing people about their votes on/choices of you.

You also tell him that "Upon an ISO, your one big catch-up post that made BBmolla trust you was decent in isolation, but the kind of content that's easy to fake, so I'm not letting you off the hook yet"; but just twelve posts before that, in Post 323, you acknowledge that people might think you're scummy because "I [Mina] don't think we've [Minimum] written anything that couldn't have been faked as scum up to this point." >.>

Next:

That said, I suspect that my question to Mastermind of Sin will be a lot more useful (well, to me, anyway) than yet another wall full of my wishy-washy and probably incorrect thoughts.)

These kinds of self-deprecating comments also don't ever feel very genuine to me; instead they read more like "Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain!"

Finally, what's with the sudden need to withhold a read on Nacho/Plum after you've just skated down the list of active players voicing your opinions? (Post 455, Post 461, Post 474). You don't have to tell me your read if you don't want, but what's the motivation for withholding?

Third:

Hyperion’s “placeholding” Quote Wall would have been better served being saved as a draft; posting it looks like he just wanted to get something that looked like there might be thought and substance behind it on the board before too much more of the game went by him. Also, I think it’s reeeally reaching to go to the sign-up thread and find a post made before anyone had role pms and use it to justify an attack.

It looks like you are already suggesting multiball, but then attack Feysal for suggesting ti [

sic

].

For more in the "I'm just trying to say stuff to look town category," in Post 298, you respond to Posts 48-47, and you basically respond to a question Feysal put to Dolorous Edd; yet, in this very same post, immediately above that, you attack Dolorous Edd for responding to a question Benmage put to Minimum. Finally, and this point has already been made, your vote for BBMolla is also contrived; by the time he was posting the quote you attacked him for, it was clear what he was doing which just comes across as more filler.

Fourth:

Shadow: His snarky play reminds me very much of the last game, when he was scum. In fact, the first thing I said about him in AFFC was

Shadow's hyper-defensiveness and his seething anger for anyone who questions or attacks him is more of a problem for me....

and I’m feeling the same vibe this time. I also completely disagree that it’s too early in the game to do effective scumhunting, and I don’t like that he’s falling back on being snide without furthering the discussion and trying to find scum, which is similar to what he did in AFFC; at one point on D1, when pressed for specific reads, basically said everyone was null, everyone was scum, and a few posts later, as an afterthought, he was town.

To be fair, the one overt difference in his play then and his play now is that in AFFC, he pretty much hounded Empking constantly during D1 and was more belligerent and antagonistic towards anyone who confronted him, which is how he started off in this game, though now he has backed off that somewhat. That's not quite enough for me given his history, though; I don't trust that he hasn't just learned from the past and/or that someone might be telling him to tone it down.

Also Shadow, it’s kind of funny that you include AFFC in your list of past games where you tried to be helpful (Post 473 because you were super-scum there. Too bad the tigers ate most of that game because then the newer people could go check it out to get a good helping of Scum-Shadow (and MoI too, for that matter).

Prev. Edit:

Regfan: I absolutely disagree with you on Shadow; given that he was pretty active while he was in AFFC (on like, the longest D1 ever, with many V/LAs and delays and what-have-yous), I don't think he would try to get by as a lurker at all. He drew a lot of attention to himself in that game and was as prickly as a pear about everything.

At last.

I'm not done, but I'm taking a break for now. I was going to put Dolorous Edd in this post, too, but his ISO is long and his heads are many, and furthermore, I need sleep. There are a couple of more people I also want to discuss, and I'm still working out whom I want to lynch vs. whom I want to choose. I will try to have more some time tomorrow, but it may take me until Saturday.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay First thing what does V/LA mean excatly, I assume somthing about not being able to play much as both Arthur and Hyperion have used that same thin in reference to leaving..

@Pless

I can;t explain Aruthur's vote for Hyperion mainly becuse I disagree with it as he is null for me and with 5 posts not really much to go on i say

But I do know he feels that Hyperion is scummy for sotmhong i think :\

Also, Lyanna/ Tammy is right she does get me lynched alot so she is a good judge of meta on me..

Also, I say that I have not read another of Refgan's other games but the one I have played with him feels different to me, totally looks genuie, if you don;t believe meta then call it a gut feeling as that might describe it better..

As for you, I haven't played with Zar much as he mods just about every game On Westeros..

But I do believe that Arthur is right in that Pless you seem to be more agressive and like to force your opinions on others, but I havnt seen you as evil yet so I can't rely on that

@MoI What where your questions and who were they for Alek or Arthur?

This feels more genuine.

(Also, everyone should reevaluate/recheck their read on Regfan. I got bad vibes from his ISO. I think because he came into the game strongly, people assumed right away he’s town [me included]. Seems like his posts of summaries/reads on a lot of players strike me of what I tend to do as scum (see example). OTOH, I’m not familiar with Regfan-meta too much, so I’m not sure if he tends to do this as town.)

Did you get a bad feeling of Regfan because people were pressing your hydra about it? Regfan's meta is actually to give detailed reads of people, so this isn't actually out of the ordinary for him. However, he is actually good at scum, though he hates it. But, giving a list of his reads isn't a scum tell for Regfan at all.

[Lyanna Stark]

Nope, that was just me being a dick to Tammy. Sorry about that.

You're a scholar and a gentleman.

[Plessiezarus]

Also, everyone should reevaluate/recheck their read on Regfan. I got bad vibes from his ISO. I think because he came into the game strongly, people assumed right away he’s town [me included]. Seems like his posts of summaries/reads on a lot of players strike me of what I tend to do as scum

Er. Right, so:

1) Regfan's early posts made you assume he was town.

2) When you read him in iso, you decided he was suspicious, because...

3) Posting summaries and reads of lots of players is something you tend to do as scum.

Since I actually

have

reread Regfan recently, I'm finding this a bit hard to swallow. His very first post -- one of the posts that made you assume he was town -- is a big summary/read of lots of players. But apparently you find this sort of post suspicious .

Does MoS always play like this?

This is a good question. I'm sure I remember MoS from one of the earlier Eddard Stark modded games (Feast?) and this isn't how he seemed to play then .

Pless, Hyperions game on-site here isn't that old at all, in fact it's relatively recent

I didn't say it was old. I mean, I didn't skim

that

much. It was still a newbie game though, and I'm not sure why we should give it more weight than recent big games. (I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree about Hyperion's day 1 play in the Fringe game, which I didn't think was good at all.)

While I thought (and think) that Arthur's first posts are very much in line with his play as town in previous (Westeros) games, I'd note that he's only been evil once (as far as I can remember?). Some of his (and Alek's) later posts have struck me the wrong way.
Pless

He's been evil now three times as he's played it twice here. Here's a link to his most recent scum game that I know of. We were lover partners in this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4251258

Right, I just meant "at Westeros". Thanks for the link - I'll look over it later today.

I don't know that you can say Pless is

always

anything

either

I read the underlined at "annoying" when I first looked at your post. And I was going to say that maybe Edd had a point .

Edd, give an example of a post where it feels like they're "sniping from the sidelines."

Spoiler:

I haven't had a chance to discuss my impressions yet with Pless, so this content is 100% Zar. I'm agreeing with Regfan on Molla looking townish, especially based on his early entrance.

Dolorous Edd is a Hydra composed of two Westerosi players known to be somewhat batshit, so the explosion of chaotic reasoning coming from them does not seem scummy to me. Especially after just reading #73 and realizing all of the content has been coming from Arthur.

Regfan's contribution to the discussion feels more likely to come from a town mindset. While logical =/= town, Regfan's post does seem contrived or grasping for things that aren't there.

@shadoweh: As much as I'm annoyed at SB for doing what she did, her logic doesn't really strike me as coming from scum. Sure, I get the 1 - 1 trade-off that has been explained in thread, but I empathize on how a town-aligned player would think this could be a idea, as it was also my reaction when it was proposed.


~Zar.

While on the subject – what is your read on Minimum and why is it that?

Hmm. Our take on Minimum is a bit confused. I can't read CES at all, personally. But Zar tells me that he thinks CES fits his scum-meta better than his town-meta at the moment. In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards). We'd both have a better take on that slot if Mina was posting more. We think.

(Lyanna, I think it was us who speculated that Minimum was mostly/entirely CES. Mina was pretty good at signing her posts when she was a hydra in SOS -- plus, of course, Minimum's posts so far have been pretty short...).

No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.

Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?

~ Pless

SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games.

Why?

I don't really think you're asking me this because you want to hear an answer, for some reason . But if you really do need it spelled out, then: SnowStorm comes from a site where policy lynches are frowned on (or at least nobody admits to pushing them). This would make his vote for Benmage somewhat understandable, given the post he responds to. If he'd claimed to have read previous games, however, he would presumably know not to be surprised by it (and that first post would be harder for him to justify).

CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke.

The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight.

I got it. It was

annoying and unhelpful

very droll.

@Dolorous Edd

: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.

[...]

I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer? Did you just pick some names to underline at random so you could be seen to be active and scumhunting and stuff?

Get Alek to answer that, if you can, he's a better liar than you.

(Oh, and good luck with your move to college .)

~ Pless

I have a growing pool of strong town reads right now, very confident that on top of Pandora, Tyene and Ed [...]

We're a bit confused about why you have a strong town-read on Tyene . You seem to have decided on this pretty quickly; have recent posts reinforced this impression, or was your initial town-read just that strong to begin with?

(Also, Hyperion is GreatJim on the Westeros site, right? Don't really understand the meta-based scum read on him, if that's the case.)

I tottally agree with Zar though I am batshit, but don't listen to plessie i am a very bad liar

I never suggested you were a good liar, only that you were better at it than Arthur ...

(But that was mostly an attempt to goad you into posting, of course.)

Oh Alek. You're not really doing anything for the town read I gave to Arthur.

This was my gut reaction also.

Aaand the major hydra dissonance just showed that Edd is (are?) town (again).

Can't say I agree with this. The hydra dissonance displayed by Pandora earlier seemed very natural; that's a town-tell, sure. But the Alek/Arthur dissonance? Meh.

It would also be nice if hydra were to sign their posts.

I assume that Edd's most recent post is Arthur again?

~ Pless

Could you expand on how you view any of that as sniping from the sidelines?

Ooh, I'll field this one for Arthur!

Spoiler:

No, he can't.

Plssie/Zar,

obviously you short term memory is wacky

Remember when I said you were going a long way to destroy the town vibes Arthur was giving your hydra? Yeah, you keep knocking off town notches. I don't know if it's because you're getting cocky because you finally won a scum game or you just think that insulting people for no reason makes you look town, but either way you might want to rethink your approach.

I can't remember what I was going to say in reply to this

with Arthur as his co-head, it's not really surprising Alek would go for this approach, is it?

Third:

Hyperion’s “placeholding” Quote Wall would have been better served being saved as a draft; posting it looks like he just wanted to get something that looked like there might be thought and substance behind it on the board before too much more of the game went by him. Also, I think it’s reeeally reaching to go to the sign-up thread and find a post made before anyone had role pms and use it to justify an attack.

It looks like you are already suggesting multiball, but then attack Feysal for suggesting ti [

sic

].

I can see where you're coming from with your other points against Hyperion (and can only point to the chorus of people saying "no, this is how he plays as town, honest"), but I don't get this. Edd was attacking somebody for assuming the game was multiball. It seems perfectly natural for Hyperion to point out that lots of people clearly assumed it was (going to be) multiball -- the fact the post he quotes is from the sign-up thread (before anyone, including Edd, had a role PM) just makes the contrast between that post and Edd's later "wow, who said it was multiball?" stance the more striking. Don't see anything wrong with going back to compare the two.

Fourth:

Shadow: His snarky play reminds me very much of the last game, when he was scum.

Could somebody who played in AFFC perhaps make a list of who was scum for me? As far as I can tell, it's not been revealed on the game thread, which currently only goes up to page 60 / the start of day 3 (I assume because of the board crash a while back?).

~ Pless

[Tyene Sand]

Sorry for absence, have things to do today but will tackle this when I get home.

[Petyr Baelish]

Mod: Replace me. Sorry. I don't want to let this game get out of hand for a replacement, and I'm not sure I'm going to have time to really catch up.

[Eddard Stark]

Searching for a replacement for Petyr Baelish
Prodding Jal. Also enquiriing into what Hyperion means by a week long V/la if it means no posts I can't allow that so will search for a replacement.

[Eddard Stark]

Kortul replaces zoraster/petyr baelish. Big thanks to him!

[StefanB]

Sorry, had no time yesterday, so a few questions:

Plum, why do you feel like a bad person for a scum read? Isn't this normal for mafia. And the languagebarrier is only my fault, not yours. If it is to difficult I will replace out. (Yes that was about her scumread on me)

MoS: Is that normal for MoS regardless of alligment?
I have seen him playing with short snippes at the beginning of the day as scum. (Link hope that works):

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18732

(It also has Amrun and Quilfordtown and me as SK)

Count me in the list, who think a nameclaim from Starbuck should come with the VT-claim.

Hello Kortul.

[Shadow1psc]

Also Shadow, it’s kind of funny that you include AFFC in your list of past games where you tried to be helpful (Post 473 because you were super-scum there. Too bad the tigers ate most of that game because then the newer people could go check it out to get a good helping of Scum-Shadow (and MoI too, for that matter).

See previous post, but GvE, AFfC and Chrono Trigger (especially CT) have all really reinforced my stance here that I can try and be useful, but I may as well just be funny because my reads are dismissed (and rightly so, I'm not always right), though I think the bigger point to make here is I believe my play doesn't change because every game I've been in as scum as multiball, and I just genuinely scum hunt the other team. In CT I couldn't even talk to my own scum team, and for awhile I just didn't know who they were because there were so many people and replacements, and everyone just seemed to randomly turbo-mislynch. All of my 'shock' and 'outrage' was natural because it was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen happen.

[Shadow1psc]

Point being, if you read CT, I was scum in multiball. I legitimately thought JustinTimberlake (faraday/regfan) were scum. Like, all game. AFfC I don't remember well enough to point to a specific example, and as you said, it was eaten. My interaction at the start of the game (where I pointed at Zoraster for potentially slipping a buddy) is something I would have naturally done as scum or town, and people jumped on that like it was the scummiest thing since scum came to scum town (which I still don't understand).

I'm just misunderstood