NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[geists]

I can't be arsed to look up all the times I've used the term "testing the waters" and wasn't scum.

[KoreanBBQ]

Look it all up and post here and I won't doubt you for the rest of this game

[Bert]

You looked up gravitas before, so you can do this!!

[geists]

p much right after you voted me. I figured it was odd that you were still misreading me, and apparently strongly enough to vote me. I was having reservations bc I couldn't see the scum motivation in starting said wagon on me but then I changed my mind after I started pushing on you

but in light of what F-16 and GIF are saying I'm having doubts AGAIN and thinking you might be town after all @_@

You've made some noise about how much harder it is to sort people in a large game. It requires different and faster strategies.

[Sakura Hana]

Well iirc im already voting SC so i guess we're good on that.

I think...

who am i voting again?

[pieguyn]

so if you agree it's harder to sort people in large games, why are you surprised that I'm not able to sort people at the same level you're used to seeing from me?

10. pieguyn SonOfZeus - He's not doing some stuff that I am used to seeing him do when he's town, particularly cross-checking his reads with other players and frequently asking people what they think about other players' posts. The Sakura interactions didn't feel quite right somehow.

Not nearly to the extent you usually do IME.

the first sentence is basically this. especially considering I am doing what you mentioned, just not "to the extent I usually do"

we've been back and forth on the second sentence but I still don't get, considering Cabd said you apparently fabricate reads to get reactions, why you'd assume my push on sakura was scum motivated. like remember in IN how you-Cabd faked a "scumslip" on me to get my reaction? this is basically the same thing as that. though now that I'm thinking about it again I remember I had massive amounts of paranoia of you two most of D1 bc of that, so I might be in the wrong here 0.0

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

TOWN+

1. Tammy – Obvious town
2. geists (fferyllt + Natirasha) – Town based on ffery’s Nacho-push, and later reactions. Nat hasn’t posted as much but it may be a good sign considering he is better scum player.
3. pieguyn – I like his pushes and stance changes on Sakura, and DOMO, and his later reaction to Thor and the pushback. I see a lot of parallels between his back and forth here and his back and forth with Varsoon in Touhou.¹
4. Bert(Rofl) – Bert’s posts feel like town-Bert. His elaboration on Generic and Sakura reads made sense as did his push on Geists.
5. Desperado – I like his attack on me based on BB:HoH. It makes sense from town-Desp and not much from scum-Desp especially when he forgot all about it and tried to get me to vote SC.

TOWN

6. DOMO – His pushes and paranoia, and activity seemed genuine and unlike scumgame.²
7. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) – Their push against Stuffed as well their uncertainty seemed genuine. Still don’t like the lack of reading my posts though.
8. Generic – Some of his reactions and pushes seems townish but I am somewhat paranoid about this read.³
9. Ser Arthur Dayne (pitoli) – Not sure but Tammy said he is town so I’ll say town for now.
10. zMuffinMan (talah) – Very different from his scumgames and recent posts feel more like towngame.⁴
11. Sakura Hana – Read on Thor seemed townish. Will need to check meta to see what she is capable of as scum.⁵

LEFTOVERS/YET TO BE SORTED

12. Cephrir – Read stale due to inactivity⁶
13. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) – Will explain later⁷
14. goodmorning
15. MafiaSSK (roflwaffles)
16. BROseidon
17. Norlkaz (Brian Skies)
18. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) – Will sort on Day 3.
19. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) – Tunelling is annoying. I can’t objectively judge someone that is tunneling me right now.

---

Pretty sure everyone in my town+ pile is town. I'll double check with Pieguyn's meta to make absolutely sure. As for the rest, I am not yet really confident in any of those reads. Will probably have to do it tomorrow.

[geists]

so if you agree it's harder to sort people in large games, why are you surprised that I'm not able to sort people at the same level you're used to seeing from me?

10. pieguyn SonOfZeus - He's not doing some stuff that I am used to seeing him do when he's town, particularly cross-checking his reads with other players and frequently asking people what they think about other players' posts. The Sakura interactions didn't feel quite right somehow.

Not nearly to the extent you usually do IME.

the first sentence is basically this. especially considering I am doing what you mentioned, just not "to the extent I usually do"

we've been back and forth on the second sentence but I still don't get, considering Cabd said you apparently fabricate reads to get reactions, why you'd assume my push on sakura was scum motivated. like remember in IN how you-Cabd faked a "scumslip" on me to get my reaction? this is basically the same thing as that. though now that I'm thinking about it again I remember I had massive amounts of paranoia of you two most of D1 bc of that, so I might be in the wrong here 0.0

1. I don't fabricate reads as town to nearly the extent that Cabd implied, and as I said earlier, when I do it's usually a fabricated scum read, not a town read. My interests lie as much or more in what other players do than in how the player I'm supposedly scum-reading reacts. And even then, I'm far more likely to exaggerate a read than fabricate one. And on the gripping hand, I don't do any of this at ms to nearly the extent I have done elsewhere because the considerations that go into faking or exaggerating a read in this environment are complex. Maybe in time.

2. That was Cabd's "scumslip", not something I would have done if I were playing alone. I've developed the reflexes to follow gambits like that, but at MS I very seldom initiate them.

[Garuda]

Re: misrep, I don't think my bungling of events changes things any.

yes it does. your attack on me couldn't have been a chainsaw if my attack on Cephrir came after your attack on me

Re: us attacking you in order to chainsaw cephrir, there are a multitude of ways Thor and I could handle you attacking Cephrir as scum. Attacking you is probably the dumbest way to handle it. We didn't attack you solely off vote, which was explained. Why do we need a better push than you? We had a good feeling about the push, and so we made it. Are there better targets in thread? Probably, but we will get there eventually.

why is attacking me the dumbest way to handle it? also, what are better ways to handle it?

I disagree it's necessarily dumb. first off, you know from imperishable night I get swayed off track easily. thus, attacking me seems like it could easily knock me off course with Cephrir, especially when I've never even had a 1v1 with you (or even played with Thor), or had to experience an attack from either of you, before. it's the shock factor that does it and such a thing can thus be a quick and easy maneuver which can have surprising results ("omg Thor's attacking me wjhlakjhg I'm gonna get fucked" and then I forget all about Cephrir)

that, plus your reason for pushing on me doesn't seem like it'd be hard to make up either. so this scenario seems very plausible IMO

second, I get the impression if you think my idea of what you did is dumb you'd have no problem with saying it immediately. so why do you air this now after I've been pushing on you for a while? it makes me think you're BS'ing

If you want to ignore the fact we are two separate people, you can't ignore the fact that we occasionally do things that wouldn't be the first choice of either head.

this isn't alignment indicative. you can do things that wouldn't be the first choice of either head as both town and scum. why do you bring this up?

also, while we're going on and on about "Thor's usual playstyle", tell me if Thor chainsaws plz?

Attacking you when you are attacking a partner is generally a bad way to handle things because it means that both partners are drawn into the shit show instead just one. A confused townie isn't likely to shut down like you suggest, a confused townie is more likely to lash out at those attacking them. Better ways to handle it include, but are not limited to: 1) ignore it. Cephrir is a big boy and can handle you by himself, and people will likely ignore your push anyways. 2) join you in attack against cephrir, since that will make you feel validated and feel I'm seeing what you're seeing. Disband the wagon later with meta reasons. 3) come up with a case om another one of your scumreads, build more support there, watch you follow. All three of these things are generally difficult things to track association wise and are less likely to backfire.

You asked why we chose you to attack over stronger scumreads of individual reads.

Don't know.

[Garuda]

To elaborate on my bert townread - he's replaced in and made a flurry of catch up posts that strikes me as natural. I have no idea how balanced a game bert has, so my read is not set in stone, but I saw no reason for alarm when I took a look at his ISO, quite the opposite in fact.

Recall that when SSK replaced in, he immediately posted a read list which I didn't like, that didn't feel natural.

I don't disagree (as I alluded to earlier), but I wasn't expecting you to come to the read so easily.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Wrong adorable hydra, apologies.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Oops last post I meant *townreading me*, not *townreading*

OK, so basically I think Casso/Nacho usually like can't resist buddying or some kind of charm/charisma exuding out naturally

I don't feel anything but robotic walls this game

People generally don't find me convincing until I find them something to convince them of. I occasionally drift through a day 1 similar to this day and unfortunately no one finds waffle nacho as charming or dashing as conviction nacho.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am about to go to bed but Nacho, comments on my readslist would be appreciated.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Someone answer my question about what the relevant content for me to read over the past 30ish pages is.

You have recent scumteam experience with zmuffin. What do you think of his play?

His apathy is coming off town to me, if anything. :/

Why is that? Why do you think scumMuffin wouldnt be likely to pull the apathetic card?

Do you know of any games where scum-zmuffin was apathetic? The thing about his apathy that doesn't feel scummy to me is that he's unapologetic about it.

So's Desp.

:/

I'm starting to hate this game.

I can see where he wouldn't have direction this game, but I have trouble seeing him regard the game way that Thor currently is because he has the tendency to pick up on the cooler things going on.

Yes he does. The sardonic wit is missing and I'm not laughing out loud at the occasional post.

I can't think of any apathetic muffin games except for one where he was town and activity was shit. In that game, he was much more apologetic about his lacking, kept promising catchups and taking the lead roles and not quite getting there: he's lacking that in this game. I also feel like the way muffin approaches his scumgame is similar to how cabd used to before he got lazy and started slacking; his scum game looks pretty different when he plays and it's hard to peg him for being scum based on the big stuff like "lurky, aggressive". So this apathetic but not apathetic state is cause for alarm.

[Casso the King of Seals]

the way you all are talking about how he/she is nothing like him/her as town or scum in past games

leads me to believe that he/she is intentionally playing differently to meta-dodge

i mean, that's my first inclination in my head when you say that

it's like how one time I went all serious just because I wanted to give them a different look in one of my past scum games. Change it up, you know?

I mean, muffin could just play up his town meta if he/she wanted to, probably, right? Plus, all the attention being given after he/she won a scum game lately and got nommed?

just my thoughts, as I have no past experience with him/her

This actually isn't too far off from my thoughts, Bert.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'm probably going to pass out now. I might not be able to post again until Monday, don't be sad.

The seal wagon is not a bad wagon at all. (Yes, Bert, in hard boiled I realized for sure nacho was scum for unnatural sorting of me, but it was mostly based on something I would have expected town him to pick up on about town me. I'm not so sure muffin is as easy to sort as I am, and it seemed really clear to me that nacho was maneuvering around who was obvtown to the crowd and creating noise that I didn't think he would create.)

(Speaking of Nacho, maraca's crap "gambit" had nothing to do with pushing me to look obvtown and if you are somehow town you're looking at that far too simplistically. Mara betrayed her underhanded motivations when she said she didn't push me as hard as she planned. You don't "plan" to push people for reactions as town, not in the beginning of the game. And not in the fashion as she did, unless you're a complete amateur, so if you and she will admit she has no clue whatsoever that she's doing in this game I'll think of stepping back, but in order to gauge reactions on someone you have to know them...you have to know what to push...you have to know some way of reading them. Anyone with a modicum of understanding of m game wouldn't have needed to do that. And her push was not in any way shape or form one to figure out my alignment, it was purely to piss me off, purely to discredit me. That is 100% evident by the ensuing days, so you comparing it to hard boiled is flawed because the motivation was not the same or even close.)

You're probably scum though so :/

I'm still not voting stuff crust because bar soon amused me.

Not voting muffin.

Surprised Sakura isn't a thing.

Would probs go back to voting BBQ, but meh.

Let's lynch maraca though!!!

Maras scumgames are interesting because they look pretty different from one another and are hard to peg down in most explanations of meta. They differ so strongly I think because Mara plays mostly from the heart as scum (like I've been doing recently), and she wouldn't lead out the planned emotional manipulation effort to discredit you. Cabd could plan it lately, but that's where Hard Boiled comes into play again: it was a poignant as hell experience where Cabd and I were basically wondering what the fuck we did to deserve an attack against of us that held that ridiculous tendency and laughed because we were both good scum players but we realized deep deep down we were completely and supremely fucked. I cannot see Cabd being so idiotic or suicidal to endorse or suggest a plan that went down that horror road ever again. I can see Mara making a weird push on you as town.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Falcon - you're not disappointed in me at all for having a meltdown and getting pissed? You don't think it's awful of me at all to be voting mc maraca for what from an outside view could be omgus?

I wish you hadn't but I understand why you did. I skimmed through your ISO in Mafia behind the Maiden after seeing it being referenced in Black Flag to get a perspective of your playstyle. It seems to be a darker side of your play that rarely resurfaces now and MC's attack was likely a trigger either intentional or unintentional.

If I had a townread on them, I would've tried to get you to stop but I don't.

On another note, I've been wanting to play a game with Norlkaz for a while so looking forward to what he has to say.

He's not actually that cool, sorry to disappoint

[Casso the King of Seals]

Sakura and pieguy are where I'm leaning atm.

either i'm super bad at reading pieguy or he's town here

if casso doesn't happen, i could get behind a sakura wagon, but really, it would be more of a policy lynch than anything for me

i think i have too many town reads atm

No you're probably fine

[Casso the King of Seals]

You need to tell me why scumcabd fakeclaims masons at like L-8 or some shit like that with two superstrong players (nacho and ffery) townreading the fuck out him, with a backup townasfuck read from generic.

Numbers matter. Nacho's slot had a wagon on him and plenty of people were attacking ffery. Town or not, your wagon wasn't going to get derailed on their word.

If I couldn't get things done with people suspecting the shit out of me, I would be experiencing a lot of sad days where Nacho didn't get his way.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Also

Unvote

because fferyllt's mad at me.

Don't like this. ffery has consistently been throwing her entire weight to back up someone playing blatantly anti-town regardless of their affiliation.

You are harping too hard on this point; net result of gambit from scumMC side is locking down Tammy vote on scum and making Tammy useless for like a day when it's likely she would be useless anyways. So the antitown effects you are talking about actually aren't that horrible.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Uh what? She does that a ton as both alignments, her coming out that she fabircated a town read on me to gage reactions would hardly be suprising.

huh
this is one reason why I don't buy her reasoning for thinking my 1v1 with Sakura is scummy
like I had a general idea that was similar to this but confirming she explicitly fabricates reads as town to get reactions makes me even more confident 0.0

Fabricated interactions feel fake. Fake feels scummy. Hence, if you fake interactions, you should not be surprised that they seem scummy as hell to others.

[Casso the King of Seals]

TOWN+

1. Tammy – Obvious town
2. geists (fferyllt + Natirasha) – Town based on ffery’s Nacho-push, and later reactions. Nat hasn’t posted as much but it may be a good sign considering he is better scum player.
3. pieguyn – I like his pushes and stance changes on Sakura, and DOMO, and his later reaction to Thor and the pushback. I see a lot of parallels between his back and forth here and his back and forth with Varsoon in Touhou.¹
4. Bert(Rofl) – Bert’s posts feel like town-Bert. His elaboration on Generic and Sakura reads made sense as did his push on Geists.
5. Desperado – I like his attack on me based on BB:HoH. It makes sense from town-Desp and not much from scum-Desp especially when he forgot all about it and tried to get me to vote SC.

TOWN

6. DOMO – His pushes and paranoia, and activity seemed genuine and unlike scumgame.²
7. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) – Their push against Stuffed as well their uncertainty seemed genuine. Still don’t like the lack of reading my posts though.
8. Generic – Some of his reactions and pushes seems townish but I am somewhat paranoid about this read.³
9. Ser Arthur Dayne (pitoli) – Not sure but Tammy said he is town so I’ll say town for now.
10. zMuffinMan (talah) – Very different from his scumgames and recent posts feel more like towngame.⁴
11. Sakura Hana – Read on Thor seemed townish. Will need to check meta to see what she is capable of as scum.⁵

LEFTOVERS/YET TO BE SORTED

12. Cephrir – Read stale due to inactivity⁶
13. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) – Will explain later⁷
14. goodmorning
15. MafiaSSK (roflwaffles)
16. BROseidon
17. Norlkaz (Brian Skies)
18. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) – Will sort on Day 3.
19. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) – Tunelling is annoying. I can’t objectively judge someone that is tunneling me right now.

---

Pretty sure everyone in my town+ pile is town. I'll double check with Pieguyn's meta to make absolutely sure. As for the rest, I am not yet really confident in any of those reads. Will probably have to do it tomorrow.

Muffin lower, cephrir higher, Maraca and morning higher, bro higher, Sakura lower?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Desperado lower.

[Casso the King of Seals]

VOTE: Stuffed Crust

I had some song lyrics for the gasp vote here, but unfortunately forgot them because tired.

[Casso the King of Seals]

And unfortunately I can't even do it

VOTE: Sakura Hana