A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Minimum]

I can see a meta-based burden of proficiency argument for Tierce (I don't agree with it but I can see it), but meta should also tell you that applying burden of proficiency to our slot is bunk.

[Tyene Sand]

But of course I do. Now go read through games I was actually busy in

as town

. Mini 1333 will do. Disengaged in general? Otherworld Mafia. (Try having a town PR fuck you over every night as town and you'll see what I mean about that damned game.) And a variety of Large Themes for simple "ugh this game has too many people can't read them all" stuff. I'd know, I always end up in Large Themes when I should know better. >.>

Being accused of being disengaged is ridiculous--it wasn't in this account (my bad), but I was V/LA for the last week; I had the Violet Skittle visiting me. Accusing me of not paying proper attention to this thread when, despite that, I am still the fourth player with most posts in this thread, is ridiculous and you know it, Magua. Name ONE sticky situation while I was not V/LA which I avoided and I'll grant you that point, but ffs, I've been pulling my weight as possible.

In addition: should I be finding scum? I was the one leading the DCLXVI Choose wagon as a second lynch, controlled the speed of the bvoigt lynch, and caught Saporerint on a slip. I'm having my best streak by far and you're calling that not good enough. I mean, I could be trolling Mr. Not In This Game chesskid3, but I honestly don't know what else you expect me to do in a game where I

have

been producing protown results through my dayplay, which is more than I can say for most of my town games like... ever. ._.

[BBmolla]

Inb4 prod pm

Tierce post more so I can sheep you

[Lyanna Stark]

BB - can you explain your jal scum read to me. I'm having trouble with my read on her.

[Minimum]

Um, replying in questions to make the answers seems obvious, lyke, totally doesn't make you seem any better. I don't care what MockingJaye said personally. Where and how do you see her having a deliberate narrow focus?

What has happened every time you've played with Feysal previously? His alignment becoming obvious? Be specific. I do not look up everyone's past and present games, nor should you expect anyone else to in this particular regard. I don't know or really care all that much about your history. Don't make it like it should be obvious. Other than not saying much of anything except a lot of words, Feysal has been taking a narrow focus on the Starbuck/Scumhunter slot. You think the slot is town. Do you see him branching out later on in this game if Scumhunter is still around?

It was kind of obvious I was talking about mockinjaye though (the second question mark is more a style thing; there's no reason that'd be obvious unless you had a history with Feysal).

To answer your questions: everywhere and yes if he's town.

[Lyanna Stark]

Don't give BB an Aegon-pass for his role PM claim. Yes, BB doesn't like playing scum, but that would totally be the reckless move he would do as part of that faction.

I'm reading BB as town anyway, but I doubt he's Aegon related based on the way that Sala interacted with him. If you look at the way he interacted with bvoigt, and how little, compared to how he interacted with BB, there's a noticeable difference.

[kortul]

Going through ISOs takes more time than i thought, so hopefully will finish tomorrow, eyes are closing. And reading conversations between Lyanna and Jal lately is like climbing a mountain...

@Zdenek

, you were focused on Tyene before, why today did you vote Minimum instead, without actually asking her anything or telling us why do you think she is a good lynch? And another question, why do you find reading mockingjaye painful?

[Lyanna Stark]

Going through ISOs takes more time than i thought, so hopefully will finish tomorrow, eyes are closing. And reading conversations between Lyanna and Jal lately is like climbing a mountain...

And I had been doing relatively well at containing my annoyance until now

[Zdenek]

I'm coming around to Kortul scum. It's basically a gut read based on his fairly generic posts.

Why the vote for Minimum?

Mostly her end of day 3 play.

Mockingjaye's posts make me want to vomit and I get nothing of value out them, but I can see how this:

Is this mockingjaye's first post (EDIT: 2nd)? It looks like she was near the hurricane....It looks pretty null to me, I guess. It's not clear why Shinori gets on the scumlist (EDIT: Hyperion got a big section before), but I suppose it doesn't bother me much.

is unnatural - it's not clear, oh it is, it doesn't bother me much.

I don't object to lynching Anxiety, but it seem like a pretty weak lynch if this is why it's being pushed.

No one thinks Minimum is scum anymore?

Preview edit or Kortul: because very few people think that Tyene is scum, so there is no point on leaving my vote on her. It's probably more useful for me to use it to do other things. I think it's pretty clear why minimum is scum. There's been a lot said already. I don't feel the need to repeat it at the moment.

Are you seriously asking me why I find reading mockingjaye painful? I practically regard that as a confession that you haven't tried.

[Lyanna Stark]

Burden of proficiency is exactly what it is that I'm doing with you and Minimum. However, it's far from stupid. Especially since I know you're as big a believer in meta as I am.

I know you're a big fan of meta but how does her scum meta match here? When tierce was scum in experimental mafia, she barely referenced or interacted with her partners; she definitely didn't go after them. Sure, she's capable of changing her meta, but how she has behaved so far would be rather dangerous for her in multiball. She was the first to point out that redff looked like scum and she pointed out the sapo slip. So she's gone after both teams which would be reckless for her longevity as scum. I just think as scum she'd be a little more careful than she has.

(although just going to say how annoyed at myself I'll be if tierce is scum in the first game I'm consistently reading her as town, but I don't think she is.)

[Pandora]

So I thought I'd go back and see why Shinori would check on Tierce, ignoring for a moment my heated rage for such a stupid choice. Actually I thought I'd go back to see who Shinori thinks is scum, but the answer to that seems to be NO-ONE. His scum reads for the last three days besides Staeg have only been Bvoight and SalaSaposcum for (insert reason here). He never actually gave a reason why they were scummy. He was just like 'totes scummy, let me on there.' Also his response to Sapo's slip:

Yeah why was that posted here? >.>"

There's a steaming lack of SUSPICION here.

Going back to Day 1 where actual opinions exist, he gave reasons why Minimum uhm.. was 'either town or scum', and why Shadow was 'decently scummy' in a post that ends with a choose on Feysal. His 'case on Snowstorm' is just a comment on a votepark (almost like the early rvs stuff didn't matter :o ) and 'he said some stuff and that's scummy'. The difference in detail between reads is rather striking.

These are the last actual reads he's ever given.

For what it matters without going into detail.

Scum reads on minimum, Bvo, shadow, snowstorm
Town reads on, Feysal, Lyanna, Starbuck, Regfan, MoI, Benmage, Hasdgfas, Staeg, Teirce, plumsyomamma.
Null on everyone else for the most part, I might be leaning one way or the other on their alignment but for the most part null.

Also I asked the mod and he has given me permission to do this so I'm starting it here, me and a friend are going to start hydraing from this account. He doesn't play here so you wouldn't know him, but he is "Elie" and I am "Shino/ri".

So yeah, I can see why someone would think you'd pick Minimum over anyone. Why you would pick Tierce is beyond me. Why you wouldn't mention you were a Frey would be explainable if you aren't actually a Frey and you only pulled up your fakeclaim now. It would also explain your weird squiggly behaviour around Sapo and Bvoight. I think being allied with the other team is less likely just due to no interaction, but I will also note that there's no mention of Hellcat in Shinori's ISO at all. He was always quietly in support of a Feysal choose.

I've been thinking what kortul said for awhile, about scum not wanting to out themselves during multiball because it makes you into a lovely shootface delight. I'm postulating that we're missing something. It's not much of a risk to out yourself as a half-tracker if you're going to use it as an excuse to do nothing, and it's much less of a risk if you can't/want to die. I'm tired of waiting for things to 'resolve themselves'. They obviously aren't. It's up to us to actually Do Something, starting with kicking out the thoughtless void.

##Vote: Shinori

Cut: Stictly speaking, as much as Miss Sand is the very best like no one ever was I wouldn't say she's being that dangerous right now, being on vacation and all. And as Polite Mafia showed the most likely person to pick up a scumslip is scum so etc. It's been four days and we're still barely through the chaf of power roles dying before 'obvtowns'. Maybe you should start arguing with her again >.>

[Zdenek]

What if we greyscale shinori. He gets one more night to do something useful if he's town and if he's not town he dies. Mostly, I just don't want to deal with him after his poor play excuse and this seems like a reasonable solution to me.

[Lyanna Stark]

Cut: Stictly speaking, as much as Miss Sand is the very best like no one ever was I wouldn't say she's being that dangerous right now, being on vacation and all. And as Polite Mafia showed the most likely person to pick up a scumslip is scum so etc. It's been four days and we're still barely through the chaf of power roles dying before 'obvtowns'. Maybe you should start arguing with her again >.>

I suppose. I meant going after both teams. However, if it is true that the Aegon faction is split up then some of this doesn't mean as much? You're a bad influence Shadoweh, I'm trying not to be so bitchy and argumentative this game. And, I don't have a reason to anyway.

I'm going to think about what you said about Shinori, and I'm finding myself in agreement with Zdenek.

[Pandora]

As far as I understand, Greyscale isn't something seperate, this lynch is greyscaled instead of immediately lynching. So in effect voting for someone is voting for Greyscale? So yes. Let's do that thing with that place that time.

Cut:

Hey that post could have been anyone

I'd also point out that one team can't really go after the other on purpose. Are you implying I'm bitchy and argumentative? *me runs to whitewash Experimental Mafia*

[Zdenek]

Oh yes.

Unvote
Vote: Shinori

[Lyanna Stark]

Cut:

Hey that post could have been anyone

I'd also point out that one team can't really go after the other on purpose.

Oh, derp, you're right.

Are you implying I'm bitchy and argumentative? *me runs to whitewash Experimental Mafia*

Not at all. But while you're out whitewashing games, could you have a go at Mafia behind the Maiden? Thanks.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay, just made my way through MJaye again. She focuses on people but does so in a kind of mechanical manner that focuses on really shallow things - just what people say or do but doesn't seem to be trying to understand the motivations behind them. She seemed to be going after easy people like Starbuck/minimum/Edd/Hyperion/Shadow...basically people that a lot of people were saying seemed scummy and then elaborating on that. She does have a bit of a small focus though. She says she's reviewing more people but doesn't really go into them the way she does those in the list already mentioned. Her choose on minimum comes at kind of an odd time. She unchooses Shadow and votes Shadow as the wagon was building on bvoigt and Shadow. She at the same time in Post 1274 chooses Minimum. Actually the wagon was also building on Saporerint. In the vote count before her vote for Shadow Post 1243, Sapo had 6 votes, bvoigt had 9 votes and Shadow had 5. This is interesting. I've been looking mostly at her in ISO, so I'll need to come back to this again when I can read it in context and see what, if anything, Sala/Sapo/bvoigt said about MJaye.

So, at the time that she moved from the Shadow choose wagon she moved onto the Minimum choose wagon which was just as small as the Shadow wagon. But, the Feysal wagon was 9 at the time, and she never changed this choose, so she never had to make a choice between Feysal and DCL though, but she gave basic town reads on them both, or town leaning reads in Post 1464 and voted for Stefan in this post while saying she could vote for either bvoigt or Stefan.

However, I do like Post 1930 in which she changes some of her reads and gives and updated where she's at. That kind of evolving reads is something that is not usually present in new scum and it looked like she was starting to broaden her focus a little.

I hated her jump on the Staeg wagon, however, as it showed extremely little examination of him and the weak excuse for the role and wifom was lacking.

In short, she doesn't look great. Her not being on either the Feysal or DCL choose wagon doesn't make sense, as she went for a wagon that had no chance of taking off, and she chose to vote for Shadow instead of either the bvoigt or Sapo wagon at a time when both were on the rise. Her lack of activity would be troublesome but there was the hurricane she had to contend with.

Sala - only mentioned her to put her in his null reads (he also placed bvoigt in the null reads.)
Sapo - commented on that one post that Zdenek commented on which was rather wishy-washy and put her in her ambivalence section
Bvoigt - didn't interact with her at all, but put her as green in his final reads list

DCL - did not mention her once.

On paper, she could fit with either faction...I guess. I feel like something's missing though. I need to sit down with the game and re-read it, which definitely won't happen until this weekend. Maybe Friday night after I get home from being out. Aided by alcohol will probably help

[Pandora]

For the record I would also support an MJaye scaling if people sissy out of No-Content the Wonderdodger. I just can't put it into words. Maybe her avatar just looks creepy to me.

I didn't read that game too well so at least I won't hold it against you.

[BBmolla]

BB - can you explain your jal scum read to me. I'm having trouble with my read on her.

Wish I could remember. Her posts bugged me. I'll go back and look later and see if I can give you something more solid.

[kortul]

I am done with ISOs for now, and improved or changed some reads.

Regfan

- remains my strong town read. There was a moment of doubt at the beginning of Day 2, when he posted clarification that jail votes will be public, but after some thinking over I decided that it isn't a scum tell.

Shinori

- Not much of a presence and cryptic Day 2, but his claim is what persuaded me that he is town (explained why earlier). Will reassess soon after thinking on Pandora points.

Pandora (Shadoweh/Quilford)

- leaning town. His play on day 1 was good, and all three flipped scum were actually in his Scum pile in 1136 (even though Sapo later made it back to town). Days 2 and 3 were more quiet, but the days itself weren't exactly intense.

Minimum (Mina/CES)

- leaning town. I had some doubts now and then, but overall impression is town, and i don't see them fit with any faction so far. The defence of StefanB was sincere (and in multiball it IS close to a town tell), they actually read the meta on DCL since in 1328 came to the same conclusions as me.

Lyanna Stark

- leaning town. She sounds genuine, during reread i liked her thoughts and stances, the way her reads progressed. Like, as a scum, she had no reason to warn Alek (head of Dolorus) that his behaviour is going to ruin the town image of the slot. I definitely don't see her in Stannis faction.

Tyene Sand

- leaning town. She was my weak town read through the reread on Day 1, and during the later days. Today I ISOed her to get a fresh impression after so many flips, and I still like her play. There were some minor things that I didn't like, but nothing strong.

Benmage

- leaning town. Controversial read, while doing his ISO i changed my mind several times, and in the end think that he is more likely to be town. Some paranoid part of me occasionally whispers that he can fit both factions, but logically and emotionally i see his actions on day 1 as genuine. I also thought that his 1,5 days disappearance at the end of Day 1 may be suspicious, and checked - his next post on site was in the other game (several hours after our Day 1 lynch) and he mentioned he was "rocked by real life", so the absence wasn't some strategic lurking.

Zdenek

- neutral, slightly leaning town. I like his entrance and activity in general. Even though from the start he attacked several of my town reads, i got the impression that he is working on his reads. During the reread sometimes i didn't agree with his logic, like 1622 (why Starbuck is not aligned with DCL), some posts about Tierce, etc. Don't like that he sees as scummy two of my town reads (not counting Shinori, since i have to think about the points from Pandora). Don't understand his play today so far.

Magua

- neutral. During the reread i had a feeling that hasdgfas wasn't really in the game. But his goodbye post sounded genuine and town, i liked the part about not sheeping. As for Magua, i agree his stance on Shinori on day 2, but that's about it. Many of our reads are really different, which means we are viewing the game from different angle. Whether this is based on playing style, meta with players or alignment is a thing I hope to figure out as the game progresses.

BBmolla

- neutral. I agree with some of his early reads and like some comments. Don't like his reaction to Hyperion vote, unchoose of DCX. Sometimes have paranoid thoughts about his "letter" thing. Don't understand his reaction on Day 3.

Mastermind of Sin

- neutral. There were no strong scum or town tells. At first i didn't like his attack on Tyene, but after some thinking came to conclusion that it was natural, if his explanation that he forgets that Tierce is Tyenna is true (and it seems so, since there's no reason to fabricate cases based on obviously wrong factual information). Don't like his stance on DCL wagon, but will reassess whether feeling remains when we'll have another Stannis flip (if both of us will be still alive).

Feysal

- neutral. Weak town read on day 1, he became null afterwards, because of his repeated absence from the game. Don't like the narrow focus after day 1.

Jal

- neutral, slightly leaning scum. I went over his ISO twice, then did a meta read, and still at loss. I like that he is reading carefully, and sometimes shows good thinking. Questions about fake claims in 1200 sounds as a town tell. Things I don't like - not always following reads with votes, overdefensive, misrepresentation of my reads (given that in most other cases he is accurate with facts and analysis), the arguing with Dolorus Edd on day 3. Don't have an opinion on back and forth with Lyanna yet, later will try to gather it in a separate file and read carefully once again.

4nxi3ty/Mockingjaye

- slightly leaning scum. Don't like that she avoided making stances on sala/sapo and bvoigt. In 1464 while speaking about StefanB and bvoight, she said a lot about Stefan, gave some links and opinions, and as for bvoight only said that she is waiting for his claim. She managed to avoid making a choice between DCL and Feysal as well, though that looks more natural. Still, this read is weak, since she had 8 posts with content to analyse, and not many interactions. I DO hope that day 4 would be longer then previous two days, and i will get a better read from the play of 4nxi3ty.

Plum's Yo Mamma (Nacho/Plum)

- slightly leaning scum. I don't know how Plum plays, but Nacho can play much better, when he wants to. Don't like their stance towards Sala/Sapo. Since he is godhanded, i didn't reread them today.

Scumhunter/Starbuck

- leaning scum. I don't think that her claim/selfchoose was a tell at all, since i can see her doing this as both town and scum. In the middle of day 1 she went under radar. Don't like 75, bvoigt stance on her, and i see her as a best fit in Aegon faction, but at the same time she can fit Stannis as well - redFF theory discussions with her doesn't sound like lynch pushing at all, and DCL was ignoring her.

[kortul]

Pandora case on Shinori mostly describes him as bad and closed player, but is Shinori scum because of this? I don't think this attributes are alignment indication. Though, at a first glance i see at least two points from Pandora i have to think about, whether they make null my reason for thinking that Shinori is town.

[Regfan]

Pandora, I can kind of understand what you mean about Shinori, his scumhunting has been weak and his lack of stating he was a Frey yesterday when people were suggesting that Staegs role was a mason hunter are both scummy but the same time what's the thought process as scum? Are you saying he found out that Staeg was an investigative role and thought he'd out it and get him lynched over it? Because I don't think that makes much sense as scum, makes more sense to 1) Shoot the investigative role 2) Stay quiet, talk with partners who would likely advice against it or 3) Do nothing. His Tierce investigation is....weird and bad but I don't think he'd know that he'd have to out alternate results as scum and then check such a bad target or have his partners let him do so. I think it's more likely he's just terrible. Either way not comfortable lynching him today.

On paper, she could fit with either faction...I guess. I feel like something's missing though. I need to sit down with the game and re-read it, which definitely won't happen until this weekend. Maybe Friday night after I get home from being out. Aided by alcohol will probably help

That's exactly it. The slot works fairly well as scum with both factions not just due to their interactions with the flipped scum but the flipped scums interactions with them. Plus the fact that Mockings comments don't come across as townish and 4nxietys replace in 'catch-up' has been super underwhelming and consists of him making miniature little comments here and there that really don't add up to much. All around the slot has an extremely good chance of flipping scum. Not to mention I have a lot of town-reads and people that I see some townish things from so PoE also strengths the odds of it being scum.

Magua, I'll explain the Pandora-obvtown read tomorrow, or later tonight if the cricket gets boring.

[4nxi3ty]

I'm going to think about what you said about Shinori, and I'm finding myself in agreement with Zdenek.

what he said was basically what I was getting at earlier <.< I guess I didn't articulate it well enough. not really enthused about that idea anymore.

I still think Jal's lack of follow up on sapo because other people had a townread is a bit scummy, especially when it came to the trial by combat.

Explain this.

@4nxi3ty, why do you think it would be okay to kill a claimed PR over a scum read? I don't *think* it prevents the player being killed overnight by scum anyway.

never said I would be okay with killing a pr over a scumread.

ime town are more likely to continue pushing someone as scum regardless of what others say, whereas scum tend to let majority sway their actions.

If one of my scumreads ended up in a 1v1, I would've had something to say about it. Your lack of comment on sapo during the trial by combat bothers me.

Tho I am sorta doubting you are Aegon aligned based on some of your comments about bvoigt and sapo.

I think Edd is town and believes in what he is saying.

what was the main thing that changed your mind about this read?

[4nxi3ty]

4nxietys replace in 'catch-up' has been super underwhelming and consists of him making miniature little comments here and there that really don't add up to much

just cause i don't write up paragraphs or make lists of reads doesn't mean i haven't been contributing

[kortul]

Almost posted my comments and thoughts on Pandora points on Shinori, but on preview realized that if Shinori IS scum, my post may influence his response. So saved this as a draft, and will wait for Shinori to give his own answers first. If he is town he has nothing to hide and will explain things and answer questions. And if he is scum, i don't want to help.