A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Regfan]

Sorry about the lack of activity, work and a few of my obligations have finally quietened down so I should be able to spend a lot of time on this game. If there's anything anyone wants me to specifically look into at this point then best to let me know within the next day or so.

Do very much think Tierce has a point re; Salas reads list, they're manually typed and while I don't think he thought about it in depth before putting it together there's a good chance he put scum in similar spots inside the lists and I'd bet all generally in the middleish to bottom of the lists. I know that in DEFCON3 where I was scum and made a read list posts where I stuck Vi/Pooky/LLD/Gamma in positions like that and it wasn't 'random'.

Going to take a look at the Thor vs Zdenek wall battle in more depth later as well as look at 4nxietys 'points' about Zdenek and Minimums on Thor.

---

Timeater, I know this'll turn into a 'paragraph/wall' but please read it and respond, [re; Post 3470] 1) The early posts being forced isn't exactly weak though, it's all related to the manner in which you attempted to claim. I remember in Kdubs game Faraday and I had auto-strong-town-read on your predecessor for unprompted claims and information revealed and your replace in partial claim then progression onto stating you realized that your predecessors has already claimed all looks forced and looks like an attempt to work into the meta you think I hold about claiming. I don't find any of that or your thought process about it natural at all. 2) It's not about your read on Tammy being wrong, heck you having a wrong read is probably more of a town-tell than a scum-tell but that's besides the point, the issue I hold with it is your lack of reaction towards her dying and flipping town, it's not what I know of you as town, you're reactive to flips and information, there's none of that re; Tammy at all. 3/4) Then read the game, excuses of "I haven't read the game thus my scumhunting can't be bad" really isn't going to help you at this point, it's months into a game (You're right about that part at least) and we need stances, reads, opinions backed by information revealed in the thread, if you're just jumping around reading a quarter or less of the thread and posts then you're useless. So if you want to change my mind about your slot then actually give me something that can do as much because right now given how Scumhunter lurkerlurked in the thread and hates being scum and his play matches it and Starbucks lack of engagement in the thread points to scum I have a lot of trouble stopping myself and everyone from lynching you.

[Unrelated to that post your push here on Tierce at least is wrong, I'm fairly confident she's town and her 'talking down' to people and 'raging/wanting justice' isn't a scum-tell at all, especially not in this game which has been incredibly frustrating at more than just times. I can sympathize with her attitude and emotions about that a lot. I hate hate hate hate AV"s play up until his recent wall and if there were a lot of mslynches available and I wasn't committed to the game I'd have lynched him for the sake of it but everything points to his claim being legitimate. When Tierce said you were being scummy/forced she wasn't talking about you asking if she was confirmed via non-play, you're misrepresenting her when you state as much, she was talking about your earlier useless questions about Victorian ect.]

[AurorusVox]

Proddodge while I complete the rest of my read-through. A couple new players have turned up but I'm still not getting solid reads on everyone. Apologies for delays, it's the end of term so I've got a lot of final-assessments to mark - I should probably have declared a V/LA a few days ago.

On which note,

V/LA tonight through Tuesday

. I'll attempt to finish the read-through before I go out of action late this evening (around midnight...)

[Tyene Sand]

Welcome to Misrepresentation Central, our public sessions take place everyday at 5 and 8 PM and on weekends at 11 AM.

To your left, exhibits A:

Also just so you guys know,

Tierce is obv-frigging-town by anyone's reckoning.

and

Tierce is town because you need to present some evidence that she doesn't rage at people as Town

B:

Hi Pandora. Would you say http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4433471 is fair?

As for the whole preachy thing, its just a tonal read. As far as I'm concerned Tierce doesn't get off on telling people how to play, she's hardly a super arrogant player. I see it as a minor quirk in playstyle to adjust to being scum. Its easy to make excuses for your play when you speak from a position of automatic authority. Its a small thing really.

And C:

...yeah, I'm done with this BS. Just make it stop. I'm to the point where thinking about this game and about Today makes me rock back and forth with a really haunted look.

Don't care anymore.

VOTE: Timeater

Also just to re-iterate it for everyone my position is I think Tierce just put a really bad and scummy vote on me (L-2 atm). When I asked her to justify herself she was evasive, made excuses, and responded poorly and in a tone that I dont think befit the situation. Combined with her hyper-defensive position of her own towniness, her general tone of superiority which does not match her meta (for more on this I would just read her iso), her feigned (I think) unawareness of how I actually post, and the way she tried to justify her read of my play being "disgustingingly fake and scummy" by saying she's frustrated at the same time so that justifies her charged language/makes it okay.

If you need any help, feel free to signal one of our assistants. Enjoy your stay, and have a nice day!

[kortul]

I am sorry for my absence, busy at work and occupied by profession-related studying and translating in my free time. It will be this way for another two weeks or so. Also have a business trip ahead. Regarding this game that means that while i will be able to follow it, ask and answer questions, and analyse things that do not require cross-reference ISOs or rereading, something deeper will have to wait. For the reference, will quickly state my current reads:

Regfan - town.
Tyene Sand - leaning town. This read is getting stronger.
Andrius/Shinori - leaning town due to early PR claim. How he is still alive is a mystery to me.
Plum's Yo Mamma (Nacho/Plum) - leaning town (hope his godhand flip will prove that). Completely changed my opinion, i like his play on days 4 and 5.
4nxi3ty - slightly leaning town, mostly because of him sticking head out with PR claim today. If we both will be alive on day 7 or so, then i will worry about this being a gambit. Didn't reread.
Pandora (Shadoweh/Quilford) - slightly leaning town. His recent claim isn't exactly PR for me, but it doesn't affect my read in any way.
Minimum (Mina/CES) - slightly leaning town. Not much presence on later days, so overall my read shifted towards neutral side.
Zdenek - neutral, slightly leaning town. Mostly due to active approach to the game, and i Thor-Zdenek exchange i like his position more. Didn't reread.
Magua - neutral. Didn't reread.
BBmolla - neutral. After i saw that Stannis had traitor, i am more and more paranoid about symmetry and him being Aegon (traitor, or looking for traitor) - references to a role PM, together with taking Griff name in 13. But overall impression is neutral.
AurorusVox - neutral, slightly leaning scum. Feeling better about him after he started working.
Thor - slightly leaning scum. Explained already after reread, and the impression is getting only worse.
Timeater - leaning scum.

Didn't see any more posts from Timeater that feel town (or at least genuine). Just extra pages to the thread to read

[4nxi3ty]

hmm?

Yes, my reads changed in 1000 posts. Please tell me you don't have issue with that.

nope, just wanted to know why since it was a significant change?

There is something badly wrong with you if you think that Thor ignoring something from a post of mine that he was immediately responding to is the same as me not realizing that you were referring to a line in one of your posts from 20 pages ago.

Your really grasping at straws, and you should stop it.

same no, similar yes.

misreading a post is a common occurrence here and you using it as justification for a lynch bothers me.

what is your read of me?

[BBmolla]

BBmolla - neutral. After i saw that Stannis had traitor, i am more and more paranoid about symmetry and him being Aegon (traitor, or looking for traitor) - references to a role PM, together with taking Griff name in 13. But overall impression is neutral.

You think Aegon has two informed roles?

[Timeater]

Sorry about the lack of activity, work and a few of my obligations have finally quietened down so I should be able to spend a lot of time on this game. If there's anything anyone wants me to specifically look into at this point then best to let me know within the next day or so.

Do very much think Tierce has a point re; Salas reads list, they're manually typed and while I don't think he thought about it in depth before putting it together there's a good chance he put scum in similar spots inside the lists and I'd bet all generally in the middleish to bottom of the lists. I know that in DEFCON3 where I was scum and made a read list posts where I stuck Vi/Pooky/LLD/Gamma in positions like that and it wasn't 'random'.

Going to take a look at the Thor vs Zdenek wall battle in more depth later as well as look at 4nxietys 'points' about Zdenek and Minimums on Thor.

---

Timeater, I know this'll turn into a 'paragraph/wall' but please read it and respond, [re; Post 3470] 1) The early posts being forced isn't exactly weak though, it's all related to the manner in which you attempted to claim. I remember in Kdubs game Faraday and I had auto-strong-town-read on your predecessor for unprompted claims and information revealed and your replace in partial claim then progression onto stating you realized that your predecessors has already claimed all looks forced and looks like an attempt to work into the meta you think I hold about claiming. I don't find any of that or your thought process about it natural at all. 2) It's not about your read on Tammy being wrong, heck you having a wrong read is probably more of a town-tell than a scum-tell but that's besides the point, the issue I hold with it is your lack of reaction towards her dying and flipping town, it's not what I know of you as town, you're reactive to flips and information, there's none of that re; Tammy at all. 3/4) Then read the game, excuses of "I haven't read the game thus my scumhunting can't be bad" really isn't going to help you at this point, it's months into a game (You're right about that part at least) and we need stances, reads, opinions backed by information revealed in the thread, if you're just jumping around reading a quarter or less of the thread and posts then you're useless. So if you want to change my mind about your slot then actually give me something that can do as much because right now given how Scumhunter lurkerlurked in the thread and hates being scum and his play matches it and Starbucks lack of engagement in the thread points to scum I have a lot of trouble stopping myself and everyone from lynching you.

[Unrelated to that post your push here on Tierce at least is wrong, I'm fairly confident she's town and her 'talking down' to people and 'raging/wanting justice' isn't a scum-tell at all, especially not in this game which has been incredibly frustrating at more than just times. I can sympathize with her attitude and emotions about that a lot. I hate hate hate hate AV"s play up until his recent wall and if there were a lot of mslynches available and I wasn't committed to the game I'd have lynched him for the sake of it but everything points to his claim being legitimate. When Tierce said you were being scummy/forced she wasn't talking about you asking if she was confirmed via non-play, you're misrepresenting her when you state as much, she was talking about your earlier useless questions about Victorian ect.]

1. Please go over your reads of Plum and Tierce and specifically look at their voting patterns. Also please look at Tierce

critically

.

2. The whole Sala-list thing feels weak. Is Salamence that retarded? I'm sort of interested though.

3. Please do go over Thor v Zde. I tend to just roll my eyes and skip it when I see it, I haven't had the willpower to actually read the babble going on there. But to be fair Zde is the bigger babbler. He is completely unreasonable in the aspect that he always has a comeback and will never concede any point (a generalization Zdenek, please feel free to list a hundred such occasions you have done so this game, thanks).

4(1). There was no attempt...I just did. I have no clue what your specific meta policy is on claiming. And I dont really understanding what you are saying here. Can you be more succinct you're becoming a mastin.

5(2). Embarassment? Schadenfreude? When I read the flip I may have uttered something not so nice to myself under my breath about her but thats about it. I didn't feel the need to comment on it and tell everyone how wrong I was and be all tragic.

6(3/4). Take Tierce for example? Take my initial reaction to Thor? Take my interactions with Zdenek? I've made my stances rather clear I think and I've tried to scumhunt in my way from the point in time I joined the game up untill now. I believe most of the points I made were fair, just that they aren't being heard or read due to apathy or "oh, timeater, mehhhhh" I'll comment on your Tierce bit in a sec.

[Timeater]

[Unrelated to that post your push here on Tierce at least is wrong, I'm fairly confident she's town and her 'talking down' to people and 'raging/wanting justice' isn't a scum-tell at all, especially not in this game which has been incredibly frustrating at more than just times. I can sympathize with her attitude and emotions about that a lot. I hate hate hate hate AV"s play up until his recent wall and if there were a lot of mslynches available and I wasn't committed to the game I'd have lynched him for the sake of it but everything points to his claim being legitimate. When Tierce said you were being scummy/forced she wasn't talking about you asking if she was confirmed via non-play, you're misrepresenting her when you state as much, she was talking about your earlier useless questions about Victorian ect.]

You act as if the "talking down" point is one of my main issues for voting Tierce. I've specifically said its a small part of why I think she's mafia, its not my main point. Okay sure, you empathize with her about AV but do you also empathize with her instantaneously declaring me hardscum after I was shotgun posting? And once being calmy questioned about it being extremely evasive and cheeky? Take her recent post for example, everything she quoted there is entirely valid. She is saying I somehow misrepresented her position in A; when I was more or less directly quoting her. B; directed at Pandora with the intent of trying to get someone on the outside to look at our little spat while explaining my read on her, thats apparently misrepping (???). And C; my clarification stance and position on her as to avoid further post-wars and potentionally walling - thats a misreprensentation. Ummm? Am I missing something here? Is everyone just so apathetic and worn out by walls that this sort of blatant scumminess gets a bye?

When Tierce said you were being scummy/forced she wasn't talking about you asking if she was confirmed via non-play, you're misrepresenting her when you state as much, she was talking about your earlier useless questions about Victorian ect.

How would you know what she was specifically talking about? I dont think she made that clear in her post.

No, I'm not nervous, you idiot. I'm sick and tired of this game that is 140 pages already, I am legitimately SICK, I am typing with a remapped space bar because mine broke, and your play is disgustingly fake and scummy. I'm frustrated as all get out. Nervous? No. I was not replying to 3521 in 3522, anyway.

I dont see how this follows with "you asking if she was confirmed via non-play" - Where have I said as much? Where exactly have I been unfair? Point it out to me. Please clarify.

[Timeater]

Ah. I see your point (I think...). But I dont see where I've ever said or made a big deal of her 3522. Its more of the post surrounding the vote that I find compelling. Its more of the way I kept asking her how I was quote "disgustingly fake and scummy" and her continued evasiveness.

[Timeater]

Didn't see any more posts from Timeater that feel town (or at least genuine). Just extra pages to the thread to read

this is just really unfair

[Thor665]

Why is Plum likely town?

And why did you have Magua as town?

1. Still scumhunting when a scum would be coasting until obligatory lynch tomorrow. Derp.

2. Beard.

I think Tyrene is likely town and agree with whoever said her sounding peeved was not really "tonally" unusual for her.

Still want to lynch Zdenek. Shock.

[Zdenek]

misreading a post is a common occurrence here and you using it as justification for a lynch bothers me.

I'm not.

what is your read of me?

Seriously, how do you not know this? You being aware of my read on you was the entire basis for your attack on me from earlier.

[Zdenek]

V/LA Until Monday/Tuesday

God willing Thor will dead by then.

[Regfan]

Timeater, I'm not going to spend time re-looking at Plum at this point, their alignment will be confirmed at the end of the day so it's not worth spending time on now. I'll go re-look at Tierce for you

critically

if you want but I'm fairly sure nothing will change my mind about that town read at this point and that won't happen until after I look at Thor/Zdenek tonight. Also the Sala list isn't a 'weak' thing, scum subconsciously treat partners differently in a list, I've done it before as scum so there's likely something there. The short version of what I'm trying to say re: point 4) is that Kdubs game showed you that I treat unprompted claims as a town-tell, your attempt at an unprompted claim here looks like you forcefully attempting to meet that town-tell, it doesn't feel natural.

About Tierce, I don't think she 'instaneously' decarled you hardscum. Her progression towards the vote is very follow-able, after unvoting AV she has no scum-reads and states that she doesn't think you fit as Stannis-Scum thus wants to know how you can fit as Aegon-Scum (Post 3337) and then states that she understands my reasoning for how you fit as Aegon but wants to check it up, states she doesn't have or know any better alternative (Post 3385). She states frustration with you and says she's likely to be biased when reading into you due to it (Post 3414), states that meta-wise she's reading you as scum but wants to do more reading into you (Post 3515), then gets annoyed with your spam posting, is annoyed with your play thus the 'JUSTICE' element and throws a vote down on you due to it all. It's a sequence that makes a lot of sense. The only point you have about her is that she didn't stop and respond to you by slowing pointing out what she found 'fake' but she did reference that she wasn't talking about your 'i didn't ask you were conftown by play miss' discussion as the fake posting but rather before that.

[Regfan]

Oh and Pandora I really really want to see a lot more posting from you. You've just been floating on by for far too long now.

[Regfan]

In fact Pandora, I get that you've been all "This Timeater lynch is wrong Starbuck was town is town vote anyone else!" lately and most of your posts have constituted of saying you don't want a part of this day but I just went and re-read you and you never had a town read on Starbuck for her early game play at all. The closest you went to stating something about her alignment wise was saying that Feysal had a point about her lurking and she was in Quilfords reads lists null pile so really not getting your play at all. Especially not getting how you seem to be supporting

both

Thor / Zdenek being scum.

[Eddard Stark]

Andrius has been prodded

[Eddard Stark]

Day 5, Votecount 24

Thor665 (3) - Minimum, Zdenek, BBmolla

Timeater (6) - Magua, Plums Yo Mamma, kortul, Regfan, Regfan, Tyene Sand

Zdenek (3) - 4nx3ty, Thor665, Pandora
Tyene Sand (1) - Timeater

Not Voting (2):

Aurorusvox, Andrius

With 14 alive and 1 living dead it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline

: 28th October at 19:30pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-10-28 14:30:02)

[/color]

[Pandora]

In fact Pandora, I get that you've been all "This Timeater lynch is wrong Starbuck was town is town vote anyone else!" lately and most of your posts have constituted of saying you don't want a part of this day but I just went and re-read you and you never had a town read on Starbuck for her early game play at all. The closest you went to stating something about her alignment wise was saying that Feysal had a point about her lurking and she was in Quilfords reads lists null pile so really not getting your play at all. Especially not getting how you seem to be supporting

both

Thor / Zdenek being scum.

Beyond the fact that this day is depressingly dull and I have given up hope of anything but the inevitable mislynch you are driving people towards, yes specifically you and I have no idea why you of all people are falling into this trap, I would think you could find the things I was saying about Starbuck starting in my third post.

Let me put it another way then that you should understand. Your original vote on Starbuck is typical RVS. Your pursuit of her is continuing over game theory (that you agreed with earlier, that we shouldn't try to pick scum to have the vig) and because you don't get something Starbuck appears to be hopeless confused about. Can you tell me what is scummy about what she's saying? I think you're just staying on the wagon that picked up and justifying your stay with questions that bring out more theory-related confusion instead of pulling out scum reads.

Considering I was arguing with someone I was voting, it isn't hard to defer that the person they are attacking, that I thought was 'hopelessly confused', was town and continues to be even with a honkingly sad wagon building on her slot. A wagon built out of mostly people I would have trusted otherwise too except for the weirdo at the start.

But no. Let's ignore the suspiciously cross-voted wagons and lynch the random dumbwit because he's irritating and insert scum argument here. You're the one with the two votes here. You're the one that The Scum trusts to lead us to the mislynch promised land. Why not instead of going down the path you're comfy traveling, Why don't you reread Zdenek's anti-Tyene crusade or Thor's sardonic laughing at anyone who posts in his direction play and figure out where you're wrong?

[Regfan]

Considering I was arguing with someone I was voting, it isn't hard to defer that the person they are attacking, that I thought was 'hopelessly confused', was town and continues to be even with a honkingly sad wagon building on her slot. A wagon built out of mostly people I would have trusted otherwise too except for the weirdo at the start. But no. Let's ignore the suspiciously cross-voted wagons and lynch the random dumbwit because he's irritating and insert scum argument here. You're the one with the two votes here. You're the one that The Scum trusts to lead us to the mislynch promised land. Why not instead of going down the path you're comfy traveling, Why don't you reread Zdenek's anti-Tyene crusade or Thor's sardonic laughing at anyone who posts in his direction play and figure out where you're wrong?

Arguing with someone that's attacking Starbuck doesn't mean you have to have a town-read on Starbuck, just means that you have to disagree with the reasoning put forward against the slot being town. The only literally only thing you've mentioned is her being 'hopelessly confused' and I don't see how that's something that is attributed with town over scum, scum can be thrown into the deep end in a large game with multi factions and can deal with pressure by being 'confused'. You've really put forward no decent reasoning whatsoever of why the slot is town but think it's okay for you to play a whole mighty "This is a mslynch you guys suck", it's not something that makes sense given what you've claimed about the slot and considering what Quilford thought of the slot as well and yes from the looks of things you two discussed your reads on her. Not just that but the case on Timeater isn't just annoying scum at all. Plus the argument you're using of "Scum gave you double vote so you can mslynch" means nothing in multi-faction especially when Stannis-Scum gave it to me and I'm voting what I think is Aegon-Scum.

[Minimum]

Feysal clearly believed Starbuckscum anyway.

[Regfan]

Just waddled through the Thor and Zdenek exchanges and now I have a headache. Summary of it is both of them are just misrepresenting the others comments to strengthen the case on the other person, very few legitimate scum-tells inside there. I'd say Thor comes out slightly worse through it all.

Think really overall the only legitimate points that Thor put up against Zdenek is 1) Zdeneks reasoning for having AV as a suspect or at least remaining voting him is incredibly weak, it's merely a 'scum playing for towncred by planning long in advance' angle but I think that's a minor scum tell if anything. 2) Zdenek stating that his scum-reads on both Timeater and Thor and stating he's happy with both lynches right now can be read as leaving multiple doors open but given the amount of town-reads elsewhere don't think it's too unlikely for him to actually have scum-reads on the two suspected people today so again that's minor - Speaking of which his vote on Thor while Timeater had the most votes means nothing given that his reasoning of Timeater being V/LA would get no reactions is understandable.

On the flip side the legitimate points that Zdenek puts up is that 1) Thors stating that he's based reads and votes with who's most likely to be in both factions, so if someone cannot be one faction he's not so much interested in lynching them however he's never attempted to tie Zdenek to either faction or see if it's plausible for him to work with either to begin with. 2) Thors lack of explanation on Feysal being 'obvtown' and switch from voting him to voting Zdenek for attacking him.


PEdit: Minimum, are you able to follow where Pandoras stance and read on Starbuckscumhuntertimeater comes from?

[Thor665]

@Reg - To respond to what you think are good points from Zdenek;

1. It's false logic. I asked him about that when he said the person he wanted to lynch was obv. not of the one faction and I said, well how is he obv. of the other faction then? Since I have not made such claims to expect me to then be obligated to make them is a false connection, it's a clearly different concept.

2. I...did explain this. You can say the explanation was dumb, but I did quite clearly explain it - even Zdenek thinks I explained it and called my reasoning scummy/dumb, so...?

And you find that more scummy than cheerleading? ::

[Minimum]

Pandora, if you're serious about making sure someone other than Timeater is lynched, why not move to Thor? Pretty much everyone who is not currently voting Zdenek thinks that Zdenek is town and a terrible, terrible lynch; your vote is useless there with so little time before deadline. If you joined our wagon, it'd be six Starbuck to four Thor, at least.

=========

AurorusVox, I have questions for you. (Assuming day ends before he gets back from V/LA and we're not around tomorrow, someone please bug him to answer this.)

Right, well. I think if Timmy was scum who just waded in and claimed, he wouldn't have fucked it up and softclaim something that someone else has already claimed, since he would have been provided with a fakeclaim. I don't see the reason scum would ditch a fakeclaim like that, especially not when you've just replaced in.

So...you thought that Timeater was town (and were therefore sheeping every read of his and obnoxiously kissing up to him) because you got the impression that he fucked up his softclaim.

To recap, that's literally the only reason that you called Timeater obvobvobvtown. He didn't make a single post that you personally felt was town, and you're perfectly fine with his lynch now. But you thought he was close to confirmed town based on the softclaim fuck-up. Is that a fair characterization of your opinion?

Let me ask you this. Never mind it being harder for scum to fuck up a fakeclaim in this game. If he's town, then

how the hell can he fuck up his softclaim in the first place

? What did you think his motivation was, as town, for softclaiming something different from his actual role? Please explain.

Also, how did you realize that scum had fakeclaims?

Also also, the conclusions in your reread feel somewhat contrived and tailored to fit your current opinions (for example, the leading wagon Timeater not being a town read anymore). When you first read the beginning of the game and decided Salamence was worth voting for, why didn't you share all that stuff about Starbuck looking scummy and Minimum looking townish then? (Never mind that our thoughts on Choose strategy could not be more null and unrelated to alignment.)

[Minimum]

PEdit: Minimum, are you able to follow where Pandoras stance and read on Starbuckscumhuntertimeater comes from?

Nope. Quilford has her as null in #1136 and Shadoweh mostly talks around Starbuck without giving a direct opinion on her (apart from some early pushing). When Shadoweh does push Starbucktown starting D4, I can't say her reasoning resonates with me either. Wouldn't be surprised if Pandora were scum with Timeater here.