NY 171: An Education in Telling Jokes (Game Over!)

[Untrod Tripod]

yeah I mean she's lurkaderping and it's bad

[Yates]

That'll do.

Right. So this is your case:

Mala is lurking
Mala voted for mollie instead of Zek
Mala claimed she would vote Zek but didn't because "no quick lynch"

Am I missing anything else? I mean...

1. Mala has claimed to be sick thus not posting. I have been sick thus not posting. *shrug* Is this uncharacteristic for her? I'm not sure I've played a whole game with mala and if I have I don't know her meta. Outside of meta, I read this as null.

2. Do you know something about Mollie's alignment the rest of us don't? Point being - just because she didn't vote for Zek [or was even wrong about his newb label] doesn't mean she's wrong about Mollie. I'm not scum reading mollie but wtf do I know?

3. I'll give a minor scum point for the no quick lynch claim - but only because Zek ended up being scum.

@pisskop

- Do you have anything outside of meta on Marquis [and possibly the bitching]? One game isn't super convincing.

[Porochaz]

Well he had already claimed.

However no, my case really has fuck all to do with any of the reason you just gave.

The case is that she lightly defended Zekrom all day 1 with the case of "he's new, let him off..." then changed her stance day 2, but didn't put any money where her mouth is. ie. expressed suspicion on someone but voted someone else. Which is a fairly classic scum move. From her earlier stance, it was a bit of a 180, scummy due tot he circumstances in that Zekrom was obviously going to be questioned due to the missing nightkill. She tried to distance herself from him but lead another wagon, one in which she didn't make a legitimate argument for but kept enough of a door open to lynch her partner if she needed to.

Now how you got the conclusions you did out of my post confuses me. I mean I am currently assuming you did not read the thread, mala's iso or even the posts I quoted. Because even if you disagreed with the post, you would not have come to those conclusions. I mean its either that or you are scum panicking because I am about to get your partner lynched.

[PeregrineV]

@Poro- I have a slight townread on you, but not wanting to lynch Zekrom day1 is not a scumtell. Nor is a vote for Mollie. Is there anything else that you want to add to the case?

[PeregrineV]

Just now saw 1777. I'll check her ISO again, but other than low activity, don't find her scummy. Maybe I'll look at some of her scum games, but first feel is town.

[Yates]

Well he had already claimed

Well yeah but hasn't Marquis "claimed" IC? Or are you talking about the counter claim? I need to recheck the timing on that.

However no, my case really has fuck all to do with any of the reason you just gave.

That's what it looks like based on 1762. At least, that's what I infer from the posts you are quoting. Though I will admit I see where you may have thought I glossed over your scum defense point with the "wrong about his newb label" statement.

The case is that she lightly defended Zekrom all day 1 with the case of "he's new, let him off..." then changed her stance day 2, but didn't put any money where her mouth is. ie. expressed suspicion on someone but voted someone else

Yeah. Like I said, being wrong about a read isn't the same as being scum. Calling someone scummy for questioning a case is scummier than actually challenging a case that doesn't look legit. With that in mind; how do you differentiate between scum defending and someone legitimately questioning a case?

From her earlier stance, it was a bit of a 180, scummy due tot he circumstances in that Zekrom was obviously going to be questioned due to the missing nightkill.

This is another part of your case I have a problem with. You are trying to make it sound like not taking a hard stance on someone on day 1 and then acquiescing to a lynch on that same person later on day 2 is somehow scummy. Reads evolve, dude. I know you know that. So this makes me wonder WHY you would pretend that's somehow a valid point.

Frankly, this looks more like a tunnel than a case. Tunnels are bad because they make it hard to determine alignment on either player for the rest of us.

She tried to distance herself from him but lead another wagon,

one in which she didn't make a legitimate argument for

but kept enough of a door open to lynch her partner if she needed to.

The bolded is what really catches my attention. A simple ISO clears that up in a jiffy:
First, 1145 is clearly an OMGUS vote. Whatevs.

Second, 1233 shows a Mala tunnel starting on Mollie. [look familiar?]

Third, 1326 is a meta argument. Agree or disagree with the read, it's a legitimate reason for a vote.

Finally, in trying to read Mala in context [specifically 1326], I noticed that tman is playing pretty much the same game as mala only - to his credit - he has been posting. What I mean by "same game" is that he was pretty dialed in to Marquis on Day 1 [tunnel] and only moved to the Zek wagon in post 1345 because it had more traction. I point this out because I think we share a Townish read on Tman

.

Actually, finally FOR REAL, I hate that you made me defend a lurker by questioning the legitimacy of your case. I also have a slight Town read on you but that read is anything but solid. Just because I'm lazy and/or don't remember; what are your reads on Nik and Marquis?

[pirate mollie]

chainsaw moar, yates

my case on mala is the fade, subsequent lack of commitment except to omgus me with a vote and the soft defense of zekrom. plus cabd had her as scum too!!!

[pirate mollie]

not to mention the why me fry me post

[Yates]

chainsaw moar, yates

I think you don't know what a chainsaw is.

[pirate mollie]

I thought it was when 1 scumbuddy hard defends another 1

mebbe you shld teach meh

[pisskop]

Do you have anything outside of meta on Marquis [and possibly the bitching]? One game isn't super convincing.

Whats the alt of Maquis?

Also she and nikanor are scumz.

[Untrod Tripod]

I thought it was when 1 scumbuddy hard defends another 1

mebbe you shld teach meh

kinda

The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".
The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.
The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.
The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.
UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

[Untrod Tripod]

PS LET'S LYNCH FUCKIN MALA OMG

[DeathNote]

Everyone should stop derping around and pick a wagon. There are plenty of good lynches today.

I completely agree that Mala is likely scum based off interaction with Zek. I still think Marq or nikanor are good lynches as well.

While on the subject of buddy tells, I really think that Marq bussed the shit out of Zek.

vote: Mala

Only because I think UT and Poro are town and I would rather be voting a scum read of mine with town then a scum read of mine with unknown.

[pirate mollie]

I thought it was when 1 scumbuddy hard defends another 1

mebbe you shld teach meh

kinda

The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".
The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense.

In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.
The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.
UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

wrt the bold, okay so it is not specified to defending a scummate but other than that do you think that I am wrong in thinking that is what yates is doing?

[Untrod Tripod]

eh

I'm not super into trying to catch multiple scum at once, so I kind of want to see what mala flips and then reevaluate

let's focus on lynching the one scum first

[pirate mollie]

okay so if she flips town then where are you looking at?

[Untrod Tripod]

still Marquis

[Untrod Tripod]

that's just my gut reaction based on my current reads

I'd have to reread today and so how her lynchwagon went and then go from there

[Yates]

Whats the alt of Maquis?

Wait. Marquis is an alt? This would be good info.

mebbe you shld teach meh

If you are going to accuse me of something, at least know what you are accusing me of. A chainsaw is defending a scum buddy by attacking your scum buddy's attacker. This is a very good example of precisely why I'm questioning the legitimacy of this wagon. People are throwing crap around on what looks like an easy lynch that's gaining traction and I'm going to call you out on it. If mala get's lynched and flips scum? Fine. I'll probably look bad for it but whatever. If mala gets lynched and flips Town, I want to know who is the scum on the wagon because it isn't

always

the driver.

I still think Marq or nikanor are good lynches as well.

What do you think of mollie and RC?

PS LET'S LYNCH FUCKIN MALA OMG

Are you off the Marquis is scum kick? Also, do you know Marquis' alt? Also also, what's your opinion on RC?

Basically, I'm voting in the Nik, Marquis, and newly minted scum suspect RC [check ISO posts 53-65 for reason] pool. I'd only vote mala to prevent a no lynch but I'm not liking this wagon, obviously.

I also want to hear more out of Green Crayons and Elyse. I find myself nodding my head a lot when they post but they don't post enough.

[Untrod Tripod]

Are you off the Marquis is scum kick? Also, do you know Marquis' alt? Also also, what's your opinion on RC?

dude, I literally just said I'm still scumreading marquis. like. two posts up.

second, if Marquis is an alt or has an alt it's up to HIM whether or not that becomes public information. stop fishing for that, it's incredibly bad form.

third, I think RC is a fucking idiot and I'd really like them to replace out.

[Yates]

stop fishing for that, it's incredibly bad form.

Really? I was unaware. My bad.

[pirate mollie]

jesus christ ut you cannot tell me that you missed like an obvious thing like this in the above post:

A chainsaw is defending a scum buddy by attacking your scum buddy's attacker.

after that is what I said and he argued that I used it wrong and then you corrected a nuanced aspect to that tell by supplying info from somewhere (you did not reference it) but now he is agreeing with the defo in which it was originally applied

hahlp

[Untrod Tripod]

mollie listen

I'm not going to try to apply relational tells to players based on unflipped players

once mala flips I will reevaluate. until then it's a distraction to me.

[Untrod Tripod]

and it's from the wiki