Mini 1532: Mac's Mini Normal - GAME OVER~

[ICEninja]

I'm REALLY not understanding your vote on me at all.

I have a weak gut scum read on a player. I don't delve much in to said weak scum read because I have more important reads to focus on. Then said player says something that reduced my scum read on him, as I feel like scum at this point would NOT be asking for someone to dismantle a wagon on a player they know to be town.

You now feel I am scum because of this.

I'm obviously missing a connection or logical leap you're making here.

[RadiantCowbells]

Pie is in my triple lynch pool by the way.

Hayato is the #1 and needs to happen first. Me or him, whatever.

VOTE: Hayato

[Aegor]

can anyone with a town read on ICE sum it up for me?

I have not found any of his posts scummy.

Were you the dude who thought I backpedalled when I explained my early case? Were you one of the two guys defending ICE back then?

Yes to the first question. I have defended ICE, yes. I still am.

[Sound of Silence]

I expect that this post answers you as well, Bauss. If not, then you'll probably have to ask your question differently.

That Fferyllt there? Where are you at with your town game? I remember dramatically different play from you when you were town. This feels more like your scum game so far, content/contribution light. As town, you were a champion contributer.

- Bauss -

I don't remember you considering me a champion contributor when our mutual town game was in progress. :/

This kinda surprises me, since so far this game isn't much like most of my town or scum meta. I guess it's holiday meta! My schedule is going to stay crazy for another couple days and then the guests clear out and my time constraints get back to normal.

[Sound of Silence]

@RC, okay.

@SoS: I would like your opinion on Hayato. Experiential is something you have with him.

Did you read Newbie 1449? I picked up two really clear indicators that he was coming from a scum mindset and I didn't pursue them as hard as I should have.

In reading his posts, I've kept half an eye out for something similar, though I think he's a quick study and probably won't make those classes of errors again.

On a surface level, his interactions here seem a lot more spread out and diverse than what I saw in Newbie 1449, but I feel like there's a guardedness to his posts. I modded his first MS game (Newbie 1430), and in that game he was a lot more transparent than what I've seen in his play since then.

This is a top-of-the-head opinion. I'm penciling in some research time for later today or possibly tomorrow.

[frog]

RC/hayato your deal isn't doing either of you much credit. I'm just glad nobody else supports the deal.

@TV: differing reactions is no more odd than you claiming to have so many different tools in your belt. Why can't ICE have been scumhunting elsewhere, as he claims? I don't see how your explanation follows.

[Mac]

XScorpion replaces Mephistopheles!

Vote Count 1.08

Sound of Silence -
XScorpion -
HayatoBL [L-6] - RadiantCowbells,
Aegor -
TunnelVision [L-3] - Sound of Silence, Aegor, ICEninja, frog,
My Milked Eek -
RadiantCowbells [L-6] - HayatoBL,
don_johnson -

ICEninja [L-2]

- My Milked Eek, don_johnson, Xscorpion, TunnelVision, Flameaxe,
Flameaxe -
frog [L-6] - Pieguyn,
Remembrance -
Pieguyn -

Not Voting: Remembrance,

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is

in (expired on 2014-01-03 08:48:07) from now

SUSPENDED.

Mod Notes: hayatoBL is V/LA until the 5th

[ICEninja]

I honestly don't know what to do about this wagon on me. It is the worst wagon built up on me as town to memory, and the people voting me don't even have consistent reasons for voting me.

Flame's reason for voting me doesn't make sense out of RVS, Tunnel's looks super suspicious to me (I'm pretty confident this guy is scum, especially since he is the counterwagon to me), these two players have basically no town minded reasoning for having votes on me.

MME and don both have ridiculously outdated votes, and yet both of them are clinging to old and weak reasoning when there is so much information to analyze instead of tunnel and push on something like this. They both claim that I've twisted their words, when I've done no such thing. MME's original vote on me was 100% meta case, and it was AWFUL meta case at that, so I voted him for it. Any additional reasoning was "he reacted bad". How the fuck would you react to someone voting you for not voting a wagon during the RVS when you cannot remember ever having done that in any game regardless of alignment?

Seriously, make an actual case on me that makes sense, or take your vote off me. It is that simple.

There is one or more scum on my wagon (cough, TV) and I would literally bet the game on it. Wagons with piss poor reasoning don't form on town without some cohesion.

[XScorpion]

Hi
UNVOTE:
Let me read through things and I'll say what I think.

[ICEninja]

For the record, the reason everyone should vote TV is this snippet from SoS:

You did miss something. The thing that drew our vote was TV posting an exhortation that the people tunneling each other start scumhunting when TV had done fuck-all in the way of scumhunting to that point and continued to do fuck-all afterwards. I didn't say why I made the vote because I wanted reactions to evaluate.

Take that then add on the fact that as soon as a wagon started building on him at a point that was, at the time, deadline looming, he drops his vote on the largest wagon for absolutely trash reasoning.

He is the counter wagon to me, who is the largest wagon but has zero votes with legit reasoning behind them.

[TunnelVision]

There is one or more scum on my wagon (cough, TV) and I would literally bet the game on it. Wagons with piss poor reasoning don't form on town without some cohesion.

Great insights. Thanks for catching up.

Pieguyn, you town? If you are, there's at least one scumball on your wagon (and I don't think it's RadiantCowbells.)

In post 202, Mac wrote:
ICEninja [L-4] - My Milked Eek, don_johnson, Mephistopheles


Same goes for you ICEninja. Also, is that ICE like frozen water or ICE like Immigration Customs Enforcement? There's some illegal foreigners in this mix methinks.

Good grief.

- Bauss -

[ICEninja]

You asked me that question in post 212. I responded to it in post 213. What the fuck more do you want from me?

Also, I should add that TV's vote on me definitely seem impacted by OMGUS.

[TunnelVision]

For the record, the reason everyone should vote TV is this snippet from SoS:

You did miss something. The thing that drew our vote was TV posting an exhortation that the people tunneling each other start scumhunting when TV had done fuck-all in the way of scumhunting to that point and continued to do fuck-all afterwards. I didn't say why I made the vote because I wanted reactions to evaluate.

Take that then add on the fact that as soon as a wagon started building on him at a point that was, at the time, deadline looming, he drops his vote on the largest wagon for absolutely trash reasoning.

He is the counter wagon to me, who is the largest wagon but has zero votes with legit reasoning behind them.

This is BS and even SoS knows it. That's why they aren't pushing it. They tossed a vote on me and a wimpy reason to fish for a reaction. I generally, as town, sit back and watch to see what develops on D1 until I have conviction. Then I death tunnel like a rage fueled Juggernaut. SoS knows this, as do I.

[TunnelVision]

You asked me that question in post 212. I responded to it in post 213. What the fuck more do you want from me?

Also, I should add that TV's vote on me definitely seem impacted by OMGUS.

I'm pointing out that you're literally regurgitating a point I made over 100 something posts ago... and using it as a reason why I am scum. That doesn't seem off to you?

[Remembrance]

VOTE: HayatoBL

People need to still answer my question.

[ICEninja]

I'm pointing out that you're literally regurgitating a point I made over 100 something posts ago... and using it as a reason why I am scum. That doesn't seem off to you?

Not at all. I actually agree wholeheartedly that there is scum on my wagon at this moment in time. You joined a wagon that you felt was scum driven, with piss poor reasoning. This actually makes me even more comfortable with my vote.

Too many players are being useless right now. It is frustrating me.

[XScorpion]

Spoiler: P1

anyway i think melphistopheles is the sk because

• but not maf tho

Do we know if there is an SK? I know nothing about the setup.
In my opinion, RVS ends with 18. I will look with suspicion on people who try to keep it going afterward.

Spoiler: P2

Flameaxe 27 RVS vote or not? why?

Seems odd that you've avoided commenting on any relevant reads going on in-thread and instead chosen to continue the RVS.

This. Remembrance's follow up (32) answers the implied question of 'why would you do this' with more questions rather than justification. At this point I would VOTE: Remembrance too.
Not a fan of OMGUS vote by Ice in 34.
For Silence's question in 46, I guess I can understand why Meph saw it as not suspicious, but it seems as good as place as any to start an early wagon. Eel feels town to me here for doing so.

Spoiler: P3

Flameaxe's 58 lacks explanation, and Remembrance's 59's OMGUS vote is fucking terrible.
<this comment made after completing the read> There's a whole lot of nothing on this page, including a useless conversation between TV and Rem. Dislike it a lot. If TV flips scum I might consider this to be distancing between Rem and TV.</this comment made after completing the read>

Spoiler: P4

I like Hayato's 78 a lot, RCow's posts kinda flew by me but it makes me rethink a bit.

Instead I'm voting Mephistopheles. Why do you think that is, Tunnel?

Why is it? I'm eagerly awaiting the explanation.
More townness from Hayato in 81. I do like the address to MME about how convincing others about meta reasoning.
Ice unvoting in 84 is a good start but I always dislike when someone is not adding a vote somewhere else to make up for it.
Uh is SoS a hydra? Do I know the heads (probably not but worth asking)?
I can see the reasoning Flameaxe gives about ice-pie in 89 but not sure why Meph's votes are bad. Do you somehow know remembrance is town?
Dislike 90 and 91 from DJ and Campfire. Read the game before you vote, damnit.
Pie's 95 cements to me a feeling that one or both of pie and ice are scum. Still on the fence about which one.
RC's logic in 96 about voting pie doesn't make sense to me considering there seem to be these abstract teams of Eel/RC and ice-pie which formed on the first two pages. Maybe I'm being chronologically challenged here? I can kinda see where RC gets the feeling of 'these guys are definitely scum', but if Ice/pie flip town I think I'd want to lynch RC the day after.

Spoiler: P5

I'm on page 5 now and the reasoning for meph votes is still missing. Gonna keep waiting but I won't be pleased if I don't see something by next page.

ffery and GIF

is this the sound of silence?
Remembrance makes the first towny post in 108 and makes me more suspicious of pie.
I'd join in here with a VOTE: Pie as he moves towards being my scummiest read.
Strange discussion going on for the rest of page 5. Not liking how this is basically conversation between Pie and SoS that no one else is really a part of.
RC's 124 is a bitchy post. I hope you don't act like that when I ask you questions.

Spoiler: P6

I'll wait for flameaxe's next post before I condemn him for anything.
I almost don't want to unvote pie here because RCow is voting him too but I think RCow is just being mean. My scumread on pie at this point is stronger than my dislike of RCow.
Agree with flameaxe in 128 but disliking the lack of content and the long overdue reasoning for meph suspicion. Perhaps I'm being too defensive of my predecessor? Still, missing explanations always bugs me.
DJ's 132 is a fair way to come back from the first post. The Ice vote seems fine but not sure why Hayato gets a bad rep here.
Liking Remembrance more after 135, and not liking TV's lack of content too.
Ice's 136 isn't the worst post ever. I feel better about him at this point.
A bit confused on whether Flameaxe's 89 about bad votes is about Meph or Hayato. I assumed Meph, but either way I disagree.
144 is again making me feel better about Ice and worse about flameaxe. <insert Song of Ice and Fire joke here>
OK I'm just not liking SoS nearly as much any more here. Not enough content, and the conversation with Pie is basically in another language.

Spoiler: P7

Definitely on Ice's side here. Flameaxe's response is bad, and according to Flameaxe, "bad = scummy".
153 sounds like hypocrisy.
Disagree with Meph in 160 but I guess that's just a matter of opinion.
Frog's 162 is a pretty short but concise summary and I think I agree with most of the points. The vote isn't bad either. Liking Frog for town at first sight.
Then Aegor jumps in, and he makes me question my town read on Eel somewhat. I get a bit of a town vibe here. However I am not yet convinced Eel is scum.
165 is awful and cements RC in my scum pile.
Like MME says in 166, I don't see him backing down, so the case has a bit of a flaw (enough to not fully persuade me).
Don't really agree with Aegor that 65 is backpedaling.
Frog is certainly town to me by now.

Spoiler: P8

This page is a bit of a haze to me, not reading into it very deeply but I can see 188 as being coaching.
193 times a million.
Remembrance's 194 has a bunch of things to look at, although not sure where I should put my attention. My eye is caught by "TV is going to start walling soon", which I await to get a solid read on the slot.
Looking at flame's 196 and I guess the only real reason I have to not say his vote is super terrible is that no one has actually questioned it at this point.

Spoiler: P9

For future reference would appreciate if Frog could attach names to quotes so I don't get confused.
SoS's vote in 205 sort of explains itself, which is rather impressive.
Ice finally questions flame's vote in 206 which is way later than someone should have. Assuming the response is 'his votes are bad', I'd like to hear justification on why this a) is true and b) makes meph scum.
Agree with Aegor in 207.
TV's 212 doesn't have enough content to make up for the lurking. I don't think is scum on Ice's wagon, and I think RC is the scum on Pie's. As for remembrance, I don't feel as strongly about him being scum as earlier but there's still an inkling.

It's a lot of words with not a lot behind them.

Well, seeing as he replaced and (and was quite lazy before doing so), this is true but doesn't make him scum.
I agree with DJ in 220 about being flexible but at the same time disagree about having a strong conviction. Tunneling early and/or only focusing on one player seems like not the best idea at any stage (not exactly what DJ meant but this is how I feel).
So yeah unless there are miracles that happen or something Pie's 223 vote for one of my top townreads puts him as my most likely vote for the rest of the day. We'll see if something changes but very doubtful.

Spoiler: P10

Eek's weird posting pattern I think comes from his time zone and the sketchy connectivity to the website that was happening.
Rem 239 vote i dislike. I feel I should reconsider the frog read at this point but I don't think so.
Wow I read this page and didn't write much. Okay so basically I would summarize as saying I think there is a lot of TvT going on here especially considering the miscommunications between frog and aegor. Why can't we be friends, everyone?

Spoiler: P11

Ice's 250 is a good way to start the page. Like the accusation at DJ who moves away from my town read.
Pie's posts have been a little tough to read. That said, anything to do with 'the LIST' feels like bullshit to me and I don't like pie at all for using it as a case in any way.
My Frog town read is finally shaken off, and it's actually because of the stupid AtE in 263. Seriously? Seriously?
Pie is gunning VERY HARD for frog here and I am a little worried if it's because Pie knows Frog can get mislynched very easily at this point.
Hayato please please put names in your quotes it will help a lot.
Hayato's 273 helps convince me to stay on Pie and not vote frog.

Spoiler: P12

Haha I read Frog's paragraph about 'reaction test' and was about to say it was stupid as fuck then read the last two sentences.
Flame please join the group of people who need to add names to the quotes because it's confusing as fuck trying to read. Obviously disliking the Hayato vote.
Reiterating here at 283 that this test is stupid as fuck.
Like the Ice vote in 295 although I don't think the vote on TV is bad.

Spoiler: P13

Its only D1, and our play so far doesn't warrant a town read from anybody

Probably the biggest point TV has made that I agree with.
Remembrance's 305 rubs me the wrong way. I don't agree with that strategy at all.
Aegor's vote in 321 is fine.
RC's 324 is terrible. Quicklynching has no benefit to town, and it's not so late that a replacement won't be helpful.
Because there is a replacement, here I will switch my vote to VOTE: RCow, although if there is no TV content by page 16 I will probably move it to TV.

Spoiler: P14

342 puts flameaxe near the top of my scum list. Is that some kind of bullshit reaction test, or are you actually scum?
By 347 I'm definitely moving to VOTE: TunnelVision. "Hidden scumhunting", which is basically what he is doing, is totally useless to the rest of town, and an easy way to stay lazy and out of sight from everyone else.
I dislike Remembrance's 349 for assuming everyone has a binary read on Rem; I think many players (including myself) are closer to null than one way or the other. Looking at my own reads list (which I've been updating as I read), you're pretty much around the middle.

Spoiler: P15

First few posts confirm my suspicions that it's mostly null reads on the Rem slot.
Ice's 354 is bad, but Flame voting for Ice in 356 is even worse.
More TV hypocrisy in 358. Real "champion contributor" there.
Eek's 369 is not an acceptable return to the thread and moves Eek down my list.

Spoiler: P16

Would like to hear RC's reasoning behind voting Hayato and not pie.
Kinda skipped over this page cuz I'm a bit eager to start. However,

You joined a wagon that you felt was scum driven, with piss poor reasoning.

This is definitely a good reminder. In 212 TV claims there is scum on Ice's wagon if he is town, yet he is now on this wagon. I do not understand this logic, probably because TV is not sufficiently transparent enough in their thoughts.

My final vote is placed on VOTE: TunnelVision. I cannot tell whether or not TV is scumhunting because TV only seems to be giving reads when necessary rather than voluntarily, and has not contributed for the majority of the game. Now TV is posting more often since there are more votes on them. I think TV is scum.

In summary,
Town feels:
------------------------------
Hayato
Ice
Frog
Eek
Silence
Aegor
DJ
Remembrance
Pie
Flameaxe
RCow
TV
------------------------------
Scum feels

VOTE: TunnelVision for clarity.

[XScorpion]

So that took 3 hours :X
If you have any questions let me know.
TV, why don't you share what you think about everything before you die?

[TunnelVision]

Not at all. I actually agree wholeheartedly that there is scum on my wagon at this moment in time. You joined a wagon that you felt was scum driven, with piss poor reasoning. This actually makes me even more comfortable with my vote.

This is bad and you should feel bad. Just becuase I suggest there is scum on a wagon doesn't mean the wagon is scum driven or that the wagon is good/bad. To say that like its gospel is either a blatant misrep or a lack of understanding of how scum can/will play. Its typical for scum to opportunistically slide a vote onto a wagon at a point that it feels comfortable/non attention grabbing. Early on, when it doesn't have momentum... mid range, in the "butter zone"... when a deadline is approaching and "we have to lynch somebody." These are some common examples. They'll lack reasoning, scum hunting, conviction , or anything that generally resembles town behavior.

Scorpion should also feel bad for echoing this. You don't think scum would ever slide and park a vote onto a scum buddy early on D1 when that wagon didn't have any real steam? You think that ICE as town would look at his own wagon, agree that somebody on it is probably scum, and then laaa-dee-daaa ignore that notion for several pages... only to reiterate the sentiment and redirect it onto the guy that suggested it?

Srsly, like wtf is going on here.

- Bauss -

[TunnelVision]

I don't remember you considering me a champion contributor when our mutual town game was in progress. :/

You had a LOT of posts. Lots of chatter. Engaging the player base. Talking, exploring, etc. Whether I liked your content or not, there was a vast amount of it. Now, in a recent game you were scum... everybody kept saying "This must be scum Fferyllt, she just doesn't post much." And, I didn't get it until I reread on you and dug a bit farther. It seemed pretty apparent, that when you're scum, you def post less frequently and engage other players significantly less.

- Bauss -

[TunnelVision]

So that took 3 hours :X
If you have any questions let me know.
TV, why don't you share what you think about everything before you die?

I don't do full reads lists this early in the day, or at this stage. Too much info for scum to have all at once. If you have a specific question, please ask.

- Bauss -

[XScorpion]

So that took 3 hours :X
If you have any questions let me know.
TV, why don't you share what you think about everything before you die?

I don't do full reads lists this early in the day, or at this stage. Too much info for scum to have all at once. If you have a specific question, please ask.

- Bauss -

I don't know what the time frame is going to be like; for all I know, once pie's replacement comes in, we only have a couple days before the day ends. You need to give that list before you get lynched. It may even save you from dying.
At this point you should have a full read list in your mind (except perhaps on my slot since it's been absent basically all game). I think your reads list would help town more than scum. Why do you disagree on this?

[XScorpion]

Scorpion should also feel bad for echoing this. You don't think scum would ever slide and park a vote onto a scum buddy early on D1 when that wagon didn't have any real steam? You think that ICE as town would look at his own wagon, agree that somebody on it is probably scum, and then laaa-dee-daaa ignore that notion for several pages... only to reiterate the sentiment and redirect it onto the guy that suggested it?

The sentiment is primarily of interest because you are the one who claimed there is scum on his wagon if he is town, yet you are now voting him. I need you to tell me who on the wagon is scum if he is town.

[TunnelVision]

RC/hayato your deal isn't doing either of you much credit. I'm just glad nobody else supports the deal.

@TV: differing reactions is no more odd than you claiming to have so many different tools in your belt. Why can't ICE have been scumhunting elsewhere, as he claims? I don't see how your explanation follows.

He sure was doing other stuff, I don't dispute that at all.

Behaviors/actions are pretty solid and its why I like to focus on them. Somebody does something, and they can't take it back. Its there, on the page, immortalized in black and white. What they can do, is try to explain why/how or whatever the reasoning is for that behavior. So, we get insights into their motivations, by looking at their behaviors and then comparing them to what they say, what we believe, etc.

So the actions of ICE and Pie in response to the same question from me, were totally different. ICE's explanation was essentially, "I was doing other stuff." Great. But, I never said he wasn't. Go reread what I said to him directly, and his responses with that framework in mind and let me know if anything else seems off to you.

- Bauss -

[TunnelVision]

Scorpion should also feel bad for echoing this. You don't think scum would ever slide and park a vote onto a scum buddy early on D1 when that wagon didn't have any real steam? You think that ICE as town would look at his own wagon, agree that somebody on it is probably scum, and then laaa-dee-daaa ignore that notion for several pages... only to reiterate the sentiment and redirect it onto the guy that suggested it?

The sentiment is primarily of interest because you are the one who claimed there is scum on his wagon if he is town, yet you are now voting him. I need you to tell me who on the wagon is scum if he is town.

That's not how this works. If he's town, there is a high probability that somebody in the wagon at that point is scum. I don't know who, and I don't have strong reads on any of those players... but I believe from experience that one of them is scum. Just like I believe that one of the lowest count posters is also scum. Its a probability only, not a read.

I also believe that one of the least active players is likely to be scum. And that one of the players on Pies wagon at that point, is scum. All from a probability perspective. These are not based on actual reads.

- Bauss -