Open 501: Stacking the Deck of Power (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.14

havingfitz (4) - Syryana, Tammy, Tierce, Sakura Hana
Lazurial (2) - Chenoan, dragonfly
Chenoan (1) - Mutleyddmc
Sakura Hana (1) - havingfitz
Syryana (1) - Nachomamma8

Not Voting (3) - The Rufflig, T S O, Lazurial

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Wednesday, June 12, 2013, at 12:30 AM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2013-06-12 00:30:00).

Moderator Comments

Nachomamma8 is V/LA until June 10.

[Syryana]

There's that Syryana case that I need to go through more deeply. But Nachoooo it's three days to deadline and havingfitz is doing some very very lovely prod-dodging and oh-god-I-don't-even-know-why-they-be-voting-me-help-help and I don't Trollyana to become a distraction when havingfitz cannot be bothered to muster the strength to scumhunt him.

Here's some incentive to go read the Nacho case.

Spoiler: Lots of incentive

Call me Trollyana more, it makes me warm and fuzzy inside <3

[Tammy]

I also did go back to NY146 where we played together and I was town and he was scum. Unfortunately the first 4? days was eaten by tigers, so I can't look back to his start in that game and I was a late game replacement.

So if the first 4 days were eaten by tigers how do you

know this

:

I

n NY146 he tunneled on a newer player that was an easy target for pretty much the entire game.

And in that game he protected his partners, which is why his metaing mutley, but not his scum read has got me wondering about him even more.

And to whom do you refer? Deasvail or Palisades? Because I was on Palisades for most of D1 and 2 (when he got lynched). And I stayed on him because I had support. He got to L-2 on D1 before a modkill on another player allowed him to make it to D2 where he was lynched. So not the same thing here. And if you are referring to Deasvail you're just wrong. Especially "for pretty much the entire game."

Why are you replying to this and not actually things that have to do with this game? Yes, the first 4 days were mostly devoured by tigers, but some of those days were recuperated. Maybe I'm remembering that patchy bit of a game I wasn't in at that point incorrectly, but your reads post directly after the tigercopalypse stated "I have suspected him the entire game and continue to do so. And my replace in reads post in which I read you as town was Really think he would have backed off the DV thing by now if he were scum, especially since it's not getting any traction.

But it doesn't matter because you pretty much pointed out here that you go after easy targets. Palisade was an easy target, but so was DV.

I'm bothered by the way he's reading Sakura because it looks like he's going after an easy target

If Sakura is such an easy target where are my scumbuddies? If I was scum...do you (or anyone) really think I would go down with the ship on a player everyone else seems to be giving a pass on. BTW...a quick look at my last several scum games shows me that I do not tunnel town on D1....I mix it up. The closest I came to not mixing it up was in the gmae you mention above....where most everyone agreed with me.

I hate when people ask this question. It's about as bad as Thor's constant, "where's the case on me". And since you bring up the game where most everyone agreed with you on, didn't your scumbuddy vehemently disagree with said lynch? And then didn't he start scum hunting that wagon? And I'm not going to tell you who you're scum buddies are, if you're scum, you already know that. Beyond that, I don't posit teams before a flip. I might note associatvie tells just in case, but that's about it. I do appreciate the self-meta, but I also know you as someone who can pull this off as scum, and I can see you from what I know from that game doubling down on your tunneling on someone like sakura. If I could just see that you were actually trying to read her, or listening to anyone of us has said without doubling down and misinterpreting things, which doesn't look accidental to me, then maybe it would be different but I'm not seeing that...at all.

[Lazurial]

@Tierce: Okay, I'll answer to the offenses I can recall then.

I flaked off my argument with Chenoan at first because I was frustrated. My motivation for my case against him was to scum hunt, but before I could get a good back and forth going my argument hit a wall, and he wasn't around to give me more material.

After Dragonfly voted him, I recollected myself and tried again until Chenoan posted a little more. End result I think he's town now.

My conversation at Nacho is the fact I'm a newb with little experience. I was trying to post and be honest and find friends among the town, as most people seem to do D1. I panicked a bit because it's my first experience under scrutiny (I've died as a NK in both of my newb-queue games and lurked for most of the days I was alive) and minced my words a bit.

Since, I've tried to answer everyone's questions so I can clarify any of my mistakes and explain my motivations.

Was there anything I missed, or any questions anybody else has that they'd like to pose?

Also,

Vote: Havingfitz

Just less than 3 days left. I can't really stall that vote any longer.

[Tammy]

Why is her jumping around on the wagons a concern?

Bear with me a moment. Currently, I don't think Sakura Hana is scum. I am not concerned by her vote moving around. I am somewhat concerned that her vote seems to be following public sentiment of who is scummy. Following the crowd is not an uncommon trait among scum. It helps them blend in and keep from being noticed -- not all scum engage in this behavior. Some players do it more than others. Keeping up a stream of scum hunting and reasons to follow the crowd is difficult for some players. If you want to see a classic example of a scum following the crowd check out Serra Paladin in Xylbot II. You can also check out Tierce running out of steam in her scum hunting after a single day's play in the same game.

So far, Sakura Hana's reasons for voting these people read fairly genuine. She is also poking around asking questions. As long as this keeps up, then her votes following public sentiment aren't a problem. To me, following the crowd is an indicator to keep an eye on a player.

Okay. You threw me off a bit. I don't do VCA until endgame, if I make it there, so the talk about vote switching had me ywitching. I've found that most people who jump around are more likely town, except the over cautios townie types like me who live to frustrate the VCA-ers. I didn't get that you were tying it to public opinion. And yes, tierce tends to get demotivated after a day or two as scum. I think she hates being scum even more than I do.

---

I'm exhausted and need to go to sleep, but while I was mulling this game over during laps earlier, I decided that I don't think there's more than one scum in the group of [chen, laz, dragon] and right now I think the least likely to flip scum is chenoan. This is mostly a reminder to myself that this is something I wanted to look into tomorrow though.

Quote tag fixed. (Equinox)

[Tammy]

Quote tag fail

[Syryana]

I can't really stall that vote any longer.

Why were you stalling that vote in the first place? According to your #360, you felt Tierce effectively shredded fitz. Why wait?

[The Rufflig]

@Tammy:

Where did your suspicion of dragonfly come from?

[Mutleyddmc]

VOTE: laz

Scummiest player

[Mutleyddmc]

Would be happy with a fitz,

chen or laz

lynch

You're welcome

Seriously....wtf?

---

I seriously don't even know what to say at the moment. I feel a few days out of sync because of RL and I'm not even sure what the case on me is other than people don't think my suspicions of Sakura were warranted.

Does anyone thinking of voting me have any questions for me?

Would anyone voting me care to explain why? I know I asked a few people already but I'm not sure if anyone answered. I'll look after this post.

Just because you defended me doesn't mean I can't find you scum

[T S O]

Honestly? I think scum is definitely within {fitz, Chen, Syr} as of now. Fitz looks the worst to me atm.

Yet you aren't voting anyone.

Havingfitz is at L-1 the last I saw. I'd prefer to let him respond than hammer him. As well as that I tend to not vote that much. ....self meta but true.

Fitz give Sakura-scum case in 4 sentences or less.

[Chenoan]

y'all like to post a lot of walls. dang.

I'm trying to keep up here, but by the time I got to post something I read that someone else has done it or it no longer seems relevant.

Neither Laz nor Fitz seem to be defending themselves very well. I'm still more comfortable with the Laz lynch, because my read on Fitz is so dependent on my reads on other players and I'm not totally confident in them yet.

I'd be okay with either Laz or Fitz as a deadline lynch, though, I guess.

[Syryana]

Neither Laz nor Fitz seem to be defending themselves very well. I'm still more comfortable with the Laz lynch, because my read on Fitz is so dependent on my reads on other players and I'm not totally confident in them yet.

Did you read Tierce's fitz case?

[havingfitz]

No.
Sakura is scum.

I still wonder what makes you think this? I mean seriously, I don't even know what to say to you anymore, since you disregard everything i tell you and make it a reason for you to think i'm scum, yet who's the one doing scumhunting here?

OK sheep.

---

Why are you replying to this and not actually things that have to do with this game?

I'm replying to it because you are discussing it in THIS game and are using it to try and indicate a tell on me...which I have shown to be inaccurate.

But it doesn't matter because you pretty much pointed out here that you go after easy targets. Palisade was an easy target, but so was DV.

The difference is...Palisades was getting support from most of the other players in the game. If I was scum trying to mislynch Sakura I would have moved on to a different wagon by now.

---

Vote: Havingfitz

Hey Laz...why are you voting me?

---

am somewhat concerned that her vote seems to be following public sentiment of who is scummy. Following the crowd is not an uncommon trait among scum.

Just keep looking the other way though.

---

ierce effectively shredded fitz

Since when did making a long misguided case on town become shredding? Seems more to me like putting a lot of effort into being wrong.

---

Havingfitz is at L-1 the last I saw. I'd prefer to let him respond than hammer him. As well as that I tend to not vote that much. ....self meta but true.

Fitz give Sakura-scum case

in 4 sentences or less.

As for my reasons for intially voting, and maintaining my vote on, Sakura...

- Initially reason was for the perceived contradiction in her expecting me to vote a wagon while she herself failed to (and pressure).

- Her willingness to vote Nacho for nothing more than pressure and put him essentially in the same position (L-3) that she was averse to putting someone in when she excused/defended her first vote to me.

- I didn't care for her Post 67 insinuation that someone (turned out to be Mutley) was saying she was scummy for speaking honestly (which was followed by my popular line of questions to establish how silly this statement was and therefore that it was a baseless accusation...ie suspect).

- What is essentially an OMGUS Vote on me.

And more recently:

- Her characterization of Chenoan based on four posts ????

- Her recent awkward push on Lazurial...

---

Neither

Laz nor

Fitz seem to be defending themselves very well.

What points on me do you agree with that I have failed to defend properly?

[Sakura Hana]

So havingfitz, if you've done some actual scumhunting, let's assume that you manage to get me lynched and I flip town, who will you go after next.

[Tierce]

I went back and checked if I had actually posted in the previous page or the site had eaten my posts. Apparently I'm invisible to havingfitz; that, or I'm wasting my time on "being wrong".

No clue

how

, since he doesn't actually talk with me. Thankfully I have a pair of pugs who are all too willing to

not

ignore my existence.


@T S O: havingfitz is at L-2 (had 4 votes at the top of the page and one more from Lazurial now). He doesn't seem overly bothered with the fact that he's getting lynched, so do him that favor and push him along.

[Lazurial]

@Syryana: I wanted to answer to Tierce first, considering her case was the one that lead me to fitz as scum.

@Fitz: I agree with Tierce's case against you thus far.

[Nachomamma8]

WHERE THE FUCK IS MY SYRYANA WAGON

[Nachomamma8]

@Syryana: His argument is that I've not been sticking hard to my conviction this game. It's entirely true. I've been somewhat flaky on my voting. Namely that I stopped trying to vote him the first time after I got no support. It doesn't necessarily fill out as a full scum read in my mind, but it's not wrong either.

He's flaky but he's fucking honest as shit. Have I seen newscum pull this off ever? Fuck no.

Questionable logic is one thing. Self-effacing behavior another--but now you're playing dumb.

What advantage does this post have as scum? Nothing. Nothing at all.

Pretty much exactly yes. How am I supposed to know when you're not joking? Certain parts didn't look like joking, but I don't know you very well so I could be misreading you.

generally when my posts are long and carry votes then their not joking
I'm not a jester; I'm still playing towards my wincondition.

At the moment I feel like either Nacho or Syr is scum, but I don't know which. If Nacho is scum, Fitz probably is too. If Syr is scum, fitz probably isn't. That's too much chaining for me to trust any of those wagons right now.

you're trying to create a fake false dichotomy and I hate it

Nuts. So much for analysis. Guess I'll have to resort to questions.

NOPE
Analysis. You're a tricky one, so I'm not going to let you slide so easily.

The town has been too focused on the newer and weaker players. I do not believe that the scum team consists entirely of Mutleyddmc, Lazurial and havingfitz. However, it seems as if both alignments are going after these same players. The more experienced players should know better, but their lists are nearly identical to the newer players. In the midst of all this, the scum players just blend right in. BTW, I tend to give the newer players a bit more slack (mostly because their behavior tends to trip me up).

My scumlist is SYRYANA and CHENOAN.
I'm not picking on the easy targets and FITZ is also another major point of focus. What game are you reading?

First off... look at you making useless (and actually false) remarks. Second: she took issue with you doing it DELIBERATELY. You have an issue with her because you think she was hypocritical? Hypocrisy isn't scummy. I think it's the third time I say so in this game (look at it right in the quote above, and you don't mention this stance as you keep going on that Sakura tirade). "But look, look, she did it too, why aren't you going after her?!"

If in your eyes, what you did isn't scummy, how come Sakura's actions are? Her reasoning makes no sense? How does her reasoning benefit scum?

Why is scumfitz pushing on Syryana so hard when you're calling him out for a shit case? I know why his reasoning is BAD, but it's fairly clear Sakura isn't going to be lynched at this point and he's had many chances to back down off his read. Why would he continue pushing Sakura and drawing your ire?

Nacho - Isn't part of your reasoning for scum reading Syryana that he wasn't joking with you? What do you make of this?

Remind me to show you Syryana and I trolling together sometime.
We recently got out of an awesome game with our opening as TROLL TROLL TROLL in a way that's just a tiny bit ambiguous to people so that it can be taken the wrong way. The idea behind the trolling is that scum respond strangely to trolling because they don't know how to handle irrational behavior from people perceived as good players (Chenoan). We ended up confirming a player as town and scumreading a scum because of said trolling; his trolling here is obvious, it's peacocking. He's just trying to show he's "relaxed"; it's nothing like the trolling I expect out of him.

emotional meltdown. So you know, that's your choice, but I think games are always much more pleasant for everyone when I'm not acting like a lunati

yeah you're no fun
take things too seriously

I did just look back to the nightless game in which I totally remembered it wrong thinking that he didn't catch scum syryana but he did I guess. He just never really gave any reasons.

My awareness of Syryana as town and scum has changed harshly now that we hydra together. I consider myself his mentor!

I seriously don't even know what to say at the moment. I feel a few days out of sync because of RL and I'm not even sure what the case on me is other than people don't think my suspicions of Sakura were warranted.

Tierce I'm going to kill you.

'm not voting him cause he's prickly. I'm voting him because he's doing his damnedest to paint Hana-san scummy (even with mountains of evidence she isn't), he's refusing to do any scumhunting or even consider other targets, his original "questions" on Hana-san had nothing to do with actually finding her alignment. The fitz I remember from Tenements at least gave thought to other possibilities, but this fitz here apparently doesn't give a damn.

He's tunneling like shit and you have scumNacho in the bush. Why aren't you afraid of me getting away?

There's that Syryana case that I need to go through more deeply.

Tierce I'm gonna kill you. You'll get more soon though.....

[Nachomamma8]

Here's some incentive to go read the Nacho case.

He says as he's not even voting me.

[Tammy]

emotional meltdown. So you know, that's your choice, but I think games are always much more pleasant for everyone when I'm not acting like a lunati

yeah you're no fun
take things too seriously

I was joking
If I'm mocking myself I'm usually just in a good mood

[The Rufflig]

am somewhat concerned that her vote seems to be following public sentiment of who is scummy. Following the crowd is not an uncommon trait among scum.

Just keep looking the other way though.

Tags fixed. Those were my words.

---

VOTE: T S O

No case tonight - too tired. Short version is the following the crowd line of thought mentioned earlier bundled with some buddying.

[Tierce]

Power's out at home and my phone battery won't last. Should be fixed by morning.

[Tammy]

@Tammy:

Where did your suspicion of dragonfly come from?

I think the timing of the replace out was odd, but as I noted it could just be a null tell. But mostly yesterday when I was thinking about the game, I kept forgetting about dragonfly, and when I tried to think of her contributions it took me awhile to remember anything she'd done and I had just reread the game the night before. That kind of the always makes me wonder. I do find it odd that she didn't answer your question, and her saying that your posts gave her a town read on you would indicate she read them.

I don't know how suspicious I am of her though, I want to see more from her. But mostly as I was thinking about them and their interactions, I just don't see more than one scum being in that group of three, and would be completely surprised if two were.

---------

I know there are other things I need to read and respond to, but it's late and I'm tired, so tomorrow.

[Tammy]

*kind of thing