Open 556: Fire and Ice (Over)

[Moonlight]

Bah, I accidentally quoted that because I was going through their ISOs, looking for mentions of each other. Anyway, since I did quote it, I was wondering if Tricks was indirectly getting me to ignore midget there. >_>

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Tr1ckster (4) - BoroPhil, Moonlight, Baezu, 4 Heads of Insanity
BoroPhil (2) - randomidget, Tr1ckster
Not_Mafia (1) - Finglove
YurikoJasmine (1) - idk
Finglove (1) - YurikoJasmine
Zephyrus (1) - Not_Mafia

Not Voting (3) - Zephyrus, tman2nd, The_Ascended

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is May 22nd, 8PM PST

[tman2nd]

I'm very lazy. But, I know It will be easier to be involved in this game after I push myself to get caught up. It seems I'm not good at handling two games at once. Well, now I'm being replaced in the other game, so I can feel less overwhelmed and only think about this game. If I disappear again after this, I promise I'll replace out. Now, to get caught up. Sorry for my laziness.

[Finglove]

So I'm rereading the whole thread, god help me. This post is my analysis of the first half, i.e. up to page 12. I've tried to pull out a small sample of posts I think are interesting (either individually, or in light of subsequent discussion)

You seem to be trying way too hard to find scumtells in RVS

So it was/is this kind of post that makes me suspicious of NM. The whole point of RVS is to start accusing people of scumtells to get things moving.

Tricky, rubbish reasons are rubbish reasons are rubbish reasons. why does the fact they are early on make a difference?

The borophil-tricky arguments were interesting. I think I'm with borophil in that, although most of our reasoning is going to be somewhat arbitrary (I mean, there's no public/town information yet), there is still a hierachy within the inferior reasoning we have available. For instance,

Moon if I was trickster and I have played games with you where we were buddies as townies and I rolled scum this game I would continue playing the same way with you so that you wouldn't suspect anything. Doesn't this seem super plausible and likely?

All that said, I think Baezu is probs town and just paranoid to pieces. What do you say, Moon?

Trickster is being too friendly with too many people for a properly suspicious vanilla townie, to my mind. And I consider that a better form of reasoning than "was it a joke or a scumtell" RVS stuff.

Part II to follow.

PS: I didn't post this yesterday because I got bogged down - this is a bit of a monster at 25pp and 13 people and D1 scumhunting is hard work!

[Finglove]

He has a valid point, you've been trying to self impose a town bloc with Moonlight and establish yourself as town leader all game.

I am similarly suspicious of the townbloc/leadership from Trick.

I like Boro's FOS, although might be bad since it looks like I'm buddying up with him

@Moonlight That was a bit flippant of me sorry, however it's not productive to have you two conf biasing and constantly congratulating each other in a circle, if one of you is town and one of you is scum it can become fatal late game.

I haven't voted for Baezu because I see no reason in voting her because she voted me.

However, having just ISO'd Zephy, this post slipped me by. This is way too self conscious to have come from town, if you're town, why would Baezu's voting you affect your desire to vote them?

VOTE: Zephy

These two posts of Zephy, particularly taken together, are much too self-aware for my liking. I'm also going to
UNVOTE: N_M
because these catches are more towny than most things I've seen of D1.

Tricks' flip will tell much more than Zeph's though, he interacted with many more people than Zeph when I think about it.

VOTE: Tr1ckster

Ah, the sad demise of the townbloc. It continues:

How would I be certain that you're scum unless I'm scum with you? We both know that's not true.

You tried to redirect attention from Zeph and you assumed the worst of Mastin as she caught up. Your reaction to her scumreading you is what's making me confident though. Town-Tricks would have welcomed that with open arms, just as I did. =/

Are you saying you welcoming it was planned?

FoS Moon

I didn't welcome it because she scumread me for what I perceive to be no town motivated reason whatsoever. Because I expected her to read me correctly. Besides, you know I think very differently from you. I tend to be far more confident and aggressive.. and.. to my detriment.. OMGUS-y. Or at least I expect you do.

I have never welcomed a scum read on me with open arms.

Exactly.

Zeph isn't scum, I don't think.

I'm not passive aggressive.

So a Trick as Scum, Moon as Town narrative fits quite nicely with the observed posting between the two of them. In particular, Moon was careful to point out the limits of the townbloc, and seemed to be keeping alive the possibility of Trick as scum, which I didn't see Trick doing. I was, previously, partially swayed by the early claim, but actually I think on reflection it's probably not alignment indicative. Zeph, I was previously townreading, but having seen those two posts together I find that pretty scummy. So those are probably my two scumreads for now, and since Trick has interacted (and more colourfully) with more people, it makes sense to vote for him today.

VOTE: Trick. [L-2]

[Tr1ckster]

You've never seen me lie about my reads before?

Never seen me institute fake pressure?

You're starting to make me wonder whether I really ever played with you.

I've seen you lie about your reads, sure. But to say that you tried to put pressure on mastin is really hard to believe, there was no fucking way anyone would feel pressured by that lone vote you tossed her way.

Exactly why I needed to toss more than a vote her way.

The funniest thing in this argument of ours is that you say you didn't want an obvious wagon on her because you'd be scumread for it. And now that I'm talking about how bad your vote on her was, you act surprised. By your own logic, why shouldn't I scumread you?

You could misinterpret it that way, yes.

As to your "bigger picture" comment, you mentioned a keyword: "D2". I'm not going to look for the whole scum team on D1, I have learned my lesson about not being a scumhunting god. No one is. I want to see a flip for now, and even if I get killed tonight I'll be fine with it, I've shared each and every thought I've had, I've tried my best with what I've seen.

Uh huh. Yeah.. not debating meta with you. Let's just say if I was reading you based on meta I would be certain you're scum right now.

I'm looking forward to seeing answers to your 547, at least if you're somehow Town I might be able to tell through those interactions, our own isn't really helping. >_>

Uh huh... so ... why can't you read me from our interactions again?

[Moonlight]

Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.

Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.

Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.

To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.

I'd agree with most of this.

I'd like to add that my eye is on Boro and Fin, the former for... a rather.. interesting argument against me, and the latter for a naked vote. Both are null at the moment, however.

However, I would like to say I think midget hasn't really changed much at all, but you're better at noticing this sort of thing than I.

I'm not willing to give Pasch a town read yet, but that might simply be because he's too straightforward for me to read, I think. I'll trust you on this one until I believe otherwise.

4 Heads is going to be a headache just reading their posts.. >.< Although I like seeing their thought processes. Makes me more comfortable with them and I'll give them a town read for now.

Hey Moonlight! Guess who else is with us! Our old buddy randomidget!

I'm worried that Moonlight is scum because he played such a strong game first time round.

We just played a game with him as scum. You'll know if and when he's scum.

That said... why are you bringing up doubt of Moonlight alone? There are four people on the N_M wagon... two of them you've played with before, why Moonlight?

Because I see things that don't fit. I have already explained how your manipulation makes sense as Town only if you thought you could take a lazy road without consequences. Plus. you're way too wary of how you're being read.

If you're seeing similarities between my play in the previous game and this one, you should be after me. Why aren't you?

[Moonlight]

God fucking damn it with the quotes! D: I keep forgetting what posts I've been meaning to reply to.

[Not_Mafia]

@Trickster Why is Moonlight the only person's case you'll respond to and the only person you will explain your reads to? Why is he not scum or VI like everyone else on your wagon? At the very least this is extremely anti-town play

[Tr1ckster]

Because I see things that don't fit. I have already explained how your manipulation makes sense as Town only if you thought you could take a lazy road without consequences. Plus. you're way too wary of how you're being read.

Am I really? Hm. I don't mean to give off that vibe.

If you're seeing similarities between my play in the previous game and this one, you should be after me. Why aren't you?

I don't believe in meta reading you after the very few games we've played.

@Trickster Why is Moonlight the only person's case you'll respond to and the only person you will explain your reads to?

He's the only one trying to make a legitimate case on me. All I see is vibes coming from everyone else. If you can present me with a case anyone else has made, I will gladly respond to it.

Why is he not scum or VI like everyone else on your wagon?

You think everyone else on my wagon is VI or scum? Explain.

At the very least this is extremely anti-town play

Responding to the case made against me is anti-town? Now I'm really confused.

[Tr1ckster]

Also.. I'm sorry I've been absent ... I was horribly ill the past two days. I'm feeling a bit better now, however.

[Not_Mafia]

No,

you

have been mudslinging at everyone scumreading you calling them either scum or VI and when asked to explain your cases and/or to respond to people's cases against you have been obstinately ignoring it all game, which is extremely anti-town.

I have to leave the flat now so I don't have time to go quote farming but we both know that there has been plenty of stuff raised by other people that you have flagrantly ignored, mainly from me and Borophil.

[Tr1ckster]

No,

you

have been mudslinging at everyone scumreading you calling them either scum or VI and when asked to explain your cases and/or to respond to people's cases against you have been obstinately ignoring it all game, which is extremely anti-town.

I have to leave the flat now so I don't have time to go quote farming but we both know that there has been plenty of stuff raised by other people that you have flagrantly ignored, mainly from me and Borophil.

No, we don't both know that, and it's fallacious of you to make that claim. I saw Boro's case, and most of it has already been addressed.

Gimme examples of your claims, please. I don't like baseless attacks.

[Moonlight]

I don't believe in meta reading you after the very few games we've played.

You've lost me here; you implied you see similarities between my play in this game and the one game I've been scum in. If you don't believe I'm scum, then you must believe I've watered down my Town game, which I'd never do.

You excused your inactivity by saying you've been sick (and I hope you stay healthy), but I really wonder if the timing is a coincidence. As soon as I toyed with a Tricks/midget pair, I hear barking and there are no bites. Hmm.

[Tr1ckster]

I don't believe in meta reading you after the very few games we've played.

You've lost me here; you implied you see similarities between my play in this game and the one game I've been scum in. If you don't believe I'm scum, then you must believe I've watered down my Town game, which I'd never do.

What?

For one thing, I refuse to meta read you off of two games.

For another thing.. You would never water down your town game? Explain this, then:

I'm not going to look for the whole scum team on D1, I have learned my lesson about not being a scumhunting god. No one is. I want to see a flip for now, and even if I get killed tonight I'll be fine with it, I've shared each and every thought I've had, I've tried my best with what I've seen.

[Randomnamechange]

A couple of things. 1) I wagon-hop. That's just how I play.
Anyone else finding it odd that Finglove's only two scumreads are the scumreads of the majority of players? Might be just me.

[BoroPhil]

Tricky it is quite incredible that you accuse not of baseless claims and ask for examples when you are happy to fire off baseless claims at me and call it a waste of time when asked to provide examples. you have pointedly refused to interact with me for the past few pages.

[Moonlight]

For another thing.. You would never water down your town game? Explain this, then

That's not watering down my game, it's the opposite. I'm waiting for a flip to tell me I'm on the right track before I take a serious look at associative tells.

In every game I've tried to use associative tells pre-emptively, they've been inaccurate. And every time I've needed someone to put me back on the right track, and they did, and things worked out from there.

I'm liking your "ignore his meta because the games are too few" approach. This way you might actually come up with something that looks legit about how I'm scum in this one. Entertain me, I'm waiting.

[Tr1ckster]

For another thing.. You would never water down your town game? Explain this, then

That's not watering down my game, it's the opposite. I'm waiting for a flip to tell me I'm on the right track before I take a serious look at associative tells.

In every game I've tried to use associative tells pre-emptively, they've been inaccurate. And every time I've needed someone to put me back on the right track, and they did, and things worked out from there.

I'm liking your "ignore his meta because the games are too few" approach. This way you might actually come up with something that looks legit about how I'm scum in this one. Entertain me, I'm waiting.

The only scum read I have on you is associative. I actually think you're probably town. Did I ever say I had a scum read on you this game? I don't believe so. If I read you as scum, I would have my vote on you. Instead, my vote is on Boro, who is scum. He's bringing up already addressed issues in an attempt to distract me and seem town.

[Not_Mafia]

I'm phoneposting so I can't quote but quote Boro's case for me and show me point by point where you've addressed it. And none of these weaksauce "this is nonsense" or "I get bad vibes" non-answers, actual specific game-related responses deconstructing it.

[Tr1ckster]

I'm phoneposting so I can't quote but quote Boro's case for me and show me point by point where you've addressed it. And none of these weaksauce "this is nonsense" or "I get bad vibes" non-answers, actual specific game-related responses deconstructing it.

And N_M is doing the same thing Boro is.

Speaking of which.. do you even have a case on me? I thought you just said you agreed with Boro.

[Not_Mafia]

ISO me now and then tell me I don't have a case on you. Show me where you have addressed what I've been saying about you forcing a townbloc, your buddying, your mudslinging. Show me where you've addressed Boro's case, the majority of the playerlist is scumreading you so you are in no position to be doing this ridiculous and patently untrue "I already addressed it" stalling

[Tr1ckster]

Um. Does anyone else see the irony of this situation?

[Tr1ckster]

No, N_M, I will not do for you the thing you refuse to do for me.

[Not_Mafia]

Why are you contuing this unrepentant refusal to simply show where you've addressed points against you? What possible pro-town motivation do you have in this?